Understanding the Trinity as a doctrine.

[TheLearner]

when you hear a Christian say :

as per "Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges" (biblehub),
his name shall be called] The name of the Messiah consists of a series of honorific titles,...
Wonderful, Counseller] Since each of the other names is compounded of two words, these expressions are also to be taken together as forming a single designation—Wonder-Counseller....
The mighty God] (’êl Gibbôr) either “God-like Hero” or Hero-God...
The everlasting Father] lit. Father of Eternity. The translation “Father of booty” ...




It might as well be an agnostic saying it. it is true that the Word of God is inerrant and inspired by the Spirit of God.


The improper application of the "a word" translation to mean "Father of booty" taken from the context of The Everlasting Father "
is one of the most foolish things I have ever seen in my 40 years of being a Christian.

The Everlasting Father comes from the Hebrew text in Isaiah 9:6 means in the context.

1. for ever (of God's existence)

in the first time seen in the scripture found in Genesis 9:16 the word is ôlām = in reference to the Rainbow God made as a covenant that he would no longer flood the earth because of man. This word is not in context to God but what God said will not happen.

In Isaiah 9:6 this world is specifically speaking about Gods' Eternal existence. ad the Hebrew word "AD comes from "Ad" which root word is ʿāḏâ which is to adorn. Ada which is a verb leaves too much flexibility in the translation, the word has stronger translation which helps clarify what Ever Lasting means in context to God His Nature and God is power

that word is bārā' which is to shape and fashion or with Genesis 1: 3 "God said" = 'āmar to speak.

what we have is : a`da ba`ra` a`mar from Everlasting Father = to Adorn the One who is Eternal and spoke everything into existence out of Nothing

it could never mean "Father of booty". That is profane. And frankly biblical error.

The main reason why is:

1. the context
2. the Prophet Isaiah would never call the Lord God " booty" or address him with such perversion.

Isaiah was describing the One true God not another god with a booty name.

He was speaking as a Prophet of GOD. and HE said :

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

If one doubts what Isaiah is meaning you can just go to Isaiah 26:4

Trust ye in the LORD for ever: for in the LORD JEHOVAH is everlasting strength:

The word Everlasting becomes more clear as we read in the book Isaiah as the Spirit of God reveals more of Christ the prophet in the later chapter when the word of Everlasting is the same in context to Jesus found in Isiah 55:13.

"Father of booty" is a word study fallacy misusing Strong's.

 

[TheLearner]

The question is whether God was accurate in what He was trying to convey and whether He got His message across, or whether His message was so confusing that the people He was speaking to actually got the wrong message. The scribes and Pharisees were not confused, in that they understood Jesus' claim to be the everlasting Father in that He claimed to be the Son of God. It is also the interpretation of the Holy Ghost that, as scripture plainly states, the "son that was given" shall have the name of "The everlasting Father" according to Isaiah 9:6. If the Pharisees understood this, it was because God was not vague in His communication and therefore the scribes and Pharisees accurately understood what He was saying to them in what He said in Isaiah 9:6.

What is your understanding of "everlasting Father"? Are you Jesus only friend or am I misunderstanding your post?

 

[TheLearner]

See my post above (#384)


Jesus was in fact claiming to be God.

Please explain your understanding of "Jesus was in fact claiming to be God ".

 

[TheLearner]

I don't know what to tell you, sorry. There are a few of us that don't subscribe to the trinity doctrine at all.... You have the guy who started the thread (that you responded to about Isa 45:11)... and you have others that believe in the trinity, but don't agree with his interpretation of it (you will find these disagreements on the first few pages).

My wife is working at home, so I do not get much online time.

Isaiah 45
Easy-to-Read Version
God Chooses Cyrus to Make Israel Free
45 This is what the Lord said to Cyrus, his chosen king[a]:

“I took you by your right hand to help you defeat nations,
to strip other kings of their power,
and to open city gates that will not be closed again.
2 I will go in front of you
and make the mountains flat.
I will break the city gates of bronze
and cut the iron bars on the gates.
3 I will give you the wealth that is stored in secret places.
I will give you those hidden treasures.
Then you will know that I am the Lord,
the God of Israel, who calls you by name.
4 I do this for my servant, Jacob.
I do it for my chosen people, Israel.
Cyrus, I am calling you by name.
You don’t know me, but I know you.
5 I am the Lord, the only God.
There is no other God except me.
I put your clothes on you,[c]
but still you don’t know me.
6 I am doing this so that everyone will know
that I am the only God.
From the east to the west, people will know that I am the Lord
and that there is no other God.
7 I made the light and the darkness.
I bring peace, and I cause trouble.
I, the Lord, do all these things.

