What does it "REALLY" mean that Jesus Christ is the Son of God?
- Thread starter bluto
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Come on Mattathias, it's obvious you and your theology are falling apart. How you say? Because your being "disingenuous" when you say things like this: "This is a chat forum. If it is a requirement of this site to post the book, chapter and verse then it should be stated somewhere."
Or here, "Why don't you call or write Dr.Craig? I'm sure he would be happy to hear from a PhD candiate."
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Or here, "Why don't you call or write Dr.Craig? I'm sure he would be happy to hear from a PhD candiate."
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
-
1
- Show all
I say having the same faith as the Messiah will never fall apart.
There’s nothing disingenuous about it. I’m here to chat. I don’t speak here the way I speak when I write papers for publicaction.
This is me interacting with JAT, not academics.
I really think she should. If not for the sake of Dr. Craig then for the sake of his students and wider audience. At the very least, she’ll learn something from the experience.
There’s nothing disingenuous about it. I’m here to chat. I don’t speak here the way I speak when I write papers for publicaction.
This is me interacting with JAT, not academics.
I really think she should. If not for the sake of Dr. Craig then for the sake of his students and wider audience. At the very least, she’ll learn something from the experience.
-
1
- Show all
Oh please Mattathias, now I know your completely off the rails. What do you think is going to happen when I appear before Jesus Christ (or even you for that matter), is He going to ask me why my so-called ancestors slaughtered others? And if I say, "It's not my fault" what do you think He is going to say? "It is too, why didn't you listen to Mattathais, your out he's in." 
No I had not made any false accusation, neither do I need to retract anything. It is you who needs to abandon your heretical ideas such as this:
"He is not God in a human body. He is a human person."
This is a DIRECT CONTRADICTION of Scripture.
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God (Theos) was manifest in the flesh [a human body], justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. (1 Tim 3:16)
And there will be no need to tell me that the corrupt modern versions have omitted "God". That issue has already been thoroughly refuted by Burgon.
And to further expose your heresy we have another passage (Heb 1:8,9):
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God,even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
"He is not God in a human body. He is a human person."
This is a DIRECT CONTRADICTION of Scripture.
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God (Theos) was manifest in the flesh [a human body], justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. (1 Tim 3:16)
And there will be no need to tell me that the corrupt modern versions have omitted "God". That issue has already been thoroughly refuted by Burgon.
And to further expose your heresy we have another passage (Heb 1:8,9):
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God,even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
-
1
- Show all
I don’t believe “just as the JW’s do.”
If I were wicked I would accuse you of believing “just like the JW’s do” because you believe something the JW’s do. I won’t because I’m not. People who are do that, and refuse to repent, have their place in the lake of fire.
It is a direct contradiction of what you believe scripture says.
Jesus Christ - Jewish monotheist.
Mattathias - Jewish monotheist.
You - not a Jewish monotheist. You won’t understand scripture the way Jewish monotheists do.
If I were wicked I would accuse you of believing “just like the JW’s do” because you believe something the JW’s do. I won’t because I’m not. People who are do that, and refuse to repent, have their place in the lake of fire.
It is a direct contradiction of what you believe scripture says.
Jesus Christ - Jewish monotheist.
Mattathias - Jewish monotheist.
You - not a Jewish monotheist. You won’t understand scripture the way Jewish monotheists do.
1 Corinthians 15:12-28
Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
I believe exactly as the Bible teaches, that God is not Christ and Christ is not God. I ask you, who is God’s Christ that Paul is preaching?
Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
I believe exactly as the Bible teaches, that God is not Christ and Christ is not God. I ask you, who is God’s Christ that Paul is preaching?
-
1
- Show all
Ok Mr. Jewish monotheist! If the Jews understood scripture, why did Jesus "dress them down" at John 8:42-47? Specifically vs42, "Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word." How is it the "Jewish monotheist" in the NT all understood what Jewish said about Himself even at the cost of some of their lives?
I also have a question for you? At Isaiah 6:1-6 who is the Lord that Isaiah saw sitting on the throne? You know, like the last sentence of vs5, "For my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts."
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
I also have a question for you? At Isaiah 6:1-6 who is the Lord that Isaiah saw sitting on the throne? You know, like the last sentence of vs5, "For my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts."
