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E
No, I have no reading issues. and as we see, this man cuts his own post to make himself look good. as is his habit.
in other words. Go back to post 44 forward. and see Ladylynn coudl not answer my question.
What question> there was no question in post 44. Or 43 or 42 or 41 for that matter!!
I went to go see if I could answer your question, and could not find one. or if ladylynn tried, but you did not see it, from post 44 on, and could not find one.
in other words. Go back to post 44 forward. and see Ladylynn coudl not answer my question.
What question> there was no question in post 44. Or 43 or 42 or 41 for that matter!!
I went to go see if I could answer your question, and could not find one. or if ladylynn tried, but you did not see it, from post 44 on, and could not find one.
Well, rabbit trails aside (cat trails??) I promised in my first post if this discussion continued that I would post about how healing is NOT provided for in the atonement. Just salvation from sin! I am not saying God does not heal! I know he does and we cannot put God in a box, and tell him what he can or cannot do.
But we can and should put people in a box, when they post false doctrine, based on a wrong interpretation of Scripture. This is a crucial issue, and we need to unveil the fact that JP and other Word Faith teachers are telling a lie, and leading people on, mostly for the purpose of making money. You can disagree with the last part, if you are naive, and think these WF preachers are teaching this from the good of their hearts. I'm ok with that! (Not really, but I am not going to offer proof, so it is open right now.)
But you cannot ignore the faulty exegesis of the key Scriptures in this discussion and how wrongly they are used, leading to horrible judgment and condemnation, and also death to the people that are totally brainwashed and do not get proper medical treatment and die from illnesses that modern medicine could have helped!
So here is a post I wrote to someone a while back. I am revisiting it, and I will continue to revisit it, until people realize that they have been sold a lie. Period! (this was written to a specific person, so ignore the references to this person if they come up!)
"First of all, not all disease is demonic, not all disease is caused by overeating or smoking or other causes which could have been avoided. I have quite a few auto-immune diseases, which are genetic in origin and triggered in unknown ways. I was very healthy before asthma, I am an organic vegetarian. I still grow most of my own vegetables and buy local products. I was in shape when I got these diseases - I walked regularly before RA and then I was working out in a gym one day, when I realized the red, swollen hot knee that would not allow me to even leg lift the bar with no weights, was serious. Even when I got on better meds, after about 7 years, I took up cycling and weight lifting and my heart is in good shape, even though RA can attack the heart. As of now, I have been prayed for, scorned for not getting healed, and I use the doctors to keep my RA and asthma mostly in check. (Along with a few other assorted autoimmune diseases) I also went through years of turning away from God, because I felt he had abandoned me because I was not healed, no matter how much I believed and what all my Word Faith friends told me. That was far worse than any painful physical and debilitating disease - 2 or 3 years in which I did not read my Bible, pray or serve God! But praise the Lord, he used it for good!)
So the following comes from a pamphlet called The Disease of the Health and Wealth Gospel by Gordon D. Fee. Gordon Fee is one of the top Greek scholars in the world. He is also Pentecostal, believes in healing and the gifts of the Spirit. But he does NOT believe in the distorted exegesis of the Bible, and how Health and Wealth teachers have twisted the Bible, as evident from so many posts in this thread.
As far as wealth, Gordon Fee doesn't have a kind word to say about it. It is totally a false doctrine. Having met numerous people who were fleeced by these evil men who preach unconditional wealth, it is not Biblical. I will not deal with it here, because that is not what this thread is about.
Regarding healing, Fee titles this chapter "The 'Gospel' of Perfect Health." First, he notes that physical and mental healing of human life is part of the redemptive activity of God. He believes in prayer for the sick, as I do! Christians are subject to decay and death in this present age, and healing is God's gracious activity in the body healed and is a sign of the future already at work in this present age.
If healing is supported by both the Bible and theology and praying in faith for the gracious healing of the sick, then where is the problem? What is the "disease" nature of the "gospel" of total health for Christians?
There are basically some biblical and theological distortions which insist:
1. that God wills perfect health and complete healing for every believer
2. that God has obligated Himself to heal every sickness for those who have faith (unless the sickness is a result of breaking God's "health" laws.)
Integral to this theology is the insistence that faith can "claim" such healing from God, and that any failure to be healed is not the fault of God, but of the one who has not had enough faith. Very often "claiming" healing means to "confess" it as done, even though the symptoms persists.
So the answer to why people are not healed, who have faith, has to lie not in the actual words of the Bible or God himself, but in the way the Bible is being interpreted. As with many half-truths, the "gospel" of perfect health sees to base itself on Scripture. However, the evangelists interpretation is faulty for the following reasons:
1. some poor, or flat-out wrong interpretations of key texts
2. some selective use of texts,
3. a failure to have a wholistic biblical view of things, and especially a failure to understand the essential theological framework of the New Testament writers.
