Understanding the Trinity as a doctrine.

[justbyfaith]

That is the Name for The Most High... The Father. Calling Jesus יהוה is like calling The Father "Lord Jesus Christ". Separate being.

There is one Lord in holy scripture (Ephesians 4:5)--the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21).

Yet, no one can say that Jesus is the Lord except by the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 12:3).

And, Jesus is the one Lord of holy scripture (1 Corinthians 8:6).

In light of the fact that there is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5), even the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21), can you say that Jesus is the Lord?

I dare you to try and say it. Type it out on your computer.

If you can't, then I'm sorry to tell you that you don't have the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 12:3)...

And that would mean that you aren't saved (Romans 8:9).

Therefore, in order to be saved, you must accept that Jesus and the Father are the same Spirit (John 4:23-24, John 4:24, Ephesians 4:4); albeit Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.

God was manifest in the flesh (1 Timothy 3:16). Not 1/3 of God....and not a 2nd God...God.

Therefore, Jesus and the Father are the same being; and yet distinct from one another.

 

[MalikB]

There is one Lord in holy scripture (Ephesians 4:5)--the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21).

Yet, no one can say that Jesus is the Lord except by the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 12:3).

And, Jesus is the one Lord of holy scripture (1 Corinthians 8:6).

In light of the fact that there is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5), even the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21), can you say that Jesus is the Lord?

I dare you to try and say it. Type it out on your computer.

If you can't, then I'm sorry to tell you that you don't have the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 12:3)...

And that would mean that you aren't saved (Romans 8:9).

Therefore, in order to be saved, you must accept that Jesus and the Father are the same Spirit (John 4:23-24, John 4:24, Ephesians 4:4); albeit Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.

God was manifest in the flesh (1 Timothy 3:16). Not 1/3 of God....and not a 2nd God...God.

Therefore, Jesus and the Father are the same being; and yet distinct from one another.

If you think that you have to accept the trinity doctrine to be saved you are completely lost... but based off of other things I've seen from you on this forum, I can't say I'm surprised that you would believe something like that. If you start learning how to use context in scripture, maybe you would be able to see more of the big picture. You have tunnel vision on specific verses that fit your doctrine, take those verses literal, and ignore the verses that use the exact same terminology and prove that the verses you are using are not to be taken literal. Multiple people in scripture are called "god"... multiple people called "lord"..... the word "one" is applied figuratively all over scripture. The words are spelled the same exact way by the writers of the original scriptures whether applied to The Father, the Messiah or mankind. Using these words to try to prove a trinity is illogical.

 

[justbyfaith]

Obviously, if you read 1 Corinthians 8:5-6, capitalization matters. There are gods many and lords many;

But there is only one God, the Father, of whom are all things; even one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things; and we by Him.

 

[MalikB]

Obviously, if you read 1 Corinthians 8:5-6, capitalization matters. There are gods many and lords many;

But there is only one God, the Father, of whom are all things; even one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things; and we by Him.

I care more about what the text looked like that the writers of the bible used than what modern English does. Jesus didn't care about capital letters, lol.

If you understand context, capital letters are unneeded.... and apparently cause confusion to some. You know which "god" or "lord" is being referred to because of the adjectives or other surrounding context. In 1co 8:6 you know which "god" is being referred to because it says "God the Father" and you know which "lord" is being referred to because it says "Lord Jesus Christ". Capital letters do not change the definitions of the words... and you can find the bible in many languages, most of which do not have capital letters.

 

[justbyfaith]

How many Gods are there? one.

How many gods are there? many.

How many Lords are there? one.

How many lords are there? many.

Capitalization matters, in 1 Corinthians 8:5-6.

 

[justbyfaith]

If I say that there is one lord Jesus Christ, does that not contradict what was said previously, that there are many lords?

And if I say that there is one god, even the Father, does that not contradict what was said previously, that there are many gods?

If I say that there are many Gods, does that not contradict what was said, after, that there is one God, even the Father?

If I say that there are many Lords, does that not contradict what was said after, that there is one Lord Jesus Christ?

 

[MalikB]

If I say that there is one lord Jesus Christ, does that not contradict what was said previously, that there are many lords?

