Was it the wrath of God the Father that Jesus took on the cross?
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Jesus did not sin, otherwise He would not hae been the Unblemished Lamb of God.
I should add, though it should not be necessary, He would not have been suitable for the sacrifice to take away the sin of all who come to Him. Praise Him for He suffered the agony for you, for me, for all who come to Him..
I should add, though it should not be necessary, He would not have been suitable for the sacrifice to take away the sin of all who come to Him. Praise Him for He suffered the agony for you, for me, for all who come to Him..
"...The wrath of God that the New Testament speaks of is to be expressed in judgments on a wicked, rebellious covenant people ( Matt 3:7 ; Luke 3:7 ), and upon those who refuse to believe in and accept Jesus Christ as the Savior of the world ( John 3:36 ). Paul repeatedly warns about the wrath of God ( Rom 1:18 ; 2:5 ), from which people are to be saved ( Rom 5:9 ). All people are under wrath ( Eph 2:3 ), and the only way to escape this wrath, which is sure to be in full and fierce force in the judgment day, is to believe in Jesus Christ who bore the curse of the covenant and endured the wrath of God when he was crucified. This same Christ will execute divine wrath and vengeance to its fullest degree in judgment day ( Rev 6:16-17 ). " Source and more reading: Wrath of God
I chose that particular excerpt because it refutes the idea as espoused in other discussions here concerning Calvinism and all Reformed Theology (RT) denominations that ascribe to the TULIP formula. Particularly this part of that excerpt accomplishes this. "..."...The wrath of God that the New Testament speaks of is to be expressed in judgments on a wicked, rebellious covenant people ( Matt 3:7 ; Luke 3:7 ), and upon those who refuse to believe in and accept Jesus Christ as the Savior of the world ( John 3:36 ). "
If , per TULIP, and Calvinism and other RT TULIP denominations, that God predetermined whom He would elect to salvation and by name before He created the world, then God's wrath would not be righteous with regard to it falling upon those who refuse to believe....Because TULIP and RT teach all people are Totally Depraved, That's where the T in TULIP is defined, unless or until God changes their God given TD condition and permits those whom He has already predestined to enter into His Salvation to comprehend the Gospel and arrive at faith in it.
Because TULIP claims people being TD are incapable of seeking Christ or understanding the Gospel, the wrath of God would be misplaced upon anyone who is not His elect, because He first made them to be incapable of believing in the Gospel because they were incapable of seeking it or understanding it, by His design.
I chose that particular excerpt because it refutes the idea as espoused in other discussions here concerning Calvinism and all Reformed Theology (RT) denominations that ascribe to the TULIP formula. Particularly this part of that excerpt accomplishes this. "..."...The wrath of God that the New Testament speaks of is to be expressed in judgments on a wicked, rebellious covenant people ( Matt 3:7 ; Luke 3:7 ), and upon those who refuse to believe in and accept Jesus Christ as the Savior of the world ( John 3:36 ). "
If , per TULIP, and Calvinism and other RT TULIP denominations, that God predetermined whom He would elect to salvation and by name before He created the world, then God's wrath would not be righteous with regard to it falling upon those who refuse to believe....Because TULIP and RT teach all people are Totally Depraved, That's where the T in TULIP is defined, unless or until God changes their God given TD condition and permits those whom He has already predestined to enter into His Salvation to comprehend the Gospel and arrive at faith in it.
Because TULIP claims people being TD are incapable of seeking Christ or understanding the Gospel, the wrath of God would be misplaced upon anyone who is not His elect, because He first made them to be incapable of believing in the Gospel because they were incapable of seeking it or understanding it, by His design.
That Jesus became sin for us was an extrinsic act. He Himself was never changed from being the perfect unblemished lamb sacrificed on the cross, the last altar to sin, for the sins of the whole world. His death was substitution for our own under the wrath of the Father should we have died as sinners without grace entering into this world.
"But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed.
Jesus met the righteous requirements of the Law on behalf of all believers, satisfying it completely.
Jesus took upon himself the wrath that every believer deserves, satisfying it completely.
The reward for sin is death. Jesus who was without sin, paid the penalty of death on behalf of every believer.
