Understanding God’s election

[lrs68]

So, again -- If what you say is true, then why would God want or need to harden the king's heart, since Pharaoh's evil will was perfect in line with God's? What is the purpose behind God's hardening what is already hardened?

Also, you still haven't provided any biblical proof that Pharaoh beat God to the punch by hardening his own heart. Since you have all this backwards, you likely believe that God's ways or steps are not in Himself but are determined by the Pharaoh's of the world. Apparently, you and Studier and others have never read:

Prov 21:1
The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD;
he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.
NIV

As biblical narratives are most prone (indeed designed) to do, they provide solid examples to biblical doctrines. You might wanna also check out these companion, complementary texts to the above:

Prov 16:1
1 To man belong the plans of the heart,
but from the LORD comes the reply of the tongue.
NIV

Prov 16:9
9 In his heart a man plans his course,
but the LORD determines [or directs] his steps.
NIV

Prov 19:21
21 Many are the plans in a man's heart,
but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails.
NIV

Prov 20:24
24 A man's steps are directed by the LORD.
How then can anyone understand his own way?
NIV

Jer 10:23
23 I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own;
it is not for man to direct his steps.
NIV

Dan 5:23
23 Instead, you have set yourself up against the Lord of heaven. You had the goblets from his temple brought to you, and you and your nobles, your wives and your concubines drank wine from them. You praised the gods of silver and gold, of bronze, iron, wood and stone, which cannot see or hear or understand. But you did not honor the God who holds in his hand your life and all your ways.
NIV

God allows the person to be themselves. He didn't change either Pharaoh but let them be themselves. You act like that is impossible when we see it throughout the entire Bible.

 

[lrs68]

So, God knew that all Egypt would grow to hate the Hebrews (Ps 105:25), so why did God have to harden the hearts of the Egyptians and their king? Maybe their hatred didn't run deep enough?

Because that hardening caused Pharaoh to drown himself and his army.

 

[studier]

But on the other hand, no one seeks after God per Rom 3:11. Tell me: Did A&E, after they sinned, seek after God? If not, what makes you think that any of their progeny would inherently have any desire in the evil hearts to do so?

Read the second paragraph here if you're truly interested in Rom3:11. If you have any legitimate questions about the Scripture, I'm happy to try to answer them.

If @PaulThomson answers me back re: Rom3 you'll possibly get some more input. Other than that, several have showed how Rom3 needs to be compared to quite a bit of other Scripture re: men seeking God, which Rom3 based from the Psalms needs to be compared to and not ultimately conflict with.

You mean did A&E seek God who was right there judging them, killing an animal & clothing them, then kicking them out of the Garden and then was there speaking to their sons?

 

[Rufus]

God allows the person to be themselves. He didn't change either Pharaoh but let them be themselves. You act like that is impossible when we see it throughout the entire Bible.

Now, you're talking out of both sides of your mouth. If God allows everyone to be themselves, how come it He who is complete control of man's ways? Why did God cut Pharaoh off at the knees after he did such a dismal job of hardening his own heart? Why did God pour gasoline on an open fire? After God imposed Himself upon Pharaoh, he had zero chance to be himself and completely control his own eternal destiny. And, yet, you FWwers insist that God wants everyone to be saved. He wants no one to perish!

 

[Rufus]

Read the second paragraph here if you're truly interested in Rom3:11. If you have any legitimate questions about the Scripture, I'm happy to try to answer them.

If @PaulThomson answers me back re: Rom3 you'll possibly get some more input. Other than that, several have showed how Rom3 needs to be compared to quite a bit of other Scripture re: men seeking God, which Rom3 based from the Psalms needs to be compared to and not ultimately conflict with.

You mean did A&E seek God who was right there judging them, killing an animal & clothing them, then kicking them out of the Garden and then was there speaking to their sons?

Yeah...now you're catching on! My bible tells me that A&E hid from God and that HE sought them out. What do any of your favorite versions teach?

And for your info Rom 3 is best understood in the context of the two preceding chapters -- you know...like chapter 1 that teaches that all who didn't want to retain God in their knowledge turned to seeking gods of their own making!

 

[studier]

I have read those chapters and don't see in them what you claim. But what is developed quite nicely and EXPLICITLY in the narrative is that the first explicit mention of "hardening" speaks to God's hardening activities. So, give me the specific proof texts within those first three chapters that would tell me that Pharaoh hardened his heart first. And don't forget to factor in Ps 105:25 into the equation.

You don't see indications of a hard heart in Pharaoh in Ex1-3? Maybe we should ask you just what a heart hardened toward God is or what are indications of one.

Read Ps105:24-25 and compare it to Ex1:8-14 to begin with.