8 “May the clouds in the skies above
pour goodness on the earth like rain.
May the earth open up
to let salvation grow.
And may goodness grow with that salvation,
which I, the Lord, created.

God Controls His Creation
9 “Look at these people! They are arguing with the one who made them. Look at them argue with me. They are like pieces of clay from a broken pot. Clay does not say to the one molding it, ‘Man, what are you doing?’ Things that are made don’t have the power to question the one who makes them. 10 A father gives life to his children, and they cannot ask, ‘Why are you giving me life?’ They cannot question their mother and ask, ‘Why are you giving birth to me?’”

11 The Lord God is the Holy One of Israel. He created Israel, and he says,

“My children, you asked me to show you a sign.
You told me to show you what I have done.[d]
12 I made the earth,
and I created the people on it.
I used my own hands to make the skies.
And I command all the armies in the sky.[e]
13 I was right to give power to Cyrus,[f]
and I will make his work easy.
He will rebuild my city,
and he will set my people free without bribes or payment.”
The Lord All-Powerful said this.

14 The Lord says, “Egypt and Ethiopia are rich,
but, Israel, you will get those riches.
The tall people from Seba will be yours.
They will walk behind you with chains around their necks.
They will bow down before you
and ask you to pray for them and say,
‘The true God really is with you,
and there is no other God.’”

15 You are the God people cannot see.
You are the God who saves Israel.
16 Many people make false gods,
but they will be disappointed.
All of them will go away ashamed.
17 But Israel will be saved by the Lord.
That salvation will continue forever.
Never again will Israel be shamed.
18 The Lord is God.
He made the skies and the earth.
He put the earth in its place.
He did not want the earth to be empty when he made it.
He created it to be lived on.
“I am the Lord.
There is no other God.
19 I have spoken openly, not in secret.
I did not hide my words in a dark and secret place.
I did not tell the people of Jacob
to look for me in empty places.
I am the Lord, and I speak the truth.
I say only what is right.

The text says God is in charge and he is the creator.

 

[TheLearner]

In John 5:18 - The word "break" is not the same word as "transgress" or violate. It means "to loosen". The Messiah did not sin.... aka "break" the law of his Father.... what he did was "loosened" man's law (doctrines of men) that the Jews added on to the law of God.

In Phi 2:6 - This is not speaking of The Most High God..... God the Father. This is speaking of elohim... hence why the verse says the "form of God". This is speaking of the existence outside of the body.... which we all have within us:


John 10:34

Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

Psalm 82:6

I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

John 5:18
Easy-to-Read Version
18 This made them even more determined to kill him. They thought it was bad enough that he was breaking the law about the Sabbath day. And now he was saying that God is his Father, making himself equal with God!

 

[justbyfaith]

This closer to the Hebrew


Isaiah 45:11

Easy-to-Read Version



11 The Lord God is the Holy One of Israel. He created Israel, and he says,
“My children, you asked me to show you a sign.
You told me to show you what I have done.

I really do feel that the kjv is better; for there are many other versions that are indeed watered down so that you don't get the full message that the Lord intended.

Hi friend, my first language was Hebrew.

Is the word "Israel" in the Hebrew of Isaiah 45:11; or does it use a possessive pronoun as is rendered by the kjv?

To @TheLearner.

 

[justbyfaith]

Isa 45:11, Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.

 

[justbyfaith]

Are you saying that it would have more accurately been rendered thus?

Isa 45:11, Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One, of Israel and his Maker; Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.

 

[justbyfaith]

Please explain your understanding of "Jesus was in fact claiming to be God ".

I believe that He was referring back to Exodus 3:14 when He broke grammar to make His claim in John 8:58.

And that the scribes and Pharisees understood his claim; for they picked up stones to stone Him for blasphemy, "because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God" (John 8:59, John 10:31-33)

 

[justbyfaith]

Hi friend, my first language was Hebrew.

My first language is English; and I believe that God accurately speaks to me in my language when I read the King James Version of the Bible.

 

[justbyfaith]

What is your understanding of "everlasting Father"? Are you Jesus only friend or am I misunderstanding your post?

I have a Jesus-only background and I do emphasize the Oneness of the Lord in my posts;

However, I do believe that our God is Triune and yet I contend that the members of the Trinity are distinct rather than separate.

 

[justbyfaith]

Is the word "Israel" in the Hebrew of Isaiah 45:11; or does it use a possessive pronoun as is rendered by the kjv?

To @TheLearner.