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
-
2
- Show all
The verses or passages you offer is a proof text of Christ humanity and that is not not hard to be understood. The Blasphemy is saying Christ is not God. You ae not well verse of the two nature of Christ, that's it.
Romans 1
1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
Romans 1
1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
-
1
- Show all
Christ Divine Nature according to Peter, the Jew, an apostle of Jesus Christ.
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
-
1
- Show all
What we are reading here is an account of a dispute within Judaism: Jewish monotheist vs. Jewish monotheist. The God of Jewish monotheism is the Father. Is the Father/God himself on the side of the Jewish monotheist who claims to be the Messiah or is the Father/God himself on the side of Jewish monotheists who reject the Jewish monotheist who is claiming to be the Messiah.
Jewish monotheists who refused to believe Jesus said to him, “we have one Father, God himself” (v. 41) - God himself is on our side. He didn’t send you. You aren’t the Messiah.
Jesus told them if it was true that the Father is their God they would believe him. The heavy blow delivered by Jesus was telling unbelieving Jewish monotheists that their God isn’t the Father - God himself isn’t on your side. God himself is on my side. He sent me. I am the Messiah. Your father is the devil.
That’s what it boils down to: Believe the messianic claim of a Jewish monotheist, Jesus of Nazareth - the Father/God himself is your God. Refuse to believe the messianic claim of a Jewish monotheist, Jesus of Nazareth - the Father/God himself is not your God, your god is really the devil.
I don't understand your question.
Isaiah, a Jewish monotheist, saw the Father/God himself in a vision.
My question for you: Do you agree with DesertWanderer that Jesus is not a Jewish monotheist and he doesn’t have a God?
Jewish monotheists who refused to believe Jesus said to him, “we have one Father, God himself” (v. 41) - God himself is on our side. He didn’t send you. You aren’t the Messiah.
Jesus told them if it was true that the Father is their God they would believe him. The heavy blow delivered by Jesus was telling unbelieving Jewish monotheists that their God isn’t the Father - God himself isn’t on your side. God himself is on my side. He sent me. I am the Messiah. Your father is the devil.
That’s what it boils down to: Believe the messianic claim of a Jewish monotheist, Jesus of Nazareth - the Father/God himself is your God. Refuse to believe the messianic claim of a Jewish monotheist, Jesus of Nazareth - the Father/God himself is not your God, your god is really the devil.
I don't understand your question.
Isaiah, a Jewish monotheist, saw the Father/God himself in a vision.
My question for you: Do you agree with DesertWanderer that Jesus is not a Jewish monotheist and he doesn’t have a God?
Ok, regarding what DesertWangere said, (and I am not speaking for him) I know Jesus said at John 20:17, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethern, and say to them, I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God." Obviously, to me Jesus is speaking from His humanity and this brought out at Philippians 2:5-8. At vs6, "who, although He existed as God took on another form which was that of a human being/bondservant at vs7. Like I said, I don't know if DesertWandere knows this, therefore I can't speak for him.
Now, I did make this statement: "How is it the "Jewish monotheist" in the NT all understood what Jewish said about Himself even at the cost of some of their lives?" I meant to type "Jesus" instead of "what Jewish said about Himself, that was my mistake. My point was to show that the Apostle and others died/some of them tortured because they clearly understood about Jewish monotheism and acknowledge Jesus Christ to be God Almighty. This is what Thomas declared to Jesus Himself at John 20:28.
Now, regarding Isaiah 6:1, Isaiah saw the glory of YHWH and there is only ONE time that Isaiah saw the gory of YHWH. the verb Isaiah used for "saw" at 6:1 is (ra 'ah). It refers to the act of seeing in the literal sense, to see with the eyes (as opposted to, for example "machazeh," which is the act or event of an ecsatic "vision")
The Apostle John referes to this event at John 12:37-41. In referring to this event John uses the Greek word ("eddon") which is also a verb referring to the act of seeing with the eyes in the natural sense. I turn you attention to John 12:41, "These things Isaiah said, because (or why), he saw His/Jesus Christ glory, and he/Isaiah SPOKE of Him/Jesus Christ." Jesus Himself make this clear at vs45, "And he who beholds Me beholds the One who sent Me."
