Understanding the Trinity as a doctrine.

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Feb 7, 2022
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Have you been to the forums at CARM?
One of the cults I spoke about who think they deal with cults. They became cultish themselves (Matt & Diane and most of their mods).

I actually was in a debate with Matt years ago on state of the dead and subsequently hellfire and torment. You know how he won? Kicked and banned me from the conversation permanently.
 
Feb 17, 2022
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https://www.newadvent.org/utility/search.htm?safe=active&cx=000299817191393086628:ifmbhlr-8x0&q=Trinity&sa=Search&cof=FORID:9
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/essay/trinitarianism-in-the-early-church/

Ignatius of Antioch, AD 110
Our God, Jesus Christ, was, according to the appointment of God, conceived in the womb by Mary, of the seed of David, but by the Holy Spirit. (Letter to the Ephesians 18)

Ignatius … to the church of God the Most High Father and his beloved Son, Jesus Christ, … I glorify God, even Jesus Christ, who has given you such wisdom … (Letter to the Smyrneans intro-ch. 1)

Anonymous, Letter to Diognetus, AD 80 - 130
This is he who was from the beginning, who appeared as if new, and was found old, and yet who is ever born afresh in the hearts of the saints. This is he who, being from everlasting, is today called the Son. (Letter to Diognetus 11)

Justin Martyr, c. AD 150
"No one knows the Father but the Son, nor the Son but the Father, and those to whom the Son will reveal him" [Matt. 21:27]. The Jews, accordingly, being are throughout of the opinion that it was the Father of the universe who spoke to Moses [in the burning bush], though the One who spoke to him was the Son of God. … They are justly charged, both by the Spirit of Prophecy and by Christ himself, with knowing neither the Father nor the Son. Those who affirm that the Son is the Father are proven neither to be acquainted with the Father nor to know that the Father has a Son. The Son, being the first-begotten Word of God, is God. Of old he appeared in the shape of and in the likeness of an angel to Moses and other prophets, but now in the time of your reign [i.e., during the Roman empire] … he became man by a virgin … for the salvation of those who believe in him. (First Apology 63).

There is then brought to the president of the brethren [I think this refers to whoever is presiding at a meeting, but no one knows for certain] bread and a cup of wine mixed with water. He takes them, gives praise and glory to the Father of the universe through the name of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and offers thanks at considerable length for our being counted worthy to receive these things at his hands. (First Apology 65)

Leningrad Codex of the Hebrew Scriptures
Leningrad Codex of the Hebrew Scriptures
For all things with which we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through his Son Jesus Christ and through the Holy Spirit. (First Apology 67)

But to the Father of all, who is unbegotten, there is no name given. .. And His Son, who alone is properly called Son, the Word who also was with him and was begotten before the works, when at first He created and arranged all things by Him, is called Christ, in reference to His being anointed and Godís ordering all things through him. (Second Apology 6)

Our Saviour Jesus Christ … being the Word of God, inseparable from Him in power, having assumed [the form of] man, who had been made in the image and likeness of God, restored to us the knowledge of the religion of our ancient forefathers. (Hortatory Address to the Greeks 38)

Permit me first to recount the prophecies, which I wish to do in order to prove that Christ is called both God and Lord of hosts and Jacob in parable by the Holy Spirit. (Dialogue with Trypho 36)

[Trypho the Jew speaking to Justin about Christians in general] Trypho said, " … You utter many blasphemies. You're attempting to persuade us that this crucified man was with Moses and Aaron, spoke to them in the pillar of the cloud, became crucified, ascended up to heaven, will come again to earth, and ought to be worshiped!"

