Understanding God’s election

[Cameron143]

The Good News being the source of Faith is some loaded language that I'll pass on for now.

The Good News God promised through His Prophets in the Tanakh about Messiah is what Paul starts Romans with (Rom1:1-2).

What I said earlier about The Gospel of God's Son was intended to be that Jesus is His Son and that message came at the time we both know and is the culmination of a lot of progressive revelation in history that Paul is touching on in the first 3 verses of Romans.

If we take your statement as is, then we'd have to ask you if you mean the Good News proclaimed to Abraham, or the Good News that according to what you're saying had to have been told to Abel and to everyone thereafter that Heb11 says had Faith throughout history.

Belief in God is Faith and that belief has been in place at least since Abel as you know I've been pointing out elsewhere. I don't think I'm adding God to the equation. God is always in view re: Faith. Jesus made that clear by constantly pointing to God our Father. Paul starts Romans with God promised the Gospel in the Hebrew Scriptures.

I used good news because it's your term. I'm talking about the gospel or the word of God. And there is no salvation without the word of God because comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The whole point of the Romans 1 passage is to show that man is accountable before God because the existence of God is known by all. And if His existence is known, man is responsible before Him. But simply knowing God exists and that we are accountable to Him does nothing to provide salvation. Chapters 5 and 8 are concerned to reveal about salvation, and the role of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in it. Chapters 6 and 7 have Paul anticipating questions on behalf of his audience which he addresses.

 

[Cameron143]

I would say less than 10%

But I know many people I've seen my entire life sit near me hearing the same Gospel preached that never was saved and said had no reason to be saved.

And guess what, the Bible doesn't say Everyone who hears the Gospel preached will be saved either.

The answer is 0. Knowledge of the existence of God has never saved anyone. Faith has always been birthed by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

[lrs68]

The answer is 0. Knowledge of the existence of God has never saved anyone. Faith has always been birthed by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

But I have always said that knowledge of the existence of God could lead to someone going and hearing the Gospel preached but you choose to ignore that. I've always included the manifestations leading to the hearing of the Gospel. So your answer of 0 is pure bunk because it's possible for someone to gain knowledge and that leads to them hearing the Gospel preached.

 

[Cameron143]

But I have always said that knowledge of the existence of God could lead to someone going and hearing the Gospel preached but you choose to ignore that. I've always included the manifestations leading to the hearing of the Gospel. So your answer of 0 is pure bunk because it's possible for someone to gain knowledge and that leads to them hearing the Gospel preached.

Yes, but what would produce salvation is the Spirit and the word of God.
You also miss that all natural fallen men hold the truth in unrighteousness. Left to themselves, they will not be saved but simply fit themselves for destruction.

 

[lrs68]

Yes, but what would produce salvation is the Spirit and the word of God.
You also miss that all natural fallen men hold the truth in unrighteousness. Left to themselves, they will not be saved but simply fit themselves for destruction.

I'm merely pointing out that the manifestations are to peak interest in order to bring someone to the place to hear the Gospel preached and the Spirit of God to bring conviction and the Gift of Salvation.

 

[Cameron143]

I'm merely pointing out that the manifestations are to peak interest in order to bring someone to the place to hear the Gospel preached and the Spirit of God to bring conviction and the Gift of Salvation.

That's not what the passage is doing. The passage simply shows that mankind is accountable before God. The rest you are adding. Nothing is mentioned about piqueing someone's interest.

 

[lrs68]

That's not what the passage is doing. The passage simply shows that mankind is accountable before God. The rest you are adding. Nothing is mentioned about piqueing someone's interest.

You accusing me of something that you claim basically anyone that hears the Gospel gets saved which makes no such claim anywhere but your doctrine?

So tell me, if God manifesting Himself doesn't lead people to a Church to hear the Gospel preached then what does God do to cause people to go hear the Gospel preached?

 

[Cameron143]

You accusing me of something that you claim basically anyone that hears the Gospel gets saved which makes no such claim anywhere but your doctrine?