As a result, they tend to repeat the Corinthian error and are unable to hear Paul's answers in 1 and 2 Corinthians as over and against themselves, although these evangelists are unwitting descendants of the false apostles of 2 Cor. 10-13!
"So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited. 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me. 9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong." 2 Cor. 12:7-10
Basic hermeneutics demands the following things:
The aim of all biblical interpretation is the "plain meaning" of the text. This is the "original meaning", that the author plainly intended and that the original readers plainly understood. The Bible is indeed a book for all seasons, because it speaks directly out of our past to our present situation, it does so because it first spoke to them in their situation.
Therefore, the first task of interpretation is NOT to find out what it says to us, but what it originally said to them. God's Word to us is not a new word, never before discovered; rather it must be the very same word he originally spoke back there and then. This is the only legitimate Word to be heard in Scripture.
All this must be insisted upon, because the basic Biblical failure of the "perfect health" evangelists is the interpretation of their primary texts. They simply fail to do adequate exegesis which has to do with determining the meaning of the text in original context.
The arguments for perfect health as God's will for all believers are based on three sets of texts
a. Paul's statement that "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law" Gal 3:14, coupled with Deuteronomy 28:21-22 where disease is one of the curses for disobedience of the law.
"The Lord will make the pestilence stick to you until he has consumed you off the land that you are entering to take possession of it. 22 The Lord will strike you with wasting disease and with fever, inflammation and fiery heat, and with drought and with blight and with mildew. They shall pursue you until you perish." Deut. 28:21-22
It is argued from these texts that sickness is a part of the curse of the law, from which Christ redeemed us from.
b. Isa. 53 and the citation of Isa. 53:4 in Matt 8:17 and Isa. 53:5 in 1 Peter 2:24. It is argued from these texts, especially from the change to the past tense in 1 Peter that healing is in the atonement in the same way as forgiveness. (Something that Undergrace has been ably defending!)
c. A whole host of texts that remind us that God honours faith eg. Matt 9:29, Mark 11:23-24, John 14:12; Hebrews 11:6; James 1:6-8
The first set of texts, (a above) can be quickly set aside. This is a typical example of a totally faulty "concordance" interpretation, which finds English "catch" words in various texts and then tries to make them all refer to the same thing. There is not even the remotest possibility that Paul was referring to the curses of Deuteronomy 28 when he spoke of "curse of the law." And "redemption" in Galatians has to do with one thing only - how does one have right standing with God - through faith (= trust in God's gracious acceptance and forgiveness for sinners), or by works of the law (=acceptance by obedience to prescribed rules)? Thus the Holy Spirit could scarcely have inspired a meaning of the text that is totally foreign to the point Paul is making in the context in Galatians.
It is also questionable whether one can rightly argue that the Bible teaches that healing is provided for in the atonement. Historic Pentecostalism does not see healing provided for in the atonement the same way as salvation. Healing is "provided for" because the "atonement brought release from the consequences of sin;" nevertheless, since "we have not yet received the redemption of our bodies" suffering and death are still our lot until the resurrection.
"Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.
5
But he was pierced for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his wounds we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all." Isa. 53:4-6
While there are many texts that show that our sin has been overcome by Christ's death and resurrection, there is in fact no text that that explicitly says the same thing about healing, not even Isaiah 53 and its NT citations.
Matthew's use of Isa. 53:4 does not even refer to the cross, rather the clearly sees the text being fulfilled in Jesus earthly ministry. This is made certain by both the context and by his choice of Greek verbs in his own unique translation of the Hebrew (ἔλαβεν or elaben = he took; ἐβάστασεν or ebastasen = he removed.)
"ὅπως πληρωθῇ τὸ ῥηθὲν διὰ Ἠσαΐου τοῦ προφήτου λέγοντος· Αὐτὸς τὰς ἀσθενείας ἡμῶν ἔλαβεν καὶ τὰς νόσους ἐβάστασεν." Matt 8:17 Greek
"This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah: “He took our illnesses and bore our diseases.” Matt 8:17 ESV
The citation of Isa. 53:5 in 1 Peter 2:24 on the other hand, does not refer to physical healing. The usage here is metaphorical, pure and simple! In context, in which slaves are urged to submit to their evil masters - even if it means suffering for it - Peter appeals to the example of Christ, which Christians slaves are to follow.
"He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed." 1 Peter 2:24 ESV
This appeal to Christ, beginning at verse 21, is filled with allusions and to citations of Isa. 53 all of which refers to Christ's having suffered unjustly as the source of the slave's redemption from sin. Thus Peter says:
"He himself bore our wounds" (Isa. 53:12) "that we might die to sin."
"By his wounds you have been healed" (Isa. 53:5) FOR you were as sheep going astray. (Isa. 53:6)
The allusions to both verses 5 and 6, joined by FOR (coordinate Conjunction) and referring to "sheep going astray" plus the change to the past tense, all make it abundantly clear that "healing" here is a metaphor for being restored to health from "the sickness of their sins!"
