Was Lot a carnal christian or unbeliever

[garee]

Non Christian .One who looks and tastes but is shown not to walking by faith after the unseen spiritual seed.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame .Hebrews 6:4-6

This as if the one promised demonstration was not enough of the unseen work of the father not seen and Son seen working together by one faith the unseen and every time they sin he must be crucified over and over . . an open shame. They in affect made jesus into a circus seal work a miracle do a trick and then we will belive

John 6:30They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

John 4:48Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.


Lot, like Ismael or Esau represent the seed of flesh not the spiritual seed. . .one. . . Christ.

The seed of Christ which is after no nation of men was passed on through Isaac.

Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father. And the first born bare a son, and called his name Moab: the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day. And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Benammi: the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day.Genesis 19

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Non Christian .One who looks and tastes but is shown not to walking by faith after the unseen spiritual seed.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame .Hebrews 6:4-6

This as if the one promised demonstration was not enough of the unseen work of the father not seen and Son seen working together by one faith the unseen and every time they sin he must be crucified over and over . . an open shame. They in affect made jesus into a circus seal work a miracle do a trick and then we will belive

John 6:30They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

John 4:48Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.


Lot, like Ismael or Esau represent the seed of flesh not the spiritual seed. . .one. . . Christ.

The seed of Christ which is after no nation of men was passed on through Isaac.

Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father. And the first born bare a son, and called his name Moab: the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day. And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Benammi: the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day.Genesis 19

Was lot a carnal believer, or an unsaved sinner?

 

[maxwel]

1. Categories:
The first thing, as others have pointed out, is to be careful of categories: Lot wasn't actually a "Christian."

2. Bible:
If the Bible says Lot was "just" and "righteous" and "godly" (2Pe2:7-9) then that settles it for me.

3. Opinions:
It doesn't matter if Lot seems awful to ME.
God's opinion is always the right opinion.
What does God say?
God refers to his actions toward Lot (2Peter2:9) as "rescuing the godly".


The story of Lot should give us all great confidence in the mercy and grace of God.

I'm sure others have said the exact same things; I can't imagine I'm saying anything unique.

.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Curious to hear responses. Lets look at lots life.

We know from 2 Peter 2 that Lot was just and righteous.

Doesn't the description of Lot's life reflect how we as believers live our lives in our day and time — — For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds (2 Peter 2:8)?

And don't we rely on the promise of God — — The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished (2 Peter 2:9)?

Sometimes I wonder if Lot was there to give warning to the people to turn from sin. Could Lot have been used by God (as Noah was used) to preach righteousness before God brought judgment?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Think I'll throw a curveball out there.

Going further in your analogy, have you considered Abraham as a type of Christ as Intercessor?

Lot was simile of the pre trib rapture. Just like Enoch. Enoch was an uncarnal Christian though!LOl

Judgement COULD NOT begin UNTIL Lot was removed from those who would receive condemnation/destruction.

So do you consider Lot as just/righteous? Since believers will be caught up at the time of the pre trib rapture, and Lot is a "simile of the pre trib rapture" then Lot must have been a believer who lived in and among some seriously sinful folks.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Sometimes I wonder if Lot was there to give warning to the people to turn from sin. Could Lot have been used by God (as Noah was used) to preach righteousness before God brought judgment?

No Lot was definitely NOT in Sodom to give anyone any warnings. He chose to live there knowing full well that it was a wicked city.

... and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom...
The Bible says "Flee from the wrath to come". But Lot sat in the gate of Sodom.

...And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly...
Lot called those wicked men "brethren"!

,,,Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes...
Lot offered up his daughters to be raped.

Should we go on or is that sufficient evidence???

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I think it goes deeper than this, what did lot teach his family about god? Not sure he was a very good representative, look at what his daughters did when they went to mountains, and the result of their sin.

The only reason God was merciful to Lot's wife and daughters is because of His grace towards Lot (totally undeserved). In the end Lot would have been better off to leave everyone behind, since his drunkenness and incest resulted in the formation of two of Israel's most implacable foes -- Moab and Ammon. Today they are represented (in part) by Hamas and Hezbollah, who wish to wipe Israel off the face of the earth.

Interestingly, Ruth the Moabite is mentioned in the genealogy of Christ (Matt 1:5).