Jesus took upon himself the wrath that we deserve and because of that God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer. Also, though believers die they will be resurrected and have eternal life. The wrath that Jesus experienced had to be from the Father, because it is what we deserve.
Jesus met the righteous requirements of the Law on behalf of all believers, satisfying it completely.
Jesus took upon himself the wrath that every believer deserves, satisfying it completely.
The reward for sin is death. Jesus who was without sin, paid the penalty of death on behalf of every believer.
Jesus took upon himself the wrath that we deserve and because of that God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer. Also, though believers die they will be resurrected and have eternal life. The wrath that Jesus experienced had to be from the Father, because it is what we deserve.
Hello Whispered! Below is Rev.6:16-17 which takes place at the opening of the 6th seal:
"They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us f from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”
Verse 17 continues to be misinterpreted by many, by not understanding the words "the great day of their wrath has come." Because of this, they interpret the wrath of God beginning after the sixth seal is opened. However, the words "has come" are in the aorist, indicative, active tense, which means that it is referring to the whole wrath of God, which includes seals 1 thru 5, as well as the seventh seal, followed by the seven trumpets and bowl judgments.
A simple example of these two interpretations would be that the one who interprets the words "has come" as meaning that God's wrath begins at the opening of the sixth seal, would be likened to one observing a parade from its starting point at ground level. Where the person who understands that the words "has come" being in the indicative, aorist, active tense, referring to the God's wrath in its fullness, are likened to one observing the same parade from a helicopter seeing the whole parade (beginning and end) at the same time.
Therefore, when the announcement is made stating that "God's wrath has come" it includes the previous seals as well. To be clear, all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments make up the whole wrath of God which is what the aorist, indicative, active tense of "has come" is referring to.
Because of this misunderstanding, many see the wrath of God beginning only after the sixth seal is opened, excluding the first five seals as belonging to God's wrath and putting the church on the earth during the first five seals. Regarding this, I would present the fact that the Lamb/Jesus, is the One opening the seals, which demonstrates that the opening of the first seal, as well as the rest, is initiated by the Lord. In further support of this, the culmination of the first four seals causes the fatalities of a fourth of the earths population within the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. Based on our current population, that would be almost 2 billion people killed.
Since believers within the church are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, then the church must be gathered prior to the opening of the first seal, which is where God's wrath begins.
"They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us f from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”
Verse 17 continues to be misinterpreted by many, by not understanding the words "the great day of their wrath has come." Because of this, they interpret the wrath of God beginning after the sixth seal is opened. However, the words "has come" are in the aorist, indicative, active tense, which means that it is referring to the whole wrath of God, which includes seals 1 thru 5, as well as the seventh seal, followed by the seven trumpets and bowl judgments.
A simple example of these two interpretations would be that the one who interprets the words "has come" as meaning that God's wrath begins at the opening of the sixth seal, would be likened to one observing a parade from its starting point at ground level. Where the person who understands that the words "has come" being in the indicative, aorist, active tense, referring to the God's wrath in its fullness, are likened to one observing the same parade from a helicopter seeing the whole parade (beginning and end) at the same time.
Therefore, when the announcement is made stating that "God's wrath has come" it includes the previous seals as well. To be clear, all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments make up the whole wrath of God which is what the aorist, indicative, active tense of "has come" is referring to.
Because of this misunderstanding, many see the wrath of God beginning only after the sixth seal is opened, excluding the first five seals as belonging to God's wrath and putting the church on the earth during the first five seals. Regarding this, I would present the fact that the Lamb/Jesus, is the One opening the seals, which demonstrates that the opening of the first seal, as well as the rest, is initiated by the Lord. In further support of this, the culmination of the first four seals causes the fatalities of a fourth of the earths population within the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. Based on our current population, that would be almost 2 billion people killed.
Since believers within the church are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, then the church must be gathered prior to the opening of the first seal, which is where God's wrath begins.
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Gods wrath is revealed from creation .When he corrupted this creation .The great day of mankind's wrath has come." every time one perishes indicative, active tense, which means that it is referring to the whole wrath of God, which includes seals 1 thru 5, as well as the seventh seal, followed by the seven trumpets and bowl judgments.
God does not give remnants of his wrath or grace.