Such a metaphorical use would be natural for Peter, since sin as "wound" "injury" or "sickness" and the "healing" or such "sickness" are thorough going images in the Old Testament. (See 2 Chron. 7:14; Psalm 6:2; Isaiah 1:5-6; Jerem. 30:12-13, 52:8-9; Nahum 3:19)
Furthermore , the Old Testament citations in 1 Peter rather closely follow the Septuagint (LXX or Greek translation of the OT) even when this translation differed from the Hebrew; and the Septuagint had ALREADY translated Isa. 53:4 metaphorically!
"He himself bore our sins" rather than "our sicknesses." I am sure Peter knew both versions and chose the LXX because he knew it was a better version for NT believers and their understanding of Isa. 53:4.
So my point!
Matt clearly saw Isa. 53:4 as referring to physical healing, but as a part of the Messiah's ministry, not the atonement. Peter, conversely, saw the "healing" in Isa. 53 as being metaphorical and thus referring to the healing of our sin sickness. Neither NT reference to healing see the "healing" in Isa. 53 as referring to physical healing in the atonement.
But what did Isaiah himself intend??
The first reference is certainly metaphorical as the Septuagint, the Targums and Peter recognize. Israel was diseased! She was grievously wounded for her sins (Isa 1:6-7) Yet God would restore his people. There would come one who himself would suffer so as to deliver. Isaiah says of the Messiah "The punishment that brought us peace was upon him and by his wounds we are healed." Since physical disease was clearly recognized as a consequence of the Fall, such a metaphor could also pick up the literal sense and that is what Matthew picked up on.
The Bible therefore does, not explicitly teach that healing is provided for in the atonement. However, the NT does see the cross as the focus of God's redemptive activity.
As far as part c above, ultimately, these rely on a wrong interpretation that healing is part of the atonement. The argument for perfect health, or healing on demand, lies in the joining of healing to the atonement as the basis for demand, and therefore if God has provided for it, he must therefore heal on demand.
Since in fact, there is no connection of the atonement to healing, God is not obligated to provide healing on demand, although I do believe he heals when people pray and it is His will to heal, that he might be glorified.
I'll close with a little more personal testimony. Back in 1998 when I first got painful and debilitating deformities from Rheumatoid Arthritis, I had two friends in the health and wealth gospel. One was so obsessed with it, she studied with Kenneth Copeland and became an ordained minister with his organization and started a church which was very well attended. This woman had the gift of evangelism, and did great work - many came to know the Lord.
However, she was diagnosed with breast cancer. She had a complete mastectomy, but decided God had healed her and refused the chemo and radiation, which probably would have caught any stray cancer cells, as it did for my sister-in-law who is 4 years cancer free this year. My friend, Nydia, believed and claimed healing. She went to some healing community in the south eastern US and they pronounced her cancer free. 10 months later, I got a call from her son, that she was dead, because the cancer had metastasized, and she died insane from the brain cancer. Not a pretty ending, at all.
The other friend who insisted I needed to claim healing, was struck with an enlarged prostate. He claimed healing, and the agony was so bad, he was raced to the ER, where he was operated on, and has not had a problem since, over 10 years later. He still hangs onto this wrong theology, and when he tells me I can be healed, I just quietly tell him I am not interested in hearing his very wrong and unbiblical theology. He is 87 by the way, and doing fine! I have no doubt God healed him in other circumstances. But he was wise to get medical help, when it was needed.
As for me, after I got over that horrible desert period of my life, and feel so deserted by God and man, and especially condemned by my friends that I was not healed. God called me to seminary and I am now a pastor. My ministry is to the hurting and broken, including those who have been hurt by bad theology.
Jesus has come to save you from your sins. That you can be sure of. God is real. But televangelist, Word Faith prophets and hypergrace, not at all! If you start reading the Bible from cover to cover, over and over yearly or more, you will get a very different theology than these sharks and false prophets paint. I urge you to get out a modern translation like ESV or HCSB and read it over and over again. That was part of what helped me heal - just reading the Word of God - in context, and fully! I've read the Bible over 50 times straight through, and most of the NT in Greek and much of the OT in Hebrew. I assure you, there is nothing more glorious than feeding on the Word of God. God will minister to you daily as you seek his revealed Word in the Bible, rather than with internet preachers and false prophets.
Why does God need to heal you, when you can just go to the doctor and get it fixed? He didn't even heal me, when there is no cure for what I have. And I have never been happier or more at peace with God and his will for my life!
Here is the verse God gave me that healed my soul in more than one way. It appears in Paul's chapter on justification, and that we all suffer - we live in a fallen world. It has comforted me more times than you can imagine!
"Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope,5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us." Romans 5:3-5
To say anything less than God is with us THROUGH the dark periods and illnesses and struggles and trials is a lie and denies the whole of Scripture. God is transforming us, by his Holy Spirit. And sometimes that is not pleasant! We simply cannot deny that we live in a fallen world, but Hallelujah! He has saved us by his death on the cross! That is the gospel!
But we can and should put people in a box, when they post false doctrine, based on a wrong interpretation of Scripture. This is a crucial issue, and we need to unveil the fact that JP and other Word Faith teachers are telling a lie, and leading people on, mostly for the purpose of making money. You can disagree with the last part, if you are naive, and think these WF preachers are teaching this from the good of their hearts. I'm ok with that! (Not really, but I am not going to offer proof, so it is open right now.)
But you cannot ignore the faulty exegesis of the key Scriptures in this discussion and how wrongly they are used, leading to horrible judgment and condemnation, and also death to the people that are totally brainwashed and do not get proper medical treatment and die from illnesses that modern medicine could have helped!
So here is a post I wrote to someone a while back. I am revisiting it, and I will continue to revisit it, until people realize that they have been sold a lie. Period! (this was written to a specific person, so ignore the references to this person if they come up!)
"First of all, not all disease is demonic, not all disease is caused by overeating or smoking or other causes which could have been avoided. I have quite a few auto-immune diseases, which are genetic in origin and triggered in unknown ways. I was very healthy before asthma, I am an organic vegetarian. I still grow most of my own vegetables and buy local products. I was in shape when I got these diseases - I walked regularly before RA and then I was working out in a gym one day, when I realized the red, swollen hot knee that would not allow me to even leg lift the bar with no weights, was serious. Even when I got on better meds, after about 7 years, I took up cycling and weight lifting and my heart is in good shape, even though RA can attack the heart. As of now, I have been prayed for, scorned for not getting healed, and I use the doctors to keep my RA and asthma mostly in check. (Along with a few other assorted autoimmune diseases) I also went through years of turning away from God, because I felt he had abandoned me because I was not healed, no matter how much I believed and what all my Word Faith friends told me. That was far worse than any painful physical and debilitating disease - 2 or 3 years in which I did not read my Bible, pray or serve God! But praise the Lord, he used it for good!)
So the following comes from a pamphlet called The Disease of the Health and Wealth Gospel by Gordon D. Fee. Gordon Fee is one of the top Greek scholars in the world. He is also Pentecostal, believes in healing and the gifts of the Spirit. But he does NOT believe in the distorted exegesis of the Bible, and how Health and Wealth teachers have twisted the Bible, as evident from so many posts in this thread.
As far as wealth, Gordon Fee doesn't have a kind word to say about it. It is totally a false doctrine. Having met numerous people who were fleeced by these evil men who preach unconditional wealth, it is not Biblical. I will not deal with it here, because that is not what this thread is about.
Regarding healing, Fee titles this chapter "The 'Gospel' of Perfect Health." First, he notes that physical and mental healing of human life is part of the redemptive activity of God. He believes in prayer for the sick, as I do! Christians are subject to decay and death in this present age, and healing is God's gracious activity in the body healed and is a sign of the future already at work in this present age.
If healing is supported by both the Bible and theology and praying in faith for the gracious healing of the sick, then where is the problem? What is the "disease" nature of the "gospel" of total health for Christians?
There are basically some biblical and theological distortions which insist:
1. that God wills perfect health and complete healing for every believer
2. that God has obligated Himself to heal every sickness for those who have faith (unless the sickness is a result of breaking God's "health" laws.)
Integral to this theology is the insistence that faith can "claim" such healing from God, and that any failure to be healed is not the fault of God, but of the one who has not had enough faith. Very often "claiming" healing means to "confess" it as done, even though the symptoms persists.
So the answer to why people are not healed, who have faith, has to lie not in the actual words of the Bible or God himself, but in the way the Bible is being interpreted. As with many half-truths, the "gospel" of perfect health sees to base itself on Scripture. However, the evangelists interpretation is faulty for the following reasons:
1. some poor, or flat-out wrong interpretations of key texts
2. some selective use of texts,
3. a failure to have a wholistic biblical view of things, and especially a failure to understand the essential theological framework of the New Testament writers.
As a result, they tend to repeat the Corinthian error and are unable to hear Paul's answers in 1 and 2 Corinthians as over and against themselves, although these evangelists are unwitting descendants of the false apostles of 2 Cor. 10-13!
"So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited. 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me. 9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong." 2 Cor. 12:7-10
Basic hermeneutics demands the following things:
The aim of all biblical interpretation is the "plain meaning" of the text. This is the "original meaning", that the author plainly intended and that the original readers plainly understood. The Bible is indeed a book for all seasons, because it speaks directly out of our past to our present situation, it does so because it first spoke to them in their situation.
Therefore, the first task of interpretation is NOT to find out what it says to us, but what it originally said to them. God's Word to us is not a new word, never before discovered; rather it must be the very same word he originally spoke back there and then. This is the only legitimate Word to be heard in Scripture.