Then I answered, "I know that, as the word of God says, this great wisdom of God, the Maker of all things, and the Almighty, is hidden from you." (Dialogue with Trypho 38)

In the fourty-fourth Psalm [LXX, in our Masoretic text, it's the 45th], these words are … referred to Christ: "My heart has brought forth a good Word" [v. 1, considered by the early Christians to be a reference to the birth of the Son/Word in eternity past]. (Dialogue with Trypho 38)


God begat before all creatures a Beginning, [who was] a certain rational power [proceeding] from Himself, who is called by the Holy Spirit, now the Glory of the Lord, now the Son, again Wisdom, again an Angel, then God, and then Lord and Logos; and on another occasion He calls Himself Captain, when He appeared in human form to Joshua the son of Nave (Nun). For He can be called by all those names, since He ministers to the Father’s will, and since He was begotten of the Father by an act of will; just as we see happening among ourselves: for when we give out some word, we beget the word; yet not by abscission, so as to lessen the word [which remains] in us, when we give it out: and just as we see also happening in the case of a fire, which is not lessened when it has kindled [another], but remains the same; and that which has been kindled by it likewise appears to exist by itself, not diminishing that from which it was kindled. The Word of Wisdom, who is Himself this God begotten of the Father of all things, and Word, and Wisdom, and Power, and the Glory of the Begetter, will bear evidence to me, when He speaks by Solomon the following: "If I shall declare to you what happens daily, I shall call to mind events from everlasting, and review them. The Lord made me the beginning of His ways for His works. From everlasting He established me in the beginning, before He had made the earth, and before He had made the deeps, before the springs of the waters had issued forth, before the mountains had been established ... [Prov. 8:22ff]. (Dialogue with Trypho 61)

Since we find it recorded in the memoirs of the apostles that he is the Son of God, and since we call him the Son, we have understood that he proceeded before all creatures from the Father by his power and his will ... and that he became man by the virgin, in order that the disobedience which proceeded from the serpent might receive its destruction in the same way in which it derived its origin. (Dialogue with Trypho 100)

For I have already proved that he was the only-begotten of the Father in everything, being begotten, in a unique way, Logos and Power by him, and afterwards become man through the virgin, as we have learned from the memoirs [of the apostles]. (Dialogue with Trypho 105)

Hermas, AD 100 - 160
"First of all, sir," I said, "Explain to me what is the meaning of the rock and the gate?"
"This rock," he answered, "and this gate are the Son of God."
"How, sir?" I said. "The rock is old, and the gate is new."
"Listen," he said, "and understand, O ignorant man. The Son of God is older than all his creatures, so that he was a fellow counselor with the Father in his work of creation. For this reason he is old."
"And why is the gate new, sir?" I said.
"Because," he answered, "he became manifest in the last days of the dispensation. For this reason the gate was made new, that they who are to be saved by it might enter into the kingdom of God." (Shepherd of Hermas III:9:12)
What are you saying? What is your point of view. You have just copied text from ancient writers, but you give no conclusion to your thinking? We can read their thoughts, but what are yours?
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
61,137
30,284
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One of the cults I spoke about who think they deal with cults. They
became cultish themselves (Matt & Diane and most of their mods).

I actually was in a debate with Matt years ago on state of the dead and subsequently hellfire
and torment. You know how he won? Kicked and banned me from the conversation permanently.
Interesting! Matt joined here some time ago, but did not stay long... one whole day LOL

Apparently he wanted mic time in the chat rooms, but unless you are a paying member, you wait
in line until all paying members have had their say. I was at CARM before becoming a member here :)
 
Feb 7, 2022
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Have you been to the forums at CARM?
One of the cults I spoke about who think they deal with cults. They became cultish themselves (Matt & Diane and most of their mods).

I actually was in a debate with several of their Mods about a year ago on the identity of the scapegoat in antitype and after presenting evidence from the Bible and historical Christianity, Do you know how they responded? Kicked and banned me from the conversation permanently and then completely erased the account and all the evidence so no one can read it.

They did the same with my discussion on Michael archangel and this beings identity from scripture and historical Christianity.

You will find none of those conversations on their site and they will not allow anything to remain which clearly disturbs Matt's written statements.
 