God does not give remnants of his wrath or grace.
Please post the scripture wherein it is written, God corrupted His creation.
The Seven Seals in Revelation. The seals scripture begins in Revelation chapter 5 and continues to Revelation chapter 8.
The Book of Revelation chapter 5
Chapter 6
Chapter 7
Chapter 8
What are the seven seals?
The First Seal
“And I looked, and behold, a white horse! And its rider had a bow, and a crown was given to him, and he came out conquering, and to conquer” (Rev 6:2).
This sounds very much like someone pretending to be Christ as Jesus is coming again on a white horse as the King of kings but Jesus will have a sword (Rev 19:6-21) and this rider had a bow and came out to conquer. This could represent the many false prophets Jesus foretold about in prophesying about the end times in Matthew 24:5 where He said “For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray” meaning that they will be pretending to be ministers of the gospel but are wolves in sheep’s clothing. Remember that Satan’s ministers look like preachers of righteousness (2 Cor 11:15).
The Second Seal
“When he opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, “Come!” And out came another horse, bright red. Its rider was permitted to take peace from the earth, so that people should slay one another, and he was given a great sword” (Rev 6:3-4).
The red horse may symbolize the color of blood (red) and it was allowed to send war and take peace away from the earth. Once more this is strikingly close to what Jesus said about the end times that “you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet” (Matt 24:6a).
The Third Seal
“When he opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come!” And I looked, and behold, a black horse! And its rider had a pair of scales in his hand. And I heard what seemed to be a voice in the midst of the four living creatures, saying, “A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius, and do not harm the oil and wine” (Rev 6:5-6).
A denarius was about a day’s wages and famines and food shortages typically follow times of wars (2nd seal) and so it could well take a full day’s wages just to buy about a quart of wheat, just enough for one person to eat for one day but not enough for someone to feed their family and thus famine. Interestingly the very next thing Jesus says after the wars and rumors of wars is that “there will be famines” (Matt 24:6b).
The Fourth Seal
“When he opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, “Come!” And I looked, and behold, a pale horse! And its rider’s name was Death, and Hades followed him. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth” (Rev 6:7-8).
When someone dies, they are said to be of a pale color so death and the pale horse could most certainly reflect the color of death which may be why the rider’s name was Death and Hades (the grave) followed him. Jesus warns the listeners and readers that “All these are but the beginning of the birth pains” (Matt 24:8).
The Fifth Seal
“When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne” (Rev 6:9).
Could this be talking about a great time of martyrdom? Perhaps because the very next thing Jesus speaks about in the end times in Matthew 24 is that “they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake” (24:9).
The Sixth Seal
“When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale” (Rev 6:12-13).
Jesus had previously said in Matthew 24:7b that there would be “earthquakes in various places” and the earthquakes would shake the fig trees, the resulting worldwide fires could cause the moon to be blackened out and even the sun appear as if viewed through the smokescreen of the clouds from the fires (like a sackcloth).
The Seventh Seal
“When the Lamb opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. Then I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them” (Rev 8:1-2).
And the seventh seal contained the seven trumpets as we read “Now the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared to blow them” (Rev 8:6) and these are seven judgments for the earth’s inhabitants (Rev 7:13) that are poured out on all who have not yet been sealed (or saved) by God (Rev 7:2-3; 9:4).
Seven Seals, Seven Angels
The first angel’s trumpet blast of the seventh seal contained “hail and fire, mixed with blood, and these were thrown upon the earth. And a third of the earth was burned up, and a third of the trees were burned up, and all green grass was burned up” (Rev 8:7).
The second angel’s trumpet was “something like a great mountain, burning with fire, was thrown into the sea, and a third of the sea became blood. A third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed” (Rev 8:8-9).
The third angel’s trumpet of the seventh seal was where “a great star fell from heaven, blazing like a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water. The name of the star is Wormwood (bitter). A third of the waters became wormwood, and many people died from the water, because it had been made bitter” (Rev 8:10-11).
The fourth angel’s trumpet was where “a third of the sun was struck, and a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of their light might be darkened, and a third of the day might be kept from shining, and likewise a third of the night” (Rev 8:12).