All this must be insisted upon, because the basic Biblical failure of the "perfect health" evangelists is the interpretation of their primary texts. They simply fail to do adequate exegesis which has to do with determining the meaning of the text in original context.
The arguments for perfect health as God's will for all believers are based on three sets of texts
a. Paul's statement that "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law" Gal 3:14, coupled with Deuteronomy 28:21-22 where disease is one of the curses for disobedience of the law.
"The Lord will make the pestilence stick to you until he has consumed you off the land that you are entering to take possession of it. 22 The Lord will strike you with wasting disease and with fever, inflammation and fiery heat, and with drought and with blight and with mildew. They shall pursue you until you perish." Deut. 28:21-22
It is argued from these texts that sickness is a part of the curse of the law, from which Christ redeemed us from.
b. Isa. 53 and the citation of Isa. 53:4 in Matt 8:17 and Isa. 53:5 in 1 Peter 2:24. It is argued from these texts, especially from the change to the past tense in 1 Peter that healing is in the atonement in the same way as forgiveness. (Something that Undergrace has been ably defending!)
c. A whole host of texts that remind us that God honours faith eg. Matt 9:29, Mark 11:23-24, John 14:12; Hebrews 11:6; James 1:6-8
The first set of texts, (a above) can be quickly set aside. This is a typical example of a totally faulty "concordance" interpretation, which finds English "catch" words in various texts and then tries to make them all refer to the same thing. There is not even the remotest possibility that Paul was referring to the curses of Deuteronomy 28 when he spoke of "curse of the law." And "redemption" in Galatians has to do with one thing only - how does one have right standing with God - through faith (= trust in God's gracious acceptance and forgiveness for sinners), or by works of the law (=acceptance by obedience to prescribed rules)? Thus the Holy Spirit could scarcely have inspired a meaning of the text that is totally foreign to the point Paul is making in the context in Galatians.
It is also questionable whether one can rightly argue that the Bible teaches that healing is provided for in the atonement. Historic Pentecostalism does not see healing provided for in the atonement the same way as salvation. Healing is "provided for" because the "atonement brought release from the consequences of sin;" nevertheless, since "we have not yet received the redemption of our bodies" suffering and death are still our lot until the resurrection.
"Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.
5
But he was pierced for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his wounds we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all." Isa. 53:4-6
While there are many texts that show that our sin has been overcome by Christ's death and resurrection, there is in fact no text that that explicitly says the same thing about healing, not even Isaiah 53 and its NT citations.
Matthew's use of Isa. 53:4 does not even refer to the cross, rather the clearly sees the text being fulfilled in Jesus earthly ministry. This is made certain by both the context and by his choice of Greek verbs in his own unique translation of the Hebrew (ἔλαβεν or elaben = he took; ἐβάστασεν or ebastasen = he removed.)
"ὅπως πληρωθῇ τὸ ῥηθὲν διὰ Ἠσαΐου τοῦ προφήτου λέγοντος· Αὐτὸς τὰς ἀσθενείας ἡμῶν ἔλαβεν καὶ τὰς νόσους ἐβάστασεν." Matt 8:17 Greek
"This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah: “He took our illnesses and bore our diseases.” Matt 8:17 ESV
The citation of Isa. 53:5 in 1 Peter 2:24 on the other hand, does not refer to physical healing. The usage here is metaphorical, pure and simple! In context, in which slaves are urged to submit to their evil masters - even if it means suffering for it - Peter appeals to the example of Christ, which Christians slaves are to follow.
"He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed." 1 Peter 2:24 ESV
This appeal to Christ, beginning at verse 21, is filled with allusions and to citations of Isa. 53 all of which refers to Christ's having suffered unjustly as the source of the slave's redemption from sin. Thus Peter says:
"He himself bore our wounds" (Isa. 53:12) "that we might die to sin."
"By his wounds you have been healed" (Isa. 53:5) FOR you were as sheep going astray. (Isa. 53:6)
The allusions to both verses 5 and 6, joined by FOR (coordinate Conjunction) and referring to "sheep going astray" plus the change to the past tense, all make it abundantly clear that "healing" here is a metaphor for being restored to health from "the sickness of their sins!"
Such a metaphorical use would be natural for Peter, since sin as "wound" "injury" or "sickness" and the "healing" or such "sickness" are thorough going images in the Old Testament. (See 2 Chron. 7:14; Psalm 6:2; Isaiah 1:5-6; Jerem. 30:12-13, 52:8-9; Nahum 3:19)
Furthermore , the Old Testament citations in 1 Peter rather closely follow the Septuagint (LXX or Greek translation of the OT) even when this translation differed from the Hebrew; and the Septuagint had ALREADY translated Isa. 53:4 metaphorically!