Feb 7, 2022
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Interesting! Matt joined here some time ago, but did not stay long... one whole day LOL

Apparently he wanted mic time in the chat rooms, but unless you are a paying member, you wait
in line until all paying members have had their say. I was at CARM before becoming a member here :)
If you spend any time at all with him, you'll find it is about him. But no one has to take my experience as 'gospel'.

I would still love to openly engage him in discussion or their mods or all of them together so longs as I get half the time and equal space.
 
Feb 7, 2022
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Interesting! Matt joined here some time ago, but did not stay long... one whole day LOL

Apparently he wanted mic time in the chat rooms, but unless you are a paying member, you wait
in line until all paying members have had their say. I was at CARM before becoming a member here :)
Too bad I was no here then. He likes to promote himself and radio program.

I have been at CARM several times over the years - I get banned deleted every time. I might go back in a while just to see if Matt will engage in another forum, where he cannot just be rid of me or evidence so easily.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
61,137
30,284
113
One of the cults I spoke about who think they deal with cults. They became cultish themselves (Matt & Diane and most of their mods).

I actually was in a debate with several of their Mods about a year ago on the identity of the scapegoat in antitype and after presenting evidence from the Bible and historical Christianity, Do you know how they responded? Kicked and banned me from the conversation permanently and then completely erased the account and all the evidence so no one can read it.

They did the same with my discussion on Michael archangel and this beings identity from scripture and historical Christianity.

You will find none of those conversations on their site and they will not allow anything to remain which clearly disturbs Matt's written statements.
I don't believe I ever spoke to Matt while I was at CARM... the focus of my time there was spent talking to atheists, agnostics, secular humanists, and any other kind of non-believer who came along. I was there for close to three years before joining here. Prior to that, I had been on a secular site over a period of four years, where my focus had been speaking to various non-believers in the Religion forum.
 
Feb 7, 2022
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I don't believe I ever spoke to Matt while I was at CARM... the focus of my time there was spent talking to atheists, agnostics, secular humanists, and any other kind of non-believer who came along. I was there for close to three years before joining here. Prior to that, I had been on a secular site over a period of four years, where my focus had been speaking to various non-believers in the Religion forum.
Yeah I did that too. Posted on Creation etc. I've been on many forums.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
61,137
30,284
113
Too bad I was no here then. He likes to promote himself and radio program.

I have been at CARM several times over the years - I get banned deleted every time. I might go back in a while just to see if Matt will engage in another forum, where he cannot just be rid of me or evidence so easily.
The site has really changed since I was active there. It looks better now than it did a few years ago after they were hacked.

I was skeptical it was him when he joined. Really, anyone could have used his name and image, but he verified after I asked :D


Hello from Matt Slick - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums
 

justbyfaith

Well-known member
Sep 16, 2021
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Here is the text of Luke 1:35 in four different popular translations:

ESV And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.

KJV And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

NASB1995 The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.

NIV The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

None use "begotten", and none hint that Jesus was "begotten in the incarnation" at all. Your assertion that such an idea is "clearly set forth" is not only groundless, it's pure fiction.
The verse in question teaches that Jesus was conceived of the Holy Ghost...and therefore was begotten in the incarnation.

If you read with comprehension, you may be able to perceive what you could not previously perceive.
 

justbyfaith

Well-known member
Sep 16, 2021
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You are suggesting that in eternity past (before the 'incarnation' of Jesus, whom you claim is simply the Father taking on human flesh) the 'oneness' of 'God' is "triune" (your word)?

You are conflating (mixing the two) eternity past and time from the moment of 'incarnation'.

How can you say, "both" (eternity past and time), when you just told me that 'the Son' (whom you say is the Father come in human flesh), did not exist in time until that moment?

If you claim that time is in eternity, then you have a moment in time at which 'the Son's comes into existence, which means that 'the Son' did not exist in eternity past.