More accurately, is the word "Israel" after the word "created" in that verse in the Hebrew?

 

[rayzor]

https://slmedia.org/blog/deacon-structing-i-am-the-divine-name
https://www.jstor.org/stable/1515709
"
Benson Commentary
Exodus 3:14. God said — Two names God would be known by: 1st, A name that speaks what he is in himself, I AM THAT I AM. The Septuagint renders the words ειμι ο ων, I AM the existing Being, or HE WHO IS; and the Chaldee, I AM HE WHO IS, and WHO WILL BE. That is, I am He that enjoys an essential, independent, immutable, and necessary existence, He that IS, and WAS, and IS TO COME. It explains his name Jehovah, and signifies, 1st, That he is self- existent: he has his being of himself, and has no dependance on any other. And being self-existent, he cannot but be self-sufficient, and therefore all-sufficient, and the inexhaustible fountain of being and blessedness. 2d, That he is eternal and unchangeable: the same yesterday, to-day, and for ever. For the words are with equal propriety rendered, I WILL BE WHAT I AM, or, I AM WHAT I WILL BE, or, I WILL BE WHAT I WILL BE. Other beings are, and have been, and shall be; but because what they have been might have been otherwise, and what they are might possibly not have been at all, and what they shall be may be very different from what now is therefore their changeable, dependant, and precarious essence, which to-day may be one thing, to- morrow another thing, and the next day possibly nothing at all, scarce deserves the name of being. There is another consideration which makes this name peculiarly applicable to God, namely that he is the fountain of all being and perfection, and that from him all things have derived their existence; so that it is he alone that has life in himself: and no creature, of whatever rank or order, has so much as an existence of its own: For in him we live, and move, and have our being. And though divers of God’s attributes are, through his goodness, participated by his creatures, yet because they possess them in a way so inferior to that transcendent, peculiar, and divine manner in which they belong to God, the Scriptures seem absolutely to exclude created beings from any title to those attributes. "

They often render Asher as was.Translatter often down play that meaning of the word happyness happy joyfull.Sometimes just by the dot play via the naqqud = the Hebrew vowles,,,,Yes your right about the verb = be or i but i like "I am" better in that case,,,,,Another they tend to do that to is the ET The olive tav = Alpha omega = A Z. I put a reference where it's used as joy.

 

[rayzor]

https://slmedia.org/blog/deacon-structing-i-am-the-divine-name
https://www.jstor.org/stable/1515709
"
Benson Commentary
Exodus 3:14. God said — Two names God would be known by: 1st, A name that speaks what he is in himself, I AM THAT I AM. The Septuagint renders the words ειμι ο ων, I AM the existing Being, or HE WHO IS; and the Chaldee, I AM HE WHO IS, and WHO WILL BE. That is, I am He that enjoys an essential, independent, immutable, and necessary existence, He that IS, and WAS, and IS TO COME. It explains his name Jehovah, and signifies, 1st, That he is self- existent: he has his being of himself, and has no dependance on any other. And being self-existent, he cannot but be self-sufficient, and therefore all-sufficient, and the inexhaustible fountain of being and blessedness. 2d, That he is eternal and unchangeable: the same yesterday, to-day, and for ever. For the words are with equal propriety rendered, I WILL BE WHAT I AM, or, I AM WHAT I WILL BE, or, I WILL BE WHAT I WILL BE. Other beings are, and have been, and shall be; but because what they have been might have been otherwise, and what they are might possibly not have been at all, and what they shall be may be very different from what now is therefore their changeable, dependant, and precarious essence, which to-day may be one thing, to- morrow another thing, and the next day possibly nothing at all, scarce deserves the name of being. There is another consideration which makes this name peculiarly applicable to God, namely that he is the fountain of all being and perfection, and that from him all things have derived their existence; so that it is he alone that has life in himself: and no creature, of whatever rank or order, has so much as an existence of its own: For in him we live, and move, and have our being. And though divers of God’s attributes are, through his goodness, participated by his creatures, yet because they possess them in a way so inferior to that transcendent, peculiar, and divine manner in which they belong to God, the Scriptures seem absolutely to exclude created beings from any title to those attributes. "

Gen 30:13 Same word
And Leah said, Happy am I, H837 for the daughters will call me blessed: and she called his name Asher.They change The word with dot play. The Ben Asher text yes the same name meaning means son of happiness.Is known to leave out Jesus prophecy stuff.Note to you there's more then one septuagint,,,And the first was only the first 5 book of the old testament.

 

[MalikB]

My wife is working at home, so I do not get much online time.