You know what is kind of astounding to me? It's when the cults, like the Jw"s, Mormons, the Unitarians especially and some of the others is when they see the word "God" in the Old Testament it "must" mean that it refers to the Father. Well, this is not the case and I can give you hundreds of examples. This one example alone is enough proof to dispel this notion.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Now, I did make this statement: "How is it the "Jewish monotheist" in the NT all understood what Jewish said about Himself even at the cost of some of their lives?" I meant to type "Jesus" instead of "what Jewish said about Himself, that was my mistake. My point was to show that the Apostle and others died/some of them tortured because they clearly understood about Jewish monotheism and acknowledge Jesus Christ to be God Almighty. This is what Thomas declared to Jesus Himself at John 20:28.
Now, regarding Isaiah 6:1, Isaiah saw the glory of YHWH and there is only ONE time that Isaiah saw the gory of YHWH. the verb Isaiah used for "saw" at 6:1 is (ra 'ah). It refers to the act of seeing in the literal sense, to see with the eyes (as opposted to, for example "machazeh," which is the act or event of an ecsatic "vision")
The Apostle John referes to this event at John 12:37-41. In referring to this event John uses the Greek word ("eddon") which is also a verb referring to the act of seeing with the eyes in the natural sense. I turn you attention to John 12:41, "These things Isaiah said, because (or why), he saw His/Jesus Christ glory, and he/Isaiah SPOKE of Him/Jesus Christ." Jesus Himself make this clear at vs45, "And he who beholds Me beholds the One who sent Me."
You know what is kind of astounding to me? It's when the cults, like the Jw"s, Mormons, the Unitarians especially and some of the others is when they see the word "God" in the Old Testament it "must" mean that it refers to the Father. Well, this is not the case and I can give you hundreds of examples. This one example alone is enough proof to dispel this notion.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
-
1
- Show all
It should go without saying that a person who speaks about “my God” has a God. Unfortunately, sometimes it has to be said.
The Apostles are Jewish monotheists, as is the Messiah himself.
Jewish monotheists do not acknowledge Jesus Christ to be God Almighty. Jewish monotheists acknowledge that the God and Father of Jesus Christ is God Almighty. No one else. The Father alone.
Thomas is a Jewish monotheist. He did not declare that a fellow Jewish monotheist is God Almighty. What Thomas acknowledged in his declaration about Jesus is that, finally, he sees the Father when he sees Jesus. (He hadn’t seen that in John 14.)
I like the heading of this chapter in NASB “Isaiah’s vision”. That’s not scripture, but it is the understanding of the translators passed along to assist the reader.
Where was Isaiah when he saw the glory of Yahweh?
Which translation are you quoting from? John 12:41 is not rendered that way in any translation I’ve seen.
John 12:45 makes clear that Jesus is Yahweh’s shaliach. When we see and hear Jesus it is as if we see and hear the one who sent Jesus - Yahweh.
We’ve spoken frequently enough that by now you should know that‘s not what I say.
Would you be offended if I were to say that trinitarianism is a cult?
See my comment above.
The Apostles are Jewish monotheists, as is the Messiah himself.
Jewish monotheists do not acknowledge Jesus Christ to be God Almighty. Jewish monotheists acknowledge that the God and Father of Jesus Christ is God Almighty. No one else. The Father alone.
Thomas is a Jewish monotheist. He did not declare that a fellow Jewish monotheist is God Almighty. What Thomas acknowledged in his declaration about Jesus is that, finally, he sees the Father when he sees Jesus. (He hadn’t seen that in John 14.)
I like the heading of this chapter in NASB “Isaiah’s vision”. That’s not scripture, but it is the understanding of the translators passed along to assist the reader.
Where was Isaiah when he saw the glory of Yahweh?
Which translation are you quoting from? John 12:41 is not rendered that way in any translation I’ve seen.
John 12:45 makes clear that Jesus is Yahweh’s shaliach. When we see and hear Jesus it is as if we see and hear the one who sent Jesus - Yahweh.
We’ve spoken frequently enough that by now you should know that‘s not what I say.
Would you be offended if I were to say that trinitarianism is a cult?
See my comment above.