 

[reneweddaybyday]

No Lot was definitely NOT in Sodom to give anyone any warnings. He chose to live there knowing full well that it was a wicked city.

... and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom...
The Bible says "Flee from the wrath to come". But Lot sat in the gate of Sodom.

...And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly...
Lot called those wicked men "brethren"!

,,,Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes...
Lot offered up his daughters to be raped.

Should we go on or is that sufficient evidence???

Scripture is "sufficient evidence" for me.

2 Peter 2:

6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:

8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds; )

9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:


vs 7 — "just" and vs 8 "righteous" (Greek dikaios). From HELPS Word-studies:

Cognate: 1342 díkaios (an adjective, derived from dikē, "right, judicial approval") – properly, "approved by God" (J. Thayer); righteous; "just in the eyes of God" (Souter). See 1343("dikaiosynē).​

​

["Righteous" relates to conformity to God's standard (justice). For more on the root-idea see the cognate noun, 1343 /dikaiosýnē("righteousness").]​

​

1342 /díkaios ("righteous, just") describes what is in conformity to God's own being (His will, standard of rightness); hence "upright."​

vs 8 — vexed (Greek basanizó) = to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment.


vs 9 — godly (Greek eusebés) = from G2095 and G4576; well-reverent, i.e. pious:—devout, godly; pious, dutiful (towards God [A. V. devout, godly] εὐσεβέω)

 

[maxwel]

The Bible doesn't say she 'longingly looked back'

The word actually means she 'lagged behind' and that's pretty much the same as hesitating. If she indeed had more children that Lot didn't go speak to, or who were in any case left behind, then what we have is possibly a mother's anguish over the certain death of her children, and struggling in despair over dying with them vs. living without them.

She was turned to salt - which is a preservative, and is no where in scripture a symbol of evil. She did not perish in the city.

1. 10 Members:
I think you made an interesting point about Lot possibly having 10 members in his family... but I don't think we can arrive at anything stronger than speculation. It isn't explicit in the text, and it isn't even logically deduced from the text; it can only be conjectured from the text as a possibility. Lot may have had 10 members in his family. But we certainly have no way to know that.

2. Salt:
I don't think being turned into a pillar of salt is really the epitome of a great day.
It was clearly a judgement of God after she refused to obey his direct commands.
Clearly everything in scripture has some significance, and there is a reason God used salt here instead of something else.
Nonetheless, just because salt is normally used as a preservative doesn't imply God was really pleased with her, and he was just keeping her "Fresh" till later.
Water in scripture is often symbolic of the holy spirit, or of the word, and yet God used water to drown Pharaoh's army.
Water kills.
Apparently... so can salt.
Being killed dead with salt isn't a good thing just because salt is salt.
She was still dead.
God judged her, and God killed her.

Even in Luke 17:32, Christ uses Lot's wife as an example of disobedience.

Clearly, there is some significance to the fact that God used salt... it's a very weird story.
But regardless of the means, dead is still dead.
She was judged for disobedience, and God killed her.

.

 

[Heyjude]

1. 10 Members:
I think you made an interesting point about Lot possibly having 10 members in his family... but I don't think we can arrive at anything stronger than speculation. It isn't explicit in the text, and it isn't even logically deduced from the text; it can only be conjectured from the text as a possibility. Lot may have had 10 members in his family. But we certainly have no way to know that.

2. Salt:
I don't think being turned into a pillar of salt is really the epitome of a great day.
It was clearly a judgement of God after she refused to obey his direct commands.
Clearly everything in scripture has some significance, and there is a reason God used salt here instead of something else.
Nonetheless, just because salt is normally used as a preservative doesn't imply God was really pleased with her, and he was just keeping her "Fresh" till later.
Water in scripture is often symbolic of the holy spirit, or of the word, and yet God used water to drown Pharaoh's army.
Water kills.
Apparently... so can salt.
Being killed dead with salt isn't a good thing just because salt is salt.
She was still dead.
God judged her, and God killed her.

Even in Luke 17:32, Christ uses Lot's wife as an example of disobedience.

Clearly, there is some significance to the fact that God used salt... it's a very weird story.
But regardless of the means, dead is still dead.
She was judged for disobedience, and God killed her.

.