"He himself bore our sins" rather than "our sicknesses." I am sure Peter knew both versions and chose the LXX because he knew it was a better version for NT believers and their understanding of Isa. 53:4.
So my point!
Matt clearly saw Isa. 53:4 as referring to physical healing, but as a part of the Messiah's ministry, not the atonement. Peter, conversely, saw the "healing" in Isa. 53 as being metaphorical and thus referring to the healing of our sin sickness. Neither NT reference to healing see the "healing" in Isa. 53 as referring to physical healing in the atonement.
But what did Isaiah himself intend??
The first reference is certainly metaphorical as the Septuagint, the Targums and Peter recognize. Israel was diseased! She was grievously wounded for her sins (Isa 1:6-7) Yet God would restore his people. There would come one who himself would suffer so as to deliver. Isaiah says of the Messiah "The punishment that brought us peace was upon him and by his wounds we are healed." Since physical disease was clearly recognized as a consequence of the Fall, such a metaphor could also pick up the literal sense and that is what Matthew picked up on.
The Bible therefore does, not explicitly teach that healing is provided for in the atonement. However, the NT does see the cross as the focus of God's redemptive activity.
As far as part c above, ultimately, these rely on a wrong interpretation that healing is part of the atonement. The argument for perfect health, or healing on demand, lies in the joining of healing to the atonement as the basis for demand, and therefore if God has provided for it, he must therefore heal on demand.
Since in fact, there is no connection of the atonement to healing, God is not obligated to provide healing on demand, although I do believe he heals when people pray and it is His will to heal, that he might be glorified.
I'll close with a little more personal testimony. Back in 1998 when I first got painful and debilitating deformities from Rheumatoid Arthritis, I had two friends in the health and wealth gospel. One was so obsessed with it, she studied with Kenneth Copeland and became an ordained minister with his organization and started a church which was very well attended. This woman had the gift of evangelism, and did great work - many came to know the Lord.
However, she was diagnosed with breast cancer. She had a complete mastectomy, but decided God had healed her and refused the chemo and radiation, which probably would have caught any stray cancer cells, as it did for my sister-in-law who is 4 years cancer free this year. My friend, Nydia, believed and claimed healing. She went to some healing community in the south eastern US and they pronounced her cancer free. 10 months later, I got a call from her son, that she was dead, because the cancer had metastasized, and she died insane from the brain cancer. Not a pretty ending, at all.
The other friend who insisted I needed to claim healing, was struck with an enlarged prostate. He claimed healing, and the agony was so bad, he was raced to the ER, where he was operated on, and has not had a problem since, over 10 years later. He still hangs onto this wrong theology, and when he tells me I can be healed, I just quietly tell him I am not interested in hearing his very wrong and unbiblical theology. He is 87 by the way, and doing fine! I have no doubt God healed him in other circumstances. But he was wise to get medical help, when it was needed.
As for me, after I got over that horrible desert period of my life, and feel so deserted by God and man, and especially condemned by my friends that I was not healed. God called me to seminary and I am now a pastor. My ministry is to the hurting and broken, including those who have been hurt by bad theology.
Jesus has come to save you from your sins. That you can be sure of. God is real. But televangelist, Word Faith prophets and hypergrace, not at all! If you start reading the Bible from cover to cover, over and over yearly or more, you will get a very different theology than these sharks and false prophets paint. I urge you to get out a modern translation like ESV or HCSB and read it over and over again. That was part of what helped me heal - just reading the Word of God - in context, and fully! I've read the Bible over 50 times straight through, and most of the NT in Greek and much of the OT in Hebrew. I assure you, there is nothing more glorious than feeding on the Word of God. God will minister to you daily as you seek his revealed Word in the Bible, rather than with internet preachers and false prophets.
Why does God need to heal you, when you can just go to the doctor and get it fixed? He didn't even heal me, when there is no cure for what I have. And I have never been happier or more at peace with God and his will for my life!
Here is the verse God gave me that healed my soul in more than one way. It appears in Paul's chapter on justification, and that we all suffer - we live in a fallen world. It has comforted me more times than you can imagine!
"Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope,5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us." Romans 5:3-5
To say anything less than God is with us THROUGH the dark periods and illnesses and struggles and trials is a lie and denies the whole of Scripture. God is transforming us, by his Holy Spirit. And sometimes that is not pleasant! We simply cannot deny that we live in a fallen world, but Hallelujah! He has saved us by his death on the cross! That is the gospel!
The so-called "hyper-grace" is not false just because it is different from what other people have been brought up to believe in regards to forgiveness of sins.
I want to address that completely false statement immediately and also that JP is teaching a lie because he says that God wants to heal you and it is His desire that you be well and whole.
Everyone is entitled to believe what they want as they study the scriptures and listen to the Spirit of God within them.
Personally I believe it is God's will for His children to be well. We can't live from our personal experiences when the word of God is saying something different on any subject.