The fifth angel’s trumpet was where scorpion like creatures “were allowed to torment them for five months, but not to kill them, and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings someone. And in those days people will seek death and will not find it. They will long to die, but death will flee from them” (Rev 9:5-6).
The sixth angel’s trumpet of the seventh seal had “four angels, who had been prepared for the hour, the day, the month, and the year, were released to kill a third of mankind” (Rev 9:15) where “a third of mankind was killed, by the fire and smoke and sulfur coming out of their mouths” (Rev 9:18).
The seventh and final angel’s trumpet of the seventh and final seal included “loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever” (Rev 11:15).
Conclusion
We must remember that the Book of Revelation is not written in exact chronological order and that it is steeped in symbolic images and the meanings of all of these images or symbols are not all clearly understood. We can take educated guesses about these things but the main point is that God will judge the unrepentant but will spare His wrath on all who have repented and trusted in Christ. That’s all you need know and in fact, that is the most important thing you need to know.
The Seven Seals in Revelation. The seals scripture begins in Revelation chapter 5 and continues to Revelation chapter 8.
The Book of Revelation chapter 5
Chapter 6
Chapter 7
Chapter 8
What are the seven seals?
The First Seal
“And I looked, and behold, a white horse! And its rider had a bow, and a crown was given to him, and he came out conquering, and to conquer” (Rev 6:2).
This sounds very much like someone pretending to be Christ as Jesus is coming again on a white horse as the King of kings but Jesus will have a sword (Rev 19:6-21) and this rider had a bow and came out to conquer. This could represent the many false prophets Jesus foretold about in prophesying about the end times in Matthew 24:5 where He said “For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray” meaning that they will be pretending to be ministers of the gospel but are wolves in sheep’s clothing. Remember that Satan’s ministers look like preachers of righteousness (2 Cor 11:15).
The Second Seal
“When he opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, “Come!” And out came another horse, bright red. Its rider was permitted to take peace from the earth, so that people should slay one another, and he was given a great sword” (Rev 6:3-4).
The red horse may symbolize the color of blood (red) and it was allowed to send war and take peace away from the earth. Once more this is strikingly close to what Jesus said about the end times that “you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet” (Matt 24:6a).
The Third Seal
“When he opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come!” And I looked, and behold, a black horse! And its rider had a pair of scales in his hand. And I heard what seemed to be a voice in the midst of the four living creatures, saying, “A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius, and do not harm the oil and wine” (Rev 6:5-6).
A denarius was about a day’s wages and famines and food shortages typically follow times of wars (2nd seal) and so it could well take a full day’s wages just to buy about a quart of wheat, just enough for one person to eat for one day but not enough for someone to feed their family and thus famine. Interestingly the very next thing Jesus says after the wars and rumors of wars is that “there will be famines” (Matt 24:6b).
The Fourth Seal
“When he opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, “Come!” And I looked, and behold, a pale horse! And its rider’s name was Death, and Hades followed him. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth” (Rev 6:7-8).
When someone dies, they are said to be of a pale color so death and the pale horse could most certainly reflect the color of death which may be why the rider’s name was Death and Hades (the grave) followed him. Jesus warns the listeners and readers that “All these are but the beginning of the birth pains” (Matt 24:8).
The Fifth Seal
“When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne” (Rev 6:9).
Could this be talking about a great time of martyrdom? Perhaps because the very next thing Jesus speaks about in the end times in Matthew 24 is that “they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake” (24:9).
The Sixth Seal
“When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale” (Rev 6:12-13).
Jesus had previously said in Matthew 24:7b that there would be “earthquakes in various places” and the earthquakes would shake the fig trees, the resulting worldwide fires could cause the moon to be blackened out and even the sun appear as if viewed through the smokescreen of the clouds from the fires (like a sackcloth).
The Seventh Seal
“When the Lamb opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. Then I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them” (Rev 8:1-2).
And the seventh seal contained the seven trumpets as we read “Now the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared to blow them” (Rev 8:6) and these are seven judgments for the earth’s inhabitants (Rev 7:13) that are poured out on all who have not yet been sealed (or saved) by God (Rev 7:2-3; 9:4).