Yes it is a strange end for Lots wife. And to "remember Lots wife" has to have some significance. I have always thought that "looking back" (as the OT was a shadow of things to come) represented her hankering after what she was leaving, despite being warned not to look back and maybe why Lot never lived anywhere else to start with as he could have left the city before if it vexed his soul so much, as maybe his wife didn't want to leave.

But it is hard to answer the question people ask sometimes about how come Lot was so righteous when he offered his daughters instead of the angels to the wicked men. I am not sure if we are to make of this, that like most of the characters in the OT, he was just a man and didn't know any better, but it doesn't explain his being called righteous as its not a great example. I mean is it possible to be "righteous" and do such a thing, yet still do something stupid and obviously shocking? Its a hard one to explain, unless he was covered by Abrahams request when he negotiated to save him. Not sure.

 

[maxwel]

Yes it is a strange end for Lots wife. And to "remember Lots wife" has to have some significance. I have always thought that "looking back" (as the OT was a shadow of things to come) represented her hankering after what she was leaving, despite being warned not to look back and maybe why Lot never lived anywhere else to start with as he could have left the city before if it vexed his soul so much, as maybe his wife didn't want to leave.

But it is hard to answer the question people ask sometimes about how come Lot was so righteous when he offered his daughters instead of the angels to the wicked men. I am not sure if we are to make of this, that like most of the characters in the OT, he was just a man and didn't know any better, but it doesn't explain his being called righteous as its not a great example. I mean is it possible to be "righteous" and do such a thing, yet still do something stupid and obviously shocking? Its a hard one to explain, unless he was covered by Abrahams request when he negotiated to save him. Not sure.

"I mean is it possible to be "righteous" and do such a thing, yet still do something stupid and obviously shocking?"

Well... hmmm... the Bible says some pretty horrible things about every living human, lol.
God says we're all bad.
And not just a little bad.


Lot was definitely a sinner... a sinner who seemed to have had some kind of relationship with God.
God loved him.
God refers to him as a righteous man who was "vexed" or "greatly distressed" by the wicked... meaning he was one of God's people, and he was being ruined by living in Sodom. It was basically killing him inside. That's the sense I get from 2Peter2:7.

Very often, God uses the word "righteous" not to refer to our actions, but to refer to our standing with him.

.

 

[Locoponydirtman]

I'm glad to be; not the Judge.

Carnal Christian even though I hesitate to even answer CARNAL. We don't know much about his life to begin with.

2Pe 2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
2Pe 2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds

We see that Lot wasnt happy with all the wickedness going on in SodomCity. Not much is said about Lot. Me personally I woulda SMACKED HIM for what he offered to the mob at Sodom!

Despite this: Peter calls Lot just. and says he had a righteous soul and I cant argue with that!
My theory is: Perhaps Lot panicked and offered them because he figured "we gotta give em something and I cant be out here sacrificing angels". I dont know what it was like, and I have to believe what the Bible teaches. Im no saint myself i come from the mean streets.

I've always said this too: Righteousness is RELATIVE to your environment. And im not talking about the IMPUTED kind, which we know is PERFECT. Im talking about actual, doing right here.

If you have done some time, you know in the underworld people respect certain crimes, and some they dont. They have their own twisted moral code. Such is the case in the regular world sometimes too, if you grow up surrounded with ABSOLUTE WICKEDNESS and are half-way decent, you could say you "stand out" from the crowd!

I'm also glad that I don't go beyond the Bible.
As Hevosmies, pointed out, Peter called him righteous.
Is there a few things for us to learn from Mr. Lot? Most certainly. Don't live in Sodom, and when it's time take your daughter's among righteous men for them to marry. Because well, that thing that happened with Lot and his daughters was fairly not good.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Don't live in Sodom,

Sodom is our current locale ... no matter where we live on this earth.

 

[wolfwint]

Curious to hear responses. Lets look at lots life.

How he could be a christian?

 

[Locoponydirtman]

Sodom is our current locale ... no matter where we live on this earth.

Sodom was very extreme. So much so God chose to destroy them uniquely from the rest of the world. It is spiritually vapid, and a denial of reality to say that every where is equally evil and violent. If you don't understand this try living in Yemen, or in Mexico at the American border.
Even as far as living on the same area, spend a night and a day in 5th ward or south Houston, and then spend a night and a day in Kingwood or the woodlands if you survive the former.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Sodom was very extreme. So much so God chose to destroy them uniquely from the rest of the world. It is spiritually vapid, and a denial of reality to say that every where is equally evil and violent. If you don't understand this try living in Yemen, or in Mexico at the American border.
Even as far as living on the same area, spend a night and a day in 5th ward or south Houston, and then spend a night and a day in Kingwood or the woodlands if you survive the former.