Re Jer 13:23, I'm not looking for ALL [your] input on the passage. I'm looking for a simple one word answer to the rhetorical question. You obviously have no spiritual ability to give that answer, do you? Maybe God has hardened your heart to the extent that you can't give such a easy answer?

I chose to answer and did answer you with some detail from context to get to the heart of your agenda. That's where I'll leave my answer.

 

[studier]

I already made my case months ago with the Exodus narrative. Give me the proof texts in Ex 1-3 that teach that Pharaoh hated the Hebrews first and he hardened his own heart first.

Plus you keep ignoring the fact that man's ways are not in himself! God directs all our steps!

Also, you ignore the fact that God's will is NOT contingent on what man decides (Eph 1:11). God works all things according to the counsel of his own will and not according to acts he "foresees" in people.

Your case has been refuted by at least 2 of us even if you can't see this.

I don't even ignore much of what you say, which should tell you something. And I don't typically proof-text and build doctrine from a single verse.

I'm not ignoring but rather fully expecting God to provide my inheritance according to His Plan.

 

[Rufus]

You don't see indications of a hard heart in Pharaoh in Ex1-3? Maybe we should ask you just what a heart hardened toward God is or what are indications of one.

Read Ps105:24-25 and compare it to Ex1:8-14 to begin with.



I chose to answer and did answer you with some detail from context to get to the heart of your agenda. That's where I'll leave my answer.

Give me the post number. Or better yet, just a simple answer to a rhetorical question. What details are needed about the obvious answer to a rhetorical question? (Did you discuss such things as the average number of spots on a leopard? Or how many shades of black Ethiopians can have?) You just admitted what I accused you of the other day: You very likely wrote a windy tome so that you could give an equivocating answer instead of a simple "yes" or "no".

 

[Rufus]

Your case has been refuted by at least 2 of us even if you can't see this.

I don't even ignore much of what you say, which should tell you something. And I don't typically proof-text and build doctrine from a single verse.

I'm not ignoring but rather fully expecting God to provide my inheritance according to His Plan.

Most especially when that one verse runs counter to your heretical views! I mean...what don't you like about Prov 21:1? Furthermore, this isn't the only passage that teaches the sovereignty of God! What about these, as well: Prov 16:1, 9, 19:21; 20:24; Jer 10:23; Dan 5:23? You don't count too swell either, do you? "A single verse"!

 

[Cameron143]

@Cameron143 Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. My Children know this to the point that they say, "Quit it dad!"

I DO NOT believe that "some" of my children can't hear and believe this Message.

He convicts/convinces the WORLD of their sin.......And I have the privilege to HELP.

You are free to believe as you wish and raise your children as you wish. My children know the same scripture. But I can't believe for them or save them. Perhaps you are able to believe for your children and save them.

 

[studier]

Give me the post number. Or better yet, just a simple answer to a rhetorical question. What details are needed about the obvious answer to a rhetorical question? (Did you discuss such things as the average number of spots on a leopard? Or how many shades of black Ethiopians can have?) You just admitted what I accused you of the other day: You very likely wrote a windy tome so that you could give an equivocating answer instead of a simple "yes" or "no".

Nope. I told you some time ago to just easily follow links back. Now we're well beyond that. Then I gave you a link that put you in the general area of the discussion and you got nasty about that. Actually, what I recall doing is taking you through a little context and simple overview and a few verses in that area of Jer13 to provide some explanation of what you're trying to make a big case about. Case closed now unless you go back and find what you're looking for and ask questions about what I wrote.

 

[Rufus]

Because that hardening caused Pharaoh to drown himself and his army.

Since that's the case and God had to "eventually" impose his will upon Pharaoh to achieve his purpose, then there's no way you can logically posit from the scriptures that God didn't do that with Pharaoh sooner rather than later. After all, Ps 105:25 explicitly teaches that God turned the hearts of all Egyptians to hate the Hebrews.

 

[Rufus]

Nope. I told you some time ago to just easily follow links back. Now we're well beyond that. Then I gave you a link that put you in the general area of the discussion and you got nasty about that. Actually, what I recall doing is taking you through a little context and simple overview and a few verses in that area of Jer13 to provide some explanation of what you're trying to make a big case about. Case closed now unless you go back and find what you're looking for and ask questions about what I wrote.

In other words, God has hardened your heart so that you CANNOT give the easy "yes" or "no" answer.

The junk you posted initially about Jer 13:23 totally ignored this verse! Your windy tome completely circumvented the verse, and I had to call you out on that glaring omission. This is why I want just a simple answer from you.

 

[Kroogz]

Perhaps you are able to believe for your children and save them.

@Cameron143 You cannot believe for them.

We are free to choose Christ......And You should be witnessing that fact to them every minute of the day.


Equal Privilege, equal opportunity for ALL.

He died for us, ANYONE can believe/trust in Him for their salvation.

