What are you thoughts on Annihilation?

[Laura798]

Spelling! varuous various

Are you not aware Lucy that the Protestants got the myth of Eternal Conscious Torment from the Roman Catholics, who got it from the pagans?


Most so called "Christian" cults have broken off from mainstream Christianity--that was happeninng as early as the first century! A problem I've observed on the ETC side is a strong need to be right even when confronted with irrefutable evidence to the contrary, as well as basing their beliefs on their own personal opinions rather than the facts that we've repeated here using hundreds of scripture verses. ETC'er on the other hand use the same figurative verse over an over ad nauseum, e.g. , "they will be tormented day and night forever and ever"---ALL fanaticism comes from the isolation of verses."


"1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. " 2 Peter 2: 1-2


"28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. 29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them."--Acts 20:28-30


"3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths."--2nd Timothy 4:3-4

ETC DENIES CHRIST because they DO NOT BELIEVE He paid the penalty of DEATH in our place.

 

[Laura798]

Assuming annihilation is true, what do you say to believers who would choose that over 'heaven'?

JTB, my guess is you believe as do the fathers of this false doctrine that people should be motivate by fear, rather than love.

Take that idea to its logical conclusion--we need simply 'repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" and be SAVED! Not only that we get to have a personal relationship with Him now--we have the power thru him to be transformed into NEW CREATIONS and if that isn't enough we receive the gift of ETERNAL LIFE in Paradise where there is "No more sorrow and no more tears."

What do people fear most in this life, but DEATH?

And don't you understand believing in this is DENYING that Jesus PAID the penalty in FULL in our place by DYING on the cross? "The wages of sin is DEATH"

 

[Laura798]

I brought this fact up previously, a couple of times. We know annihilationism in varuous forms is a cult doctrine.
It was brushed under the rug as I expect it will be again.

(posted in the wrong place)

Are you not aware Lucy that the Protestants got the myth of Eternal Conscious Torment from the Roman Catholics, who got it from the pagans?


Most so called "Christian" cults have broken off from mainstream Christianity--that was happeninng as early as the first century! A problem I've observed on the ETC side is a strong need to be right even when confronted with irrefutable evidence to the contrary, as well as basing their beliefs on their own personal opinions rather than the facts that we've repeated here using hundreds of scripture verses. ETC'er on the other hand use the same figurative verse over an over ad nauseum, e.g. , "they will be tormented day and night forever and ever"---ALL fanaticism comes from the isolation of verses."


"1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. " 2 Peter 2: 1-2


"28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. 29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them."--Acts 20:28-30


"3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths."--2nd Timothy 4:3-4

ETC DENIES CHRIST because they DO NOT BELIEVE He paid the penalty of DEATH in our place.

 

[Magenta]

The question I was posing, though, recall, was: if the purpose [and function] of "the lake of fire" was to "incinerate" ppl into nothingness... then why are these two ppl who've been there for 1000 years already (not to mention, will be tormented day and night unto the ages of the ages, there, from the GWTj and onward according to the text)... why are these two people not "incinerated" already?
It's because "the lake of fire" is not "death" (which will itself be "rendered inoperative" at this GWTj point, after it and hell/hades DELIVERED UP the DEAD)... nor "annihilation"... or any such thing. That's obviously not the function / purpose of "the lake of fire".

Death is the LAST enemy to be destroyed!

The LoF is created for Satan and his angels.

Both are explicitly articulated in Scripture.

 

[JTB]

JTB, my guess is you believe as do the fathers of this false doctrine that people should be motivate by fear, rather than love.

Take that idea to its logical conclusion--we need simply 'repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" and be SAVED! Not only that we get to have a personal relationship with Him now--we have the power thru him to be transformed into NEW CREATIONS and if that isn't enough we receive the gift of ETERNAL LIFE in Paradise where there is "No more sorrow and no more tears."

What do people fear most in this life, but DEATH?