Seven Seals, Seven Angels
The first angel’s trumpet blast of the seventh seal contained “hail and fire, mixed with blood, and these were thrown upon the earth. And a third of the earth was burned up, and a third of the trees were burned up, and all green grass was burned up” (Rev 8:7).
The second angel’s trumpet was “something like a great mountain, burning with fire, was thrown into the sea, and a third of the sea became blood. A third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed” (Rev 8:8-9).
The third angel’s trumpet of the seventh seal was where “a great star fell from heaven, blazing like a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water. The name of the star is Wormwood (bitter). A third of the waters became wormwood, and many people died from the water, because it had been made bitter” (Rev 8:10-11).
The fourth angel’s trumpet was where “a third of the sun was struck, and a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of their light might be darkened, and a third of the day might be kept from shining, and likewise a third of the night” (Rev 8:12).
The fifth angel’s trumpet was where scorpion like creatures “were allowed to torment them for five months, but not to kill them, and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings someone. And in those days people will seek death and will not find it. They will long to die, but death will flee from them” (Rev 9:5-6).
The sixth angel’s trumpet of the seventh seal had “four angels, who had been prepared for the hour, the day, the month, and the year, were released to kill a third of mankind” (Rev 9:15) where “a third of mankind was killed, by the fire and smoke and sulfur coming out of their mouths” (Rev 9:18).
The seventh and final angel’s trumpet of the seventh and final seal included “loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever” (Rev 11:15).
Conclusion
We must remember that the Book of Revelation is not written in exact chronological order and that it is steeped in symbolic images and the meanings of all of these images or symbols are not all clearly understood. We can take educated guesses about these things but the main point is that God will judge the unrepentant but will spare His wrath on all who have repented and trusted in Christ. That’s all you need know and in fact, that is the most important thing you need to know.
I agree with your assessment that the rider on the white horse will be one who is pretending to be Christ, except not false prophets, but the antichrist. The first seal rider on the white horse is a counterfeit of the rider on the white horse in Rev.19:11-21 who is the Lord Jesus.
Agreed!
Agreed! People will get a little food for a lot of money, because of world-wide famine.
The word "hades" should never be used to refer to the grave, sepulcher or tomb, but is defined as the following:
Strong's Concordance
hadés: Hades, the abode of departed spirits
Original Word: ᾍδης, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: hadés
Phonetic Spelling: (hah'-dace)
Definition: Hades, the abode of departed spirits
Usage: Hades, the unseen world.
HELPS Word-studies
86 hádēs (from 1 /A "not" and idein/eidō, "see") – properly, the "unseen place," referring to the (invisible) realm in which all the dead reside, i.e. the present dwelling place of all the departed (deceased); Hades.
My understanding of this is that, those under the altar could be saints who will have been killed as a result of the of the second seal when peace is taken from the earth during the first 3 1/2 years.
Agreed! However, only the 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel will be sealed. Not even the great tribulation saints are sealed.
The seventh seal is followed by the seven trumpets, which is made up of, about a half hour of silence, the seven angels are given their trumpets, incense and prayers of the saints are offered up to God and the censor filled with fire from the altar is hurled to the earth.
Conclusion
We must remember that the Book of Revelation is not written in exact chronological order and that it is steeped in symbolic images and the meanings of all of these images or symbols are not all clearly understood. We can take educated guesses about these things but the main point is that God will judge the unrepentant but will spare His wrath on all who have repented and trusted in Christ. That’s all you need know and in fact, that is the most important thing you need to know.[/QUOTE]
The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will indeed take place in the exact order they appear in Revelation, which is supported by the fact that they are listed 1 thru 7 for each set of judgments. Some of these judgments would appear to be the same, but they are in fact different. For example, the great earthquake that takes place at the opening of the 6th seal is not the same as the greatest earthquake the earth has ever seen, which results from the pouring out of the 7th bowl. They look the same, but they are not.
Agreed!
Agreed! People will get a little food for a lot of money, because of world-wide famine.
The word "hades" should never be used to refer to the grave, sepulcher or tomb, but is defined as the following:
Strong's Concordance
hadés: Hades, the abode of departed spirits
Original Word: ᾍδης, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: hadés
Phonetic Spelling: (hah'-dace)
Definition: Hades, the abode of departed spirits
Usage: Hades, the unseen world.