I have had people tell me that they have asked Jesus to forgive them of their sins - but He didn't. These people were living by their own personal "experience" and not what scripture has to say.
There are Greek scholars that believe speaking in tongues is for today and there are others that don't believe in it - so the fact that some Greek scholar gives "his opinion" on a subject is irrelevant in the scheme of things.
In saying that - I do like to read what they have to say - but they don't have any "special" insight into the spiritual truths of God's word. We all have the Holy Spirit and we are 100% dependent on Him to reveal the things of God to us.
The so-called knowledge of a language does not translate into knowing the spiritual truth behind it just because someone gives their slant on it. This can be seen in the scribes and Pharisees that "knew" the scriptures and their encounter with Jesus - He said"you search the scriptures because you think in them you have eternal life but they speak of Me and you won't come to Me so that you may have life." John 5:39-40
Jesus is perfect theology.
Jesus came to reveal the will of the Father and to do the will of the Father. In no place can we see Jesus refusing to heal anyone. - No place. He healed "every" person that came to Him.
No where do we see Jesus saying to people coming to Him for healing any of the following statements:
1) I can't heal you because the Father wants you to suffer.
2) I will not heal you until you forgive your mother-in-law for all the bad things she did to you.
3) I can't heal you because of un-confessed sin in your life.
4) I will not heal you until you show me that you are starting to eat right. ( funny thing is that they were all on the Mediterranean Diet )
5) I will not heal you because the Father is disciplining you and "refining your character".
These statements above are all constructs of our own thoughts and are not based in any scripture. Yes, we will suffer persecution and trials while in this life - just like all the Jews did in Jesus' day.
Jesus healed all that came to Him and revealed that it was the Father's will to heal people.
There are those that have looked down on those of us that were not healed in the past and I can understand how that would make a person feel that was sick. We need to bear each other's burdens and not "judge" them.
There also are those that have "mimicked" someone else's faith and didn't take medicine and then died because of it. There are excesses and a lot of presumption in which people think they are acting in faith but in reality they are not. This causes lot's of problems and heartache for others in the body of Christ.
We do live in a fallen world and Jesus said "Be of good cheer for I have overcome the world". John says this:
1 John 5:4-5 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
The question still remains: Why are not all people healed then? It is a great question - one which has many facets to it and we will not know why healing doesn't always manifest until we get to heaven.
We know that it is God's will that all people come to repentance to Christ but we know that some do reject Christ - so it's not a matter of what is the will of God. We see darkly now and we don't know things as we ought to know them. We know in part only.
We should NOT think that those that are not sick are more spiritual than those that are sick nor judge them. We need to also allow people to have the faith that they have before God in matters like this. It is equally important not to call others that believe differently in this area - heretics, liars or false teachers because we believe differently than they do.
Romans 14:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.
Those are my thoughts on healing and I am not interested in debating this as in the past all it does is stir up resentment and does nothing to help us grow up in Christ. I'll let the Holy Spirit speak to all of us in this area as all of us only know it part.
God bless and I pray that we all grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
For those that are interested in this subject concerning why all are not healed - this is one guy's take on it. He talks about the time when the disciples couldn't heal a boy. One would think that it must not be God's will. - then Jesus Himself showed up and showed it was God's will to heal the boy.
[video=youtube;QnYNrEruwas]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnYNrEruwas[/video]
I want to address that completely false statement immediately and also that JP is teaching a lie because he says that God wants to heal you and it is His desire that you be well and whole.
Everyone is entitled to believe what they want as they study the scriptures and listen to the Spirit of God within them.
Personally I believe it is God's will for His children to be well. We can't live from our personal experiences when the word of God is saying something different on any subject.
I have had people tell me that they have asked Jesus to forgive them of their sins - but He didn't. These people were living by their own personal "experience" and not what scripture has to say.
There are Greek scholars that believe speaking in tongues is for today and there are others that don't believe in it - so the fact that some Greek scholar gives "his opinion" on a subject is irrelevant in the scheme of things.
In saying that - I do like to read what they have to say - but they don't have any "special" insight into the spiritual truths of God's word. We all have the Holy Spirit and we are 100% dependent on Him to reveal the things of God to us.
The so-called knowledge of a language does not translate into knowing the spiritual truth behind it just because someone gives their slant on it. This can be seen in the scribes and Pharisees that "knew" the scriptures and their encounter with Jesus - He said"you search the scriptures because you think in them you have eternal life but they speak of Me and you won't come to Me so that you may have life." John 5:39-40
Jesus is perfect theology.
Jesus came to reveal the will of the Father and to do the will of the Father. In no place can we see Jesus refusing to heal anyone. - No place. He healed "every" person that came to Him.
No where do we see Jesus saying to people coming to Him for healing any of the following statements:
1) I can't heal you because the Father wants you to suffer.
2) I will not heal you until you forgive your mother-in-law for all the bad things she did to you.
3) I can't heal you because of un-confessed sin in your life.