I do not have to go to these places to know how bad Sodom was.

The land around Sodom/Gomorrha was filled with nephilim. Gen 14:5 mentions rephaims, zuzims, emims ... these are related to the nephilim (Deut 2).

When God first mentions nephilim, He brought judgment through the flood of Noah's time.

Second mention (rephaims, zuzims, emims), God destroys Sodom.

Mentioned again when children of Israel went into the land of Canaan. The children of Israel were to go in and utterly destroy the inhabitants. The children of Israel did not destroy all and are living with the result to this day.

 

[Locoponydirtman]

I do not have to go to these places to know how bad Sodom was.

The land around Sodom/Gomorrha was filled with nephilim. Gen 14:5 mentions rephaims, zuzims, emims ... these are related to the nephilim (Deut 2).

When God first mentions nephilim, He brought judgment through the flood of Noah's time.

Second mention (rephaims, zuzims, emims), God destroys Sodom.

Mentioned again when children of Israel went into the land of Canaan. The children of Israel were to go in and utterly destroy the inhabitants. The children of Israel did not destroy all and are living with the result to this day.

The water prevailed fifteen cubits higher, and the mountains were covered. All flesh that moved on the earth perished, birds and cattle and beasts and every swarming thing that swarms upon the earth, and all mankind; of all that was on the dry land, all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, died. Thus He blotted out every living thing that was upon the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky, and they were blotted out from the earth; and only Noah was left, together with those that were with him in the ark.
Genesis 7:20‭-‬23 NASB
https://bible.com/bible/100/gen.7.20-23.NASB

So you suppose this is a lie?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

The water prevailed fifteen cubits higher, and the mountains were covered. All flesh that moved on the earth perished, birds and cattle and beasts and every swarming thing that swarms upon the earth, and all mankind; of all that was on the dry land, all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, died. Thus He blotted out every living thing that was upon the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky, and they were blotted out from the earth; and only Noah was left, together with those that were with him in the ark.
Genesis 7:20‭-‬23 NASB
https://bible.com/bible/100/gen.7.20-23.NASB

So you suppose this is a lie?

Read in Gen 6:4 There were giants [Heb nĕphiyl] in the earth in those days; and also after that, ...

Numbers 13:33 And there we saw the giants [Heb nĕphiyl], the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.

Deuteronomy 2:10-11 The Emims dwelt therein in times past, a people great, and many, and tall, as the Anakims; Which also were accounted giants, as the Anakims; but the Moabites call them Emims.


In Deuteronomy the giants are referred to as rephaim. Perhaps not nephilim, but related.

 

[Hevosmies]

HAHAHAHA someone actually voted UNBELIEVER. NEVER SAVED. WOW!

So PETER himself called Lot righteous, yet PETER had NO IDEA what he was talking about?

Someone has some HIDDEN KNOWLEDGE Peter wasnt made aware of! WHAT GIVES?
I guess I should know by now, NEVER be surprised at the stuff people say in 2019. These are last times and this again proves it, the fact that Peter makes a PLAIN simple statement that requires NO INTERPRETATION whatsoever and someone just comes along and says "NAH" while claiming to be Christian at the same time. Mindblowin!

 

[Heyjude]

"I mean is it possible to be "righteous" and do such a thing, yet still do something stupid and obviously shocking?"

Well... hmmm... the Bible says some pretty horrible things about every living human, lol.
God says we're all bad.
And not just a little bad.


Lot was definitely a sinner... a sinner who seemed to have had some kind of relationship with God.
God loved him.
God refers to him as a righteous man who was "vexed" or "greatly distressed" by the wicked... meaning he was one of God's people, and he was being ruined by living in Sodom. It was basically killing him inside. That's the sense I get from 2Peter2:7.

Very often, God uses the word "righteous" not to refer to our actions, but to refer to our standing with him.

.

Sounds about right. He knew what the city dwellers were doing was wrong and its not so easy I guess, even today, to get out of a city you hate living in. We cant all go and live in haybarns can we when we hate where we live sometimes. I guess this was Lots "lot".