Umm no. That would not be a contradiction. Think about it.... if that was a contradiction, then all bible versions written in languages without capital letters would be contradicting themselves... including ancient Greek which was all "capitals". With or without the capital letter, "lord Jesus Christ" is a complete thought... you are reading it like there is ellipsis after the word "lord": "There is one lord.... Jesus Christ."

And if I say that there is one god, even the Father, does that not contradict what was said previously, that there are many gods?

If I say that there are many Gods, does that not contradict what was said, after, that there is one God, even the Father?

If I say that there are many Lords, does that not contradict what was said after, that there is one Lord Jesus Christ?

Sticking to your preferred translation... it actually doesn't say "even" before "the Father". Regardless, its your interpretation of this passage that is causing you personally to require these capital letters. It is not saying there is only one "god" in existence, it is saying there is only one "god The Father".... it is not saying there is only one "lord" in existence, it is saying there is only one "lord Jesus Christ". The Father is a unique god, Jesus Christ is a unique lord. One of a kind. The first three words in the verse let you know that that is the correct way to interpret it:


1 Corinthians 8:6

But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

 

[justbyfaith]

The Greek word for "and" in 1 Corinthians 8:6 is "kai" which can indeed be translated "even".

And I think that at one time I did study into the Greek language and am aware that it does indeed have capital letters in it.

So, it is a myth that it does not.

Here is an example.

Mat 5:13, Ὑμεῖς ἐστε τὸ ἅλας τῆς γῆς· ἐὰν δὲ τὸ ἅλας μωρανθῇ ἐν τίνι ἁλισθήσεται εἰς οὐδὲν ἰσχύει ἔτι εἰ μὴ βληθῆναι ἔξω καὶ καταπατεῖσθαι ὑπὸ τῶν ἀνθρώπων

 

[justbyfaith]

Umm no. That would not be a contradiction. Think about it.... if that was a contradiction, then all bible versions written in languages without capital letters would be contradicting themselves... including ancient Greek which was all "capitals". With or without the capital letter, "lord Jesus Christ" is a complete thought... you are reading it like there is ellipsis after the word "lord": "There is one lord.... Jesus Christ."





Sticking to your preferred translation... it actually doesn't say "even" before "the Father". Regardless, its your interpretation of this passage that is causing you personally to require these capital letters. It is not saying there is only one "god" in existence, it is saying there is only one "god The Father".... it is not saying there is only one "lord" in existence, it is saying there is only one "lord Jesus Christ". The Father is a unique god, Jesus Christ is a unique lord. One of a kind. The first three words in the verse let you know that that is the correct way to interpret it:


1 Corinthians 8:6

But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Whether to us or to the rest of the world, the reality is that there is one God and one Lord.

While the rest of the world believes that there are many gods and many lords; the reality is that there is one God and one Lord.

And the reality is that to the world there are many gods and many lords. IOW, there are many gods and many lords that are worshiped by the world; but we as believers worship the true and living God; and of Him there is only One.

 

[MalikB]

The Greek word for "and" in 1 Corinthians 8:6 is "kai" which can indeed be translated "even".

And I think that at one time I did study into the Greek language and am aware that it does indeed have capital letters in it.

So, it is a myth that it does not.

Here is an example.

Mat 5:13, Ὑμεῖς ἐστε τὸ ἅλας τῆς γῆς· ἐὰν δὲ τὸ ἅλας μωρανθῇ ἐν τίνι ἁλισθήσεται εἰς οὐδὲν ἰσχύει ἔτι εἰ μὴ βληθῆναι ἔξω καὶ καταπατεῖσθαι ὑπὸ τῶν ἀνθρώπων

All you have to do is go on google images, type in "original Greek text", and look at the Greek written on stone. Bottom line is... if there is or ever was scripture written in any language that did not have capital letters, then your argument for them is completely illogical.


1 Corinthians 8:6

But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Corinthians 8:6

ἀλλ᾽ ἡμῖν εἷς θεὸς ὁ πατήρ ἐξ οὗ τὰ πάντα καὶ ἡμεῖς εἰς αὐτόν καὶ εἷς κύριος Ἰησοῦς Χριστός δι᾽ οὗ τὰ πάντα καὶ ἡμεῖς δι᾽ αὐτοῦ


Nobody said that "kai" can't be translated into the word "even". The Greek word simply does not exist before the words "the Father" like you placed it. The word "kai" exists three places in that verse, and is translated into "and" in all three places in the bible version YOU use.