And don't you understand believing in this is DENYING that Jesus PAID the penalty in FULL in our place by DYING on the cross? "The wages of sin is DEATH"

Stop assuming things you have no basis to assume.

And answer the question that was posed, not the one you wanted to hear.

 

[Laura798]

Stop assuming things you have no basis to assume.

And answer the question that was posed, not the one you wanted to hear.

So if my assumption was wrong, I apologize.

Do you believe then that the unbeliever does not suffer eternal conscious torment as the penalty for their sins, but instead receives death as the penalty. In other words are you an Annihilationist?

Ps your question was obviously answered--the reason I assumed you supported ETC was a person who believes in Annihilationism would normally not be asking that sort of question.

 

[Magenta]

What do people fear most in this life, but DEATH?

Indeed, we are told that the reason for people's slavery (to sin) is fear of death. If this were also true of Adam and Eve, as it no doubt was, since Eve was deceived by the lie of Satan which was, "You will not surely die," and this lie, the lie at the heart of the fall of man and corruption of all creation, is being repeated to this very day... if this axiom of Hebrews 2:15 were true of Adam and Eve, one wonders why did they not simply eat from the Tree of Life instead? Even so, we still have believers claiming death is nothing to fear for the unbeliever

 

[cv5]

I believed in eternal torment up until sometime this year. Know what changed my mind to annihilationism? I studied the Bible and allowed the literal language of the scriptures to guide me. That's it. What got me believing in eternal torment was I took for granted the Bible teaches it. I didn't study what hell really is until this year.

I also want to address more of the content of your post.

What you used is called a strawman argument. "Those people believe in annihilation and some cults also believe in annihilation therefore they're illegitimate." It also uses the "causation equals correlation" logical fallacy. I'm basically pointing out that you aren't using sound reasoning.

Furthermore, you never actually debunked annihilationism. The plain language of the scriptures says that unbelievers perish and are destroyed. Why can't you accept that?

Nope. Just pointing out an observation of mine. As to your arguments I must say that you have been crushed underfoot by TDW's exquisite presentation. I would not be so dogmatic unless the case was that overwhelming. And it is.

At any rate we should be out there preaching like never before. You might not like the sound of this but I preach damnation all the time. What other choice do I have?

 

[JTB]

So if my assumption was wrong, I apologize.

Do you believe then that the unbeliever does not suffer eternal conscious torment as the penalty for their sins, but instead receives death as the penalty. In other words are you an Annihilationist?

Ps your question was obviously answered--the reason I assumed you supported ETC was a person who believes in Annihilationism would normally not be asking that sort of question.

Sigh.

Over the past couple years I've heard several Christians say they would rather cease existing, than spend eternity in heaven with a God Who would allow them and the world to suffer as much as they/it have/has.

Assuming ceasing to exist is an option, what do you say to these believers?

 

[Laura798]

Sigh.

Over the past couple years I've heard several Christians say they would rather cease existing, than spend eternity in heaven with a God Who would allow them and the world to suffer as much as they/it have/has.

Assuming ceasing to exist is an option, what do you say to these believers?

JTB, I answered your question. Can you now please answer my question before asking another question? Your second question is a separate issue from this forum: ETC vs Annihilation.

Also, a true Christian would not say that--being a Christian means we trust in God now and in His future promises.

 

[JTB]

So if my assumption was wrong, I apologize.

Do you believe then that the unbeliever does not suffer eternal conscious torment as the penalty for their sins, but instead receives death as the penalty. In other words are you an Annihilationist?

Ps your question was obviously answered--the reason I assumed you supported ETC was a person who believes in Annihilationism would normally not be asking that sort of question.

This has been my opinion on the subject...

I don’t think God ‘sends’ anyone to 'hell' or eternal damnation. Look at it this way. Suppose I built a resort for the homeless, and all I asked was that on their way in the door they acknowledge and thank me for doing so. “Hey man, I really appreciate you doing this” and you’re in the door. Tell me to kiss off, and you can go sit outside on the curb. Am I really responsible for those who choose to sit outside on the curb?