HELPS Word-studies
86 hádēs (from 1 /A "not" and idein/eidō, "see") – properly, the "unseen place," referring to the (invisible) realm in which all the dead reside, i.e. the present dwelling place of all the departed (deceased); Hades.
My understanding of this is that, those under the altar could be saints who will have been killed as a result of the of the second seal when peace is taken from the earth during the first 3 1/2 years.
Agreed! However, only the 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel will be sealed. Not even the great tribulation saints are sealed.
The seventh seal is followed by the seven trumpets, which is made up of, about a half hour of silence, the seven angels are given their trumpets, incense and prayers of the saints are offered up to God and the censor filled with fire from the altar is hurled to the earth.
Conclusion
We must remember that the Book of Revelation is not written in exact chronological order and that it is steeped in symbolic images and the meanings of all of these images or symbols are not all clearly understood. We can take educated guesses about these things but the main point is that God will judge the unrepentant but will spare His wrath on all who have repented and trusted in Christ. That’s all you need know and in fact, that is the most important thing you need to know.[/QUOTE]
The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will indeed take place in the exact order they appear in Revelation, which is supported by the fact that they are listed 1 thru 7 for each set of judgments. Some of these judgments would appear to be the same, but they are in fact different. For example, the great earthquake that takes place at the opening of the 6th seal is not the same as the greatest earthquake the earth has ever seen, which results from the pouring out of the 7th bowl. They look the same, but they are not.
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This is just my point of view guys
I believe Jesus is both man and God .. ''imo'' Jesus suffered spiritual death as a man would and the Lamb would when He said ''forgive them Father they know not what they do'' .. He took all our sins and became our sin .. Only God could do that and God the Father had to reject our sin He took on in sacrifice once for all .. He had to shed His sinless Blood for us as the Lamb of God .. imo His physical death was the easy part and by no means do I mean it was easy, just that being spiritually separated temporary for the first and only time of His life from the Father as a man was infinitely worse (thus the great agony in the garden prayers) .. So for about 3 hrs the whole Earth become dark, the Light of the world had went out, yet He still could not sin . When His body died imo His Spirit was restored to the Father alive and well with complete victory doing work capturing the keys to death and hell .. This post is just my 2cents, but I've had dreams/visions of both being in the direct presence of God and also gradually being separated out of the presence of God in stages .. Being led away from and out the presence of God was the most horrible experience I've ever been through, completely lost with no hope, total fear and indescribable uncomfort with nothing you can ever do about it except exist in that void of life state called hell .. It affected me pretty hard for months .. If Jesus suffered anything like this for us and knew it then He truly is more than we could ever give Him all the credit, worship and praise He's due .. To think that once we are in heaven we will have the ability to understand and give Him proper credit worship and praise for all He IS will be more awesome than we could ever imagine ..
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
I believe Jesus is both man and God .. ''imo'' Jesus suffered spiritual death as a man would and the Lamb would when He said ''forgive them Father they know not what they do'' .. He took all our sins and became our sin .. Only God could do that and God the Father had to reject our sin He took on in sacrifice once for all .. He had to shed His sinless Blood for us as the Lamb of God .. imo His physical death was the easy part and by no means do I mean it was easy, just that being spiritually separated temporary for the first and only time of His life from the Father as a man was infinitely worse (thus the great agony in the garden prayers) .. So for about 3 hrs the whole Earth become dark, the Light of the world had went out, yet He still could not sin . When His body died imo His Spirit was restored to the Father alive and well with complete victory doing work capturing the keys to death and hell .. This post is just my 2cents, but I've had dreams/visions of both being in the direct presence of God and also gradually being separated out of the presence of God in stages .. Being led away from and out the presence of God was the most horrible experience I've ever been through, completely lost with no hope, total fear and indescribable uncomfort with nothing you can ever do about it except exist in that void of life state called hell .. It affected me pretty hard for months .. If Jesus suffered anything like this for us and knew it then He truly is more than we could ever give Him all the credit, worship and praise He's due .. To think that once we are in heaven we will have the ability to understand and give Him proper credit worship and praise for all He IS will be more awesome than we could ever imagine ..
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