So tell me, if God manifesting Himself doesn't lead people to a Church to hear the Gospel preached then what does God do to cause people to go hear the Gospel preached?

He draws them to Himself. The ways God does this are myriad. You no doubt have your own testimony, as do others. God works through human agency, life circumstances, personal revelation, etc. And if I've made any accusation, it is that you go beyond the text in your explanation.

 

[lrs68]

He draws them to Himself. The ways God does this are myriad. You no doubt have your own testimony, as do others. God works through human agency, life circumstances, personal revelation, etc. And if I've made any accusation, it is that you go beyond the text in your explanation.

Not claiming you have done anything wrong but to stick with your personal beliefs according to how you understand Scripture.

I was born into a family of Believers and raised in the belief system and educated with both the Torah\Tanakh and New Testament. So I don't apply my experience because even though I had to come to a moment of [DO I ACTUALLY BELIEVE THIS GOD THING] outside of reconciling the ancient Hebrew People to the Gentiles all connected as children of Abraham. I didn't have the experience of never not knowing about God and some how crossing paths with God and now I believe.

So always being in contact with someone who believed in God my entire life has led me to accept that for those born into a family of atheism and no belief system at all. That anything is possible in how God would or could manifest Himself to them so it would cause them to be interested in discovering God.

Throughout the Torah\Tanakh we see non Hebrew People become Proselytized by them witnessing the Power of God like Rahab or by the rumors of God and it led them to join the Faith. So understanding that God manifests Himself to everyone just seems like it's possible for many more like Rahab or Ruth to do the same thing. My Bible claims God is the same so how unsaved people use to come to God surely hasn't changed either.

 

[Cameron143]

Not claiming you have done anything wrong but to stick with your personal beliefs according to how you understand Scripture.

I was born into a family of Believers and raised in the belief system and educated with both the Torah\Tanakh and New Testament. So I don't apply my experience because even though I had to come to a moment of [DO I ACTUALLY BELIEVE THIS GOD THING] outside of reconciling the ancient Hebrew People to the Gentiles all connected as children of Abraham. I didn't have the experience of never not knowing about God and some how crossing paths with God and now I believe.

So always being in contact with someone who believed in God my entire life has led me to accept that for those born into a family of atheism and no belief system at all. That anything is possible in how God would or could manifest Himself to them so it would cause them to be interested in discovering God.

Throughout the Torah\Tanakh we see non Hebrew People become Proselytized by them witnessing the Power of God like Rahab or by the rumors of God and it led them to join the Faith. So understanding that God manifests Himself to everyone just seems like it's possible for many more like Rahab or Ruth to do the same thing. My Bible claims God is the same so how unsaved people use to come to God surely hasn't changed either.

It hasn't. Faith always comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. That's how everyone has become a believer.

 

[Magenta]

You accusing me of something that you claim basically anyone that hears the Gospel gets saved which makes no such claim anywhere but your doctrine?

So tell me, if God manifesting Himself doesn't lead people to a Church to hear the Gospel preached then what does God do to cause people to go hear the Gospel preached?

It has been said many times that it is not just about hearing the physical words spoken but it is about comprehending, Concerning the natural man he hears the gospel being preached as foolishness so there is that... and Jesus opens the ears of people ... He actually talks about circumcised ears just as He speaks of the circumcised heart and God told the Israelis to circumcise their hearts and yet we are told that our hearts are circumcised not by human hands... the obvious answer is that we are circumcised by the Holy Spirit of God. And then we are also told that not everybody hears and that God actually stops up the ears of people so they cannot hear and we are also told that the day is coming and has actually now come when those who hear will live ... so that is actually speaking to the fact that people who hear will be saved... there is no ifs ands or buts just those who hear will live... just as it is a given according to Scripture: Those given to Jesus by God will come to Him... again no if's ands or buts, they actually will, there is no question about it, and He casts none out.