Too, what is hell? Our universe is made up at the subatomic level with clusters of like charged particles, which science tells us should naturally repel each other. They call the unknown factor that keeps it all from exploding "the strong force". There are several theories as to the source of this ‘strong force’, including God’s claim that He holds it all together. Now, on that theory, God claims He spoke it all into being out of nothingness - while science says out of nothingness, kaboom there it is. Are those really 2 different stories?

And then there’s dark matter/energy. Scientific estimates vary, but they hover around the theory that 90% of what makes up the universe, we can’t see, except for how it affects the things we can see. God says there is another realm that we can’t see, other than how it affects what we can see. And He wants His 10% back. Again, are these really unrelated?

God also says that someday He will speak this universe out of existence. Paul describes that moment, saying the elements will melt with fervent heat (2 Peter 3:7, 10, 12). Think of what results when the atom is split – intense heat and fire.

Now, the interesting thing is, that we don’t see the lake of fire (hell) appear until right after this present earth and heavens are de-created.

Could it be that the de-creation of our universe creates the lake of fire?

Could it be that for those who loved this world more than Him, God lets them have it in its natural state apart from Him?

 

[cv5]

Assuming annihilation is true, what do you say to believers who would choose that over 'heaven'?

Annihilation does not work in that sense that's for sure. Inveterate sinners would choose to escalate their sin their entire lives to the greatest degree possible and then just simply wait for the COMFORT and CONSOLATION of a PEACEFUL "lights out". And suicide would solve every sinners problem.

Furthermore, a condemned criminal who was executed under the law and a criminal of the same degree who dies in his sleep peacefully have not paid equally or fully. That's not what the Bible says anyway. It calls for a resurrection and a holy, just judgment.

 

[Laura798]

Sigh.

Over the past couple years I've heard several Christians say they would rather cease existing, than spend eternity in heaven with a God Who would allow them and the world to suffer as much as they/it have/has.

Assuming ceasing to exist is an option, what do you say to these believers?

And apologies---I did not notice that you wrote 'believers' in your original post--nearly everyone asks what if the unbeliever would rather just cease to exist. This is the first to hear it the other way around.

 

[Magenta]

And apologies---I did not notice that you wrote 'believers' in your original post--nearly everyone asks what if the unbeliever would rather just cease to exist. This is the first to hear it the other way around.

__________ (current forum member) said Christ died for nothing if sinners are simply destroyed. So rather than accepting what God's Word teaches, He insinuates that having the Love of God, being reconciled to God, and living by Godly principles mean nothing to him if he is wrong about the fate of sinners. I told him he ought not say such things. He is often heavy handed in his responses, even when wrong

 

[Laura798]

This has been my opinion on the subject...

I don’t think God ‘sends’ anyone to 'hell' or eternal damnation. Look at it this way. Suppose I built a resort for the homeless, and all I asked was that on their way in the door they acknowledge and thank me for doing so. “Hey man, I really appreciate you doing this” and you’re in the door. Tell me to kiss off, and you can go sit outside on the curb. Am I really responsible for those who choose to sit outside on the curb?

Too, what is hell? Our universe is made up at the subatomic level with clusters of like charged particles, which science tells us should naturally repel each other. They call the unknown factor that keeps it all from exploding "the strong force". There are several theories as to the source of this ‘strong force’, including God’s claim that He holds it all together. Now, on that theory, God claims He spoke it all into being out of nothingness - while science says out of nothingness, kaboom there it is. Are those really 2 different stories?

And then there’s dark matter/energy. Scientific estimates vary, but they hover around the theory that 90% of what makes up the universe, we can’t see, except for how it affects the things we can see. God says there is another realm that we can’t see, other than how it affects what we can see. And He wants His 10% back. Again, are these really unrelated?