Please, please don't tell them that you can believe for them!.....It is their personal choice.

 

[studier]

Most especially when that one verse runs counter to your heretical views! I mean...what don't you like about Prov 21:1? Furthermore, this isn't the only passage that teaches the sovereignty of God! What about these, as well: Prov 16:1, 9, 19:21; 20:24; Jer 10:23; Dan 5:23? You don't count too swell either, do you? "A single verse"!

Remind me what point you're trying make. Is this intended to prove that God hardened Pharaoh's heart before Pharaoh's heart was already hard?

Or is it that the will of God ultimately prevails and that all His Plan will be accomplished? I've no argument there.

Or is it that He is the King of kings and that ultimately all rule is His. Again, no argument there.

 

[studier]

In other words, God has hardened your heart so that you CANNOT give the easy "yes" or "no" answer.

The junk you posted initially about Jer 13:23 totally ignored this verse! Your windy tome completely circumvented the verse, and I had to call you out on that glaring omission. This is why I want just a simple answer from you.

So, you did or did not read what I wrote re: Jer13?

 

[Kroogz]

Yeah...now you're catching on! My bible tells me that A&E hid from God

Read that again......with an inquiring mind. They were not hiding from God.....They were hiding from the LIAR.

They knew God and were not afraid of Him. God is gracious and merciful. Loving, Just and right.

 

[Magenta]

Read that again......with an inquiring mind. They were not hiding from God.....They were hiding from the LIAR.

They knew God and were not afraid of Him. God is gracious and merciful. Loving, Just and right.

Then the man and his wife heard the voice of the LORD God walking
in the garden in the breeze of the day, and they hid themselves from
the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden. Genesis 3:8

 

[Cameron143]

Can you elaborate?

Does He work on everyone's heart, or just some?



One of my questions was about the absolute authority of God and His Christ. I'm not sure I understood your answer. As time in His Word has progressed, and maybe even early on in my Faith, which I didn't come to until sometime in my mid to late 30's as I recall, I had an inherent understanding that He is the ultimate and absolute authority of all.

I had a talk with a couple old guys (older than me) recently, both unbelievers whom I've known for decades now but don't see often. They are both ex-military and one, a Marine is quick to remind me there are no ex-Marines. They both understand authority structures. They both know who and what I am. When a conversation came around to it and I sensed the opening provided, I found my discussion going to the authority of Christ and I made that very simple for them and Christianity very simple for them from the standpoint that this all boils down to believing who He is, the absolute authority in Heaven and on earth, and submitting to Him in that Faith for the salvation and eternality only He offers and provides. They know the death, burial, and resurrection. They have not accepted the foundation, which I gave them.

By one of the stories one of them had to catch me up on, I could tell that God is tapping him on the shoulder pretty profoundly if not slapping him upside the head. The other one I sense nothing. I've had talks in the past with both, but from different approaches as I recall.

One of the reasons I asked you about the authority issue and making it clear, is that I have come to place strong emphasis on things like Jesus' teaching early in His ministry per John4:23-26 where an unfortunate translation as "worship" is consistently taking place of a word that means to bow in obeisance. It's a word about reverent submission, in context it's true submission, and it is the most heavily emphasized teaching by Jesus in a few verses that we have in the NC due to how many times Jesus used that word in just a few verses. He made emphatic and vitally clear who God is seeking on this earth.

In large part, my view at this juncture is that those who have heard and do not and have not believed are very simply those who are not ready to submit to Him for who He actually is.

My friends after decades are still not there. From what I know of their lives and interests I have at least an opinion why this is.

Not wanting this to be experience leading Truth I'll say this anyway, I'm not a pushy evangelist. I try to follow any leading of His Spirit in any situation. I think that lead was given in this recent event. I followed it. We made certain things about Him very clear. and very simple. It was rejected. I don't lay this rejection on God but on men, and as I said, I can see some things that would cause this rejection, and it basically boils down to autonomy for various reasons, at least in one. The other has one of the more intense backgrounds in war that I've ever personally heard. In the end, there's still autonomy and its indications are not that difficult to pick up on.

I don't know if God works on every heart or the extent to which He does or does not. I do know that when God saves an individual, it begins there.
I'm not sure what you want answered concerning God's authority. My kids understand that they will give an account before God one day, as we all will.
You do seem to recognize that different people have different responses to the gospel and that this may have more to do with the actions of God, and not simply the disposition of man. To what do you attribute the different responses?

 

[Kroogz]

I am confident that the Gospel message is preached to those kids.( He never fails to convict/convince us of His Cross.)

Behind closed doors , Every calvie here tries to convince the ones they love to trust Christ.

But, in the debate realm, they try to convince us of their theology.

I would guess my red x came from someone who has no kids.