Isaiah 45
Easy-to-Read Version
God Chooses Cyrus to Make Israel Free
45 This is what the Lord said to Cyrus, his chosen king[a]:

“I took you by your right hand to help you defeat nations,
to strip other kings of their power,
and to open city gates that will not be closed again.
2 I will go in front of you
and make the mountains flat.
I will break the city gates of bronze
and cut the iron bars on the gates.
3 I will give you the wealth that is stored in secret places.
I will give you those hidden treasures.
Then you will know that I am the Lord,
the God of Israel, who calls you by name.
4 I do this for my servant, Jacob.
I do it for my chosen people, Israel.
Cyrus, I am calling you by name.
You don’t know me, but I know you.
5 I am the Lord, the only God.
There is no other God except me.
I put your clothes on you,[c]
but still you don’t know me.
6 I am doing this so that everyone will know
that I am the only God.
From the east to the west, people will know that I am the Lord
and that there is no other God.
7 I made the light and the darkness.
I bring peace, and I cause trouble.
I, the Lord, do all these things.

8 “May the clouds in the skies above
pour goodness on the earth like rain.
May the earth open up
to let salvation grow.
And may goodness grow with that salvation,
which I, the Lord, created.

God Controls His Creation
9 “Look at these people! They are arguing with the one who made them. Look at them argue with me. They are like pieces of clay from a broken pot. Clay does not say to the one molding it, ‘Man, what are you doing?’ Things that are made don’t have the power to question the one who makes them. 10 A father gives life to his children, and they cannot ask, ‘Why are you giving me life?’ They cannot question their mother and ask, ‘Why are you giving birth to me?’”

11 The Lord God is the Holy One of Israel. He created Israel, and he says,

“My children, you asked me to show you a sign.
You told me to show you what I have done.[d]
12 I made the earth,
and I created the people on it.
I used my own hands to make the skies.
And I command all the armies in the sky.[e]
13 I was right to give power to Cyrus,[f]
and I will make his work easy.
He will rebuild my city,
and he will set my people free without bribes or payment.”
The Lord All-Powerful said this.

14 The Lord says, “Egypt and Ethiopia are rich,
but, Israel, you will get those riches.
The tall people from Seba will be yours.
They will walk behind you with chains around their necks.
They will bow down before you
and ask you to pray for them and say,
‘The true God really is with you,
and there is no other God.’”

15 You are the God people cannot see.
You are the God who saves Israel.
16 Many people make false gods,
but they will be disappointed.
All of them will go away ashamed.
17 But Israel will be saved by the Lord.
That salvation will continue forever.
Never again will Israel be shamed.
18 The Lord is God.
He made the skies and the earth.
He put the earth in its place.
He did not want the earth to be empty when he made it.
He created it to be lived on.
“I am the Lord.
There is no other God.
19 I have spoken openly, not in secret.
I did not hide my words in a dark and secret place.
I did not tell the people of Jacob
to look for me in empty places.
I am the Lord, and I speak the truth.
I say only what is right.

The text says God is in charge and he is the creator.

Yes... I agree. I do not believe in the trinity doctrine.

 

[LactoseIntolerant]

I am sure you would take it as a compliment. Yes, an agnostic has human logic formed from human understanding, not a godly one.

The term "father of the booty", has nothing to do with me having my mind in the gutter, but more of how one improperly looked at the text and came to that understanding.

Please do not by any means agree with what I am saying, but if you are as you say " I will learn my greek and hebrew from scholars",

maybe the issue is more with your understanding and not the scholars?

Again my mind is not in the gutter, the term booty also means stolen or like a trophy.

1. . שָׁלָל He has made haste to the plunder! Isaiah chapter 8 & 9
2. בִּזָה to plunder, rapine violent seizure of someone's property.

once again my mind is not in the gutter, it is the idea the term has anything to do with the Eternal Godhead.

FYI, the " echo chamber" I have been a part of speaks the truth, not of human reasoning but of Who the Lord Jesus Christ is. We not only "echo" but testify HE is God.

Since you wish to discuss my unbelief,
I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth. And in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord;
I do not believe that Jesus said the Father was greater than He. I know it is written in the Scriptures
I do not believe that Jesus said the Father was His God. I know it is written in the Scriptures.
I do not believe that it is said Jesus is the Only-Begotten Son. I know it is written in the Scriptures.
I do not believe that it is said the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God. I know it is written in the Scriptures.
I do not believe you as commanded by the Scriptures.

Your self identified piety or scholarship is not of interest to me. I have tested your sayings against the Scriptures and I have found it lacking. Your scholarship is tainted by greek philosophy, but you refuse to grant them citation.