God also says that someday He will speak this universe out of existence. Paul describes that moment, saying the elements will melt with fervent heat (2 Peter 3:7, 10, 12). Think of what results when the atom is split – intense heat and fire.

Now, the interesting thing is, that we don’t see the lake of fire (hell) appear until right after this present earth and heavens are de-created.

Could it be that the de-creation of our universe creates the lake of fire?

Could it be that for those who loved this world more than Him, God lets them have it in its natural state apart from Him?

The Lake of Fire is the SECOND DEATH. Revelation states this 4 times. This happens before the New Heaven and Earth come into being. It signifies destruction--it's not a place.

Everyone is raised at the Judgment and then the believers and unbelievers are separated---in a figurative sense--it may all happen instantaneously since the bible says clearly "No one can see God and live." --that is mortals. Believers will receive their immortal bodies at the Resurrection--and of course we are covered in Christ's righteousness so will be eternally in God's presence.

People can't wrap their head around eternity--but there is NO TIME in eternity. The only way I can describe it when you are doing something you love and you lose sense of time--that is what eternity will be like--you are always in the NOW.

 

[cv5]

Indeed, . If this were also true of Adam and Eve, as it no doubt was, since Eve was deceived by the lie of Satan which was, "You will not surely die," and this lie, the lie at the heart of the fall of man and corruption of all creation, is being repeated to this very day... if this axiom of Hebrews 2:15 were true of Adam and Eve, one wonders why did they not simply eat from the Tree of Life instead? Even so, we still have believers claiming death is nothing to fear for the unbeliever

<<<we are told that the reason for people's slavery (to sin) is fear of death>>>
Hebrews 2:15 is NOT saying this. Can you provide any other proof Scriptures?

Hebrews 2:15 is saying that people are held in bondage ON ACCOUNT OF the fear of death. Nothing more than that. Once Christ is received that yolk of bondage is broken.

 

[iTheophilus]

Assuming annihilation is true, what do you say to believers who would choose that over 'heaven'?

Oh dear JTB! A believer would never in a million years choose annihilation over eternal life with our Creator in paradise! We can’t even imagine how wonderful and awesome it will be!

 

[cv5]

The Lake of Fire is the SECOND DEATH. Revelation states this 4 times. This happens before the New Heaven and Earth come into being. It signifies destruction--it's not a place.

Everyone is raised at the Judgment and then the believers and unbelievers are separated---in a figurative sense--it may all happen instantaneously since the bible says clearly "No one can see God and live." --that is mortals. Believers will receive their immortal bodies at the Resurrection--and of course we are covered in Christ's righteousness so will be eternally in God's presence.

People can't wrap their head around eternity--but there is NO TIME in eternity. The only way I can describe it when you are doing something you love and you lose sense of time--that is what eternity will be like--you are always in the NOW.

Oh but it is a place. A specific place that God Himself has prepared for a singular purpose. Just as the Jerusalem garbage dump was a specific place prepared for a specific purpose, and having certain unique attributes.

The naysayers say that Gehenna is just an idea. That is no more true than saying that the 1Pet 3:19 prison and Rev 20:7 prison are ideas

 

[Runningman]

Annihilation does not work in that sense that's for sure. Inveterate sinners would choose to escalate their sin their entire lives to the greatest degree possible and then just simply wait for the COMFORT and CONSOLATION of a PEACEFUL "lights out". And suicide would solve every sinners problem.

And yet that isn't happening right now is it?

 

[Runningman]

Nope. Just pointing out an observation of mine. As to your arguments I must say that you have been crushed underfoot by TDW's exquisite presentation. I would not be so dogmatic unless the case was that overwhelming. And it is.

At any rate we should be out there preaching like never before. You might not like the sound of this but I preach damnation all the time. What other choice do I have?

Do you ever preach about how those who do not believe in Jesus will not receive eternal life, but perish?(John 3:16)

Really get into the Greek of the word perish. Talk about how it means utter destruction. I am willing to bet you won't touch that with a 10 foot pole.