 

[MalikB]

Whether to us or to the rest of the world, the reality is that there is one God and one Lord.

While the rest of the world believes that there are many gods and many lords; the reality is that there is one God and one Lord.

And the reality is that to the world there are many gods and many lords. IOW, there are many gods and many lords that are worshiped by the world; but we as believers worship the true and living God; and of Him there is only One.

IOW? That is fine... one can believe in this post without believing in the trinity. There is only one Most High (The Father)... and He is above all... including the Messiah.

 

[justbyfaith]

IOW? That is fine... one can believe in this post without believing in the trinity. There is only one Most High (The Father)... and He is above all... including the Messiah.

There is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5) even the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21), even the one Lord Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 8:6, 1 Corinthians 12:3).

 

[MalikB]

There is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5) even the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21), even the one Lord Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 8:6, 1 Corinthians 12:3).

You repeating this over again does not make your interpretation any more accurate.

 

[LactoseIntolerant]

The link was redirected.

Not sure what is being said here, link seems fine. Here is the salients

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Isaiah 9:6—Why is Jesus called “the everlasting Father” if He is the Son of God?
Problem: The orthodox Christian doctrine of the Trinity holds that God is one Essence in three Persons—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. However, Isaiah 9:6 calls the Messiah “the everlasting Father.” How can Jesus be both the Father and the Son?

Solution: This verse is not a Trinitarian formula that calls Jesus Christ the Father. Actually, it is easier to grasp the idea when the phrase is rendered literally into English, “Father of eternity.” The first part of verse six makes reference to the incarnation of Jesus. The part that lists the names by which He is called expresses His relationship to His people. He is to us the Wonderful Counselor, the Mighty God, the Father of Eternity, the Prince of Peace. Considered in this way, we see that Jesus is the One who gives us eternal life. By His death, burial, and resurrection, He has brought life and immortality to light. Truly, He is the Father of eternity for His people. The name “Father of eternity” indicates that, as a loving father provides for His children, so Jesus loves us and has provided for us by giving us everlasting life.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Trinity is everywhere but nowhere.

 

[justbyfaith]

You repeating this over again does not make your interpretation any more accurate.

Right...because it was accurate before I repeated it.

 

[justbyfaith]

Not sure what is being said here, link seems fine. Here is the salients

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Isaiah 9:6—Why is Jesus called “the everlasting Father” if He is the Son of God?
Problem: The orthodox Christian doctrine of the Trinity holds that God is one Essence in three Persons—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. However, Isaiah 9:6 calls the Messiah “the everlasting Father.” How can Jesus be both the Father and the Son?

Solution: This verse is not a Trinitarian formula that calls Jesus Christ the Father. Actually, it is easier to grasp the idea when the phrase is rendered literally into English, “Father of eternity.” The first part of verse six makes reference to the incarnation of Jesus. The part that lists the names by which He is called expresses His relationship to His people. He is to us the Wonderful Counselor, the Mighty God, the Father of Eternity, the Prince of Peace. Considered in this way, we see that Jesus is the One who gives us eternal life. By His death, burial, and resurrection, He has brought life and immortality to light. Truly, He is the Father of eternity for His people. The name “Father of eternity” indicates that, as a loving father provides for His children, so Jesus loves us and has provided for us by giving us everlasting life.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Trinity is everywhere but nowhere.

The "Father of eternity" is still the Father.

Better change that scripture one more time.

 

[MalikB]

Acts 4:24-30



24 And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:

25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?

26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.

27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

29 And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word,

30 By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.

 

[justbyfaith]

Acts 4:24-30



24 And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:

25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?

26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.

27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

29 And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word,

30 By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.

Amen!

Can you say in light of these scriptures that Jesus is the Lord?

If you can't, then you don't have the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 12:3), and are not saved (Romans 8:9).

1Co 12:3, Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Rom 8:9, But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

 

[MalikB]

Amen!

Can you say in light of these scriptures that Jesus is the Lord?

If you can't, then you don't have the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 12:3), and are not saved (Romans 8:9).

1Co 12:3, Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Rom 8:9, But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Many in the bible are lord... sure.

 

[MalikB]

John 17:3

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.