As purveyors of digested scholarship, the question of trust is paramount. I do not trust you in your pursuit of truth. The term אֲבִיעַ֖ד has the component עַ֖ד shown. No further compounding or elaboration. Strong`s 5706 Original Word: עַד Definition: booty, prey
It is not an ankle!

Your rush to judgement clothed in pious outrage is telling of your church experiences.

 

[MalikB]

John 5:18
Easy-to-Read Version
18 This made them even more determined to kill him. They thought it was bad enough that he was breaking the law about the Sabbath day. And now he was saying that God is his Father, making himself equal with God!

Yes... People fail to understand that this verse is from the Jews perspective. That version added "They thought" to clear things up for those that can't plainly understand that from the context.

 

[LactoseIntolerant]

please try again in context.

No need to try again. A bunch of anecdotes do not make a theory.

And please continue with your insults I have no issue with you just the unbiblical understanding. I am not trying to convince you of anything. Other than that, your understanding of the Godhead is limited and you cannot fully know all of God, to make an authoritative statement on HIS Divine Nature.

I don`t trust you and your knowledge. Causes dissonance in my worldview.
Yes, I do not understand the godhead, but I suspect neither do you. I have no credentials, so I depend only on the Scriptures. Knowing something that is unknowable is certainly a mystery of the babylonian kind.

I think you are in the same club that Jesus has created being. Not able to comprehend how He is 100% and 100% man.

It is written that Jesus is the Only Begotten Son and was with God at the beginning. That is all I know or claim to know. Saying Jesus is that and Jesus is this, which cannot be verified nor falsified, is called opinion. Asking for faith beyond the Apostle`s creed is called cult.

 

[LactoseIntolerant]

I will assume this is meant for me.

Those who seek to deny the plain meaning of Isaiah 9:6 have no choice but to change that scripture, not once, but twice, in order to come to the conclusion that they desire.

First, they change it from "everlasting Father" to "Father of eternity"...but that is still the Father...so they change "Father of eternity" to "Father of booty" and they have a "winner".

Not!

It is the other way around. The literal meaning is father of booty or father of eternity. Because of cultural Christendom, it was changed to everlasting father.

Any time you have to change the scriptures to fit your paradigm, you can be certain that your paradigm is off-base.

I totally agree. It is certainly a sin to not adhere to the truth.

There is nothing in the Athanasian creed that says that the Son is not the Father; and if there is, it is not an entirely biblical creed.

For while the Father is not the Son (the Father is a Spirit without flesh while the Son is come in the flesh), the Son is the Father in that they are the same Spirit (the Father is a Spirit without flesh and the Son is the same Spirit come in human flesh); being distinct from the Father in that He is come in the flesh while the Father is a Spirit without flesh (John 4:23-24); while the Father, as a Spirit, also dwells within the Son (John 14:7-11) and is in fact the Spirit of Christ.

Consider this definition of the creed

https://www.christianity.com/church/church-history/the-athanasian-creed-11578448.html
Now this is the catholic faith: "That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity,neither blending their persons nor dividing their essence. For the person of the Father is a distinct person, the person of the Son is another, and that of the Holy Spirit still another. But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.

I think you are talking modalism. I don't think alot your trinitarian brothers and sisters will agree with you.

My simple interpretation is Jesus and God are of the same purpose. Nothing to do with substance or person.

 

[CS1]

Since you wish to discuss my unbelief,
I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth. And in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord;
I do not believe that Jesus said the Father was greater than He. I know it is written in the Scriptures
I do not believe that Jesus said the Father was His God. I know it is written in the Scriptures.
I do not believe that it is said Jesus is the Only-Begotten Son. I know it is written in the Scriptures.
I do not believe that it is said the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God. I know it is written in the Scriptures.
I do not believe you as commanded by the Scriptures.

Your self identified piety or scholarship is not of interest to me. I have tested your sayings against the Scriptures and I have found it lacking. Your scholarship is tainted by greek philosophy, but you refuse to grant them citation.

As purveyors of digested scholarship, the question of trust is paramount. I do not trust you in your pursuit of truth. The term אֲבִיעַ֖ד has the component עַ֖ד shown. No further compounding or elaboration. Strong`s 5706 Original Word: עַד Definition: booty, prey
It is not an ankle!

Your rush to judgement clothed in pious outrage is telling of your church experiences.

No one is judging you stop acting like a snowflake. Do you believe Jesus is God from what I see you say "I do not believe" you do not agree with Scripture that Jesus is God?