How can you say "both"?

You seem to even have 'the Son' vaporized since Calvary. Where is the "triune" post (after) Jesus saying into thy hands I commend my spirit and gave up the ghost?
The Son ascended to once again exist outside of time (for He rose to "fill all things" (Ephesians 4:10)).

Previous to His incarnation He was the Father.
 

justbyfaith

Well-known member
Sep 16, 2021
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Again, you are conflating eternity and time in response to my question.

Do you believe time is in eternity?

If you do, consider my question again.

I will liken myself to being in eternity, and I will place a 12in. ruler before me representing the enter time of this created world. I will liken the 5.5-6.5 inch length to represent the period in time of 'the incarnation' to Jesus giving up the ghost. At the beginning of 0in. is creation of this world and at the end of 12in. is the consumption of this world.

I see the whole ruler at once and each segment individually. I experience the whole ruler individually and together as a whole.

Now look at my question again.

4. Do you believe that the Father is from eternity a Father, or did God take upon that attribute at some point of time, and if so when?

Using the ruler example, how would 'the Father' "from eternity" be a 'Father' if it was not until the 5.5 mark on the ruler of time that the 'incarnation' took place?

Since in eternity it (time/ruler) is all seen together, that means that 'the Father' does not exist as a 'Father' out side of 5.5-6.5 in. boundary, which simultaneously exists in eternity.

The reason I am asking is because God said of His character, "I change not", "the same yesterday, today and forever". To become a 'father' at point in time (existing in eternity) means God took upon a new character trait at that moment in time, regardless of eternity's view of all of it.
The Father eternally holds the ruler in His hand.
 

justbyfaith

Well-known member
Sep 16, 2021
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Look at my ruler/time example.

Look at this question again:

5. Do you believe that God was from eternity relational, or did God take on that attribute at some point of time, and if so when, and if God was from eternity relational, with whom was God relational with?

Notice, I am asking about "from eternity". I am not asking about anything once the ruler begins at 0in. or 5.5-6.5in. or after unto the final section at 12in.

I am asking you How can 'God' be relational pre 0in. in your model? How can 'God' be relational to 'the Son' pre 5.5in? How can 'God' be relational with 'the Son' post 6.5in?

How is your 'God' "triune" pre 5.5in and post 6.5in?

You say 'God' is in all time (correct) but by your scenario the persons of Father, Son and Holy Ghost are not. They are prisoners bound by their existing only in moments of time/ruler.

This means that 'God' in your scenario is pre time non relational (and cannot be love until creating, you have it backwards, as if 'God' experiencing creation from eternity allows 'God' to be love and relational, but that is begging the question) and pre 5.5 and post 6.5 non relational in persons of Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
God eternally holds the ruler in His hand.
 

justbyfaith

Well-known member
Sep 16, 2021
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Your answer shows why I asked. Your 'God' in order to be (in eternity) relational or love requires something outside of Himself - ie creation. Your 'God' is not of Himself relational or love, but requires something to have to come into existence to be the very thing (relational/love) He is supposed to already be.

Saying that your 'God' is relational or love because of creation is begging the question and argues in a circle refuting itself each cycle.

If God is not relational or love already existing apart from creation can never be relational or love by creation, and neither would the creation. Mankind was made in the image and likeness of God. If God were not inherently relational and love, mankind amidst mankind could not find relationship or love one another.
God eternally holds the Creation in His hand.
 

justbyfaith

Well-known member
Sep 16, 2021
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You believe that 'Jesus' as 'the holy spirit' went to Heaven pre death, burial and resurrection, when 'Jesus' gave up the ghost on the Cross, correct?

What happened to the flesh and bones that were left hanging on the Cross?

Do you believe that those 'flesh and bones' were later glorified and resurrected? If so, who is this person?
The crucified Jesus, apart from the Holy Spirit's indwelling...His soul that was offered up as an offering for sin (Isaiah 53:10).