4) I will not heal you until you show me that you are starting to eat right. ( funny thing is that they were all on the Mediterranean Diet )
5) I will not heal you because the Father is disciplining you and "refining your character".
These statements above are all constructs of our own thoughts and are not based in any scripture. Yes, we will suffer persecution and trials while in this life - just like all the Jews did in Jesus' day.
Jesus healed all that came to Him and revealed that it was the Father's will to heal people.
There are those that have looked down on those of us that were not healed in the past and I can understand how that would make a person feel that was sick. We need to bear each other's burdens and not "judge" them.
There also are those that have "mimicked" someone else's faith and didn't take medicine and then died because of it. There are excesses and a lot of presumption in which people think they are acting in faith but in reality they are not. This causes lot's of problems and heartache for others in the body of Christ.
We do live in a fallen world and Jesus said "Be of good cheer for I have overcome the world". John says this:
1 John 5:4-5 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
The question still remains: Why are not all people healed then? It is a great question - one which has many facets to it and we will not know why healing doesn't always manifest until we get to heaven.
We know that it is God's will that all people come to repentance to Christ but we know that some do reject Christ - so it's not a matter of what is the will of God. We see darkly now and we don't know things as we ought to know them. We know in part only.
We should NOT think that those that are not sick are more spiritual than those that are sick nor judge them. We need to also allow people to have the faith that they have before God in matters like this. It is equally important not to call others that believe differently in this area - heretics, liars or false teachers because we believe differently than they do.
Romans 14:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.
Those are my thoughts on healing and I am not interested in debating this as in the past all it does is stir up resentment and does nothing to help us grow up in Christ. I'll let the Holy Spirit speak to all of us in this area as all of us only know it part.
God bless and I pray that we all grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
For those that are interested in this subject concerning why all are not healed - this is one guy's take on it. He talks about the time when the disciples couldn't heal a boy. One would think that it must not be God's will. - then Jesus Himself showed up and showed it was God's will to heal the boy.
[video=youtube;QnYNrEruwas]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnYNrEruwas[/video]
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L
These are amazing things that the Lord has done and is doing. When things get in the way of our sight to Jesus., we miss it all. And there are sooooooooo many things getting in our line of sight while we are here on earth.
That is why faith is believing what He said and what He accomplished not what we think we know based on our experience or other people's experiences here in our line of sight. The promises of God are always yes and amen. When the tides of human reason come rushing my way I know I'm called to believe in the power of Jesus instead. An awesome way to live!!
Thanks for posting this video here Bruce. It is faith building and encouraging to my spirit. The underlying truth of believing in the face of all human reason has come to my heart some time ago too. I can tell you believe the same and so do many here on CC. Just put up the other messages I've been listening to after the first one you posted.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2XK4asFOCE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgS8vjLxkZo
The message of the woman with AIDS really hit me too. So many people and Christians feel this kind of shame and un-acceptance before God. Sin and shame is a strong hold in people's lives and comes out in many other ways. Accepting the gift of no condemnation is not a glib issue., it is major to our healing.
I hope people listen to these messages. There is so much that we don't know about the things of God like healing and other ways the Lord has provided for us when He died on the cross. Amazing grace. Amazing love. He changes us from the inside out.
Going off point with the healing stuff but I will weigh in as well. I do not know why God choose to heal me from alcoholism, addiction and a few other mental illnesses, I only know that He did. I do not know why God choose to have a hurricane decimate Haiti and the Bahamas but change course 45 minutes before decimating where I live, I only know He did.
I do not know why others with as much or more faith than I have died, I only know I miss them.
I think the answer is that we do not get all the answers in this life. I will still pray for the sick and hurting as I believe it is effective, but I can not say why or how that is the case. I still have faith in both salvation and God's ability to heal. I have seen far too many miracles to say they do not occur.
I do not know why others with as much or more faith than I have died, I only know I miss them.
I think the answer is that we do not get all the answers in this life. I will still pray for the sick and hurting as I believe it is effective, but I can not say why or how that is the case. I still have faith in both salvation and God's ability to heal. I have seen far too many miracles to say they do not occur.
L
What we do know is once we were blind but now we see!! He loves us so much and wants us to come to Him and believe He loves us better than we can imagine. To acknowledge Him in our lives and give Him praises of thanksgiving for all He has done and will do!! I'm so happy this afternoon and uplifted by the promises of Jesus.
We have every reason to be expecting great and lovely things from our heavenly Father because of Jesus. There is no limit to what He will do because of Jesus. Jesus makes all things possible for us.
He is our hope and our salvation. He is our joy, our healing, our knowledge our wisdom and so much more.
We have every reason to be expecting great and lovely things from our heavenly Father because of Jesus. There is no limit to what He will do because of Jesus. Jesus makes all things possible for us.
He is our hope and our salvation. He is our joy, our healing, our knowledge our wisdom and so much more.