Understanding God’s election

[Magenta]

Philippians 3 verse 3; Colossians 2 verse 11; Romans 2 verse 29b ~ For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh. You were also circumcised, in the putting off of your sinful nature, with the circumcision performed by Christ and not by human hands. Circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code.

 

[Magenta]

In the theology of free willers, they have a bad tree producing good fruit. Oh, of course they get around
directly contradicting what Scripture explicitly says -in the words of Jesus Christ no less- by claiming the
natural man is not such a bad guy after all. In fact according to them he is not a bad guy at all, only misunderstood.

Matthew 7:17-18, Luke 6:4a and from John 15:4-5 ~ Every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. For each tree is known by its own fruit. Just as no branch can bear fruit by itself unless it remains in the vine, neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in Me. I am the vine and you are the branches. Apart from Me you can do nothing.

 

[Rufus]

Actually, it is in the Greek grammar, and I could show it to you and explain it to you if you truly wanted to know how to analyze the language and if I thought you were sincere, but we know you're not.

From there on your post is simply bait and switch as usual in effort to cover over your error. You can search back and see how I stated what your m.o. is some time ago. When you get cornered, you begin adding to your ad hominin lengthy narratives to divert from and obscure your error. You're long lost if you think I'd consider legitimate your ability to do much of anything with the Text other than to make stuff up for you to start arguments over.

What specifically is in the "Greek grammar" and where in scripture is this text?

And I have not pulled any bait and switch. I supported my argument with collaborative passages from scripture, which is far more than you can do! There is not one text in scripture that teaches that God loves each and every person in the world in the filial sense. Nor is there any text in scripture that teaches God made a redemptive covenant with each and every person in the world. But there are plenty of passages that teach that God hates, despises, abhors or loathes unrepentant sinners. And there are plenty of passages that teach God loves his covenant family (children). And all mankind w/o exception are not God's children!

 

[Rufus]

Study the hardening of hearts and note men's actions in hardening their own hearts and how God at some point facilitates the process.

Men naturally harden their hearts after God removes his restraining grace from them! Check out the Exodus story some day. Not a difficult concept to understand.

 

[Rufus]

In the theology of free willers, they have a bad tree producing good fruit. Oh, of course they get around
directly contradicting what Scripture explicitly says -in the words of Jesus Christ no less- by claiming the
natural man is not such a bad guy after all. In fact according to them he is not a bad guy at all, only misunderstood.

Matthew 7:17-18, Luke 6:4a and from John 15:4-5 ~ Every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. For each tree is known by its own fruit. Just as no branch can bear fruit by itself unless it remains in the vine, neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in Me. I am the vine and you are the branches. Apart from Me you can do nothing.

And the megabytes of irony here is that the "natural man" is totally misunderstood by FWers!

 

[Magenta]

And the megabytes of irony here is that the "natural man" is totally misunderstood by FWers!

Unfortunately, in the theology of free willers, it seems the natural man does not even exist, since they have him so badly
confused with the spiritual man, ascribing to the former characteristics, qualities, and abilities possessed only by the latter.

And despite what Jesus says of the natural man, they frequently outright deny and contradict what He explicitly states.

 

[studier]

What specifically is in the "Greek grammar" and where in scripture is this text?

Seriously? Look back a few posts.

 

[studier]

Men naturally harden their hearts after God removes his restraining grace from them! Check out the Exodus story some day. Not a difficult concept to understand.

We've already discussed this also and shown you how the hardening of Pharoah is described.

 

[studier]

And the megabytes of irony here is that the "natural man" is totally misunderstood by FWers!

And misunderstood by you and others.

 

[Magenta]

And misunderstood by you and others.

At least he exists in our theology and is not capable of doing the things you free
willer guys ascribe to him that Scripture attributes ONLY to the spiritual man.

But you do not know the difference. You are incapable of that discernment.

All your years of study did not reveal any of those Scriptural truths to you. Pity. What a waste of time.

 

[studier]

And how if God does not intervene, how every heart will follow this fate.

And how God did intervene in history by, among other things, making His power and divinity known to all men.

Since you're here, some time ago you and I were discussing this concept of the heart, and I'll mention it here but probably not continue the discussion on this absurd thread.

I seriously doubt you or anyone here can take us through all the things said about the human heart and convince us that it is as far gone as you and others say it is. Specifically, that it has no abilities to will or think things of God.

For one thing, it's spoken of just by word almost 1,000 times in the Text in different ways, and not all are re: evil. The problem with these discussions is that a little proof-texting is perceived to go a long way, but it's mostly slanted nonsense.

 

[GWH]

It would seem to me, if you had any real intention of harmonization – that you would spend a lot more time looking at verses which are addressed to the people of God and do not apply to all.
In doing so, it will then become clear that God does not treat all people the same:

John 12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again: 40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,
Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.”

Why would God blind their eyes and harden their hearts? Is it not because they were not chosen? God will save His people and leave others to wallow in unbelief! His saving grace is not provided to ALL. He does not love ALL in the same way. In fact, He will put a stumbling block in front of many.
Therefore, God has made it impossible for all to believe! It is not of man but of God.

Okay, let's harmonize John 12:39 with these: Rom. 2:11, Gal. 2:6, Eph. 6:9, Col. 3:25.

As I said previously, rather than both sides denying each other's evidence,
the solution is for both sides to cite Scripture supporting each side's argument
and then work together to harmonize them.

(That is the approach we are using in the systematic and dialectical study of the doctrine of election
on the Hermeneutics thread. All who are willing to apply this method are welcome to participate.)

 

[studier]

Okay, let's harmonize John 12:39 with these: Rom 2:11, Gal 2:6, Eph 6:9, Col 3:25

I'm just reposting to see if I can get the Scripture look-up to work.

 

[GWH]

Okay, let's harmonize John 12:39 with these: Rom2:11, Gal2:6, Eph6:9, Col3:25

I'm just reposting to see if I can get the Scripture look-up to work.

Thanks, I just retyped them during the Edit time period.

 

[Cameron143]

And how God did intervene in history by, among other things, making His power and divinity known to all men.

Since you're here, some time ago you and I were discussing this concept of the heart, and I'll mention it here but probably not continue the discussion on this absurd thread.

I seriously doubt you or anyone here can take us through all the things said about the human heart and convince us that it is as far gone as you and others say it is. Specifically, that it has no abilities to will or think things of God.

For one thing, it's spoken of just by word almost 1,000 times in the Text in different ways, and not all are re: evil. The problem with these discussions is that a little proof-texting is perceived to go a long way, but it's mostly slanted nonsense.

Everyone pays alot of attention to Acts 2:38, but little attention is given to Acts 2:37. Here we find that Peter's preaching has great effect on some individuals. They hear...mind is engaged...are pricked in the heart...heart is engaged...and said...the will is engaged.
How do you account for the engagement of the mind, heart, and will of some while others in the exact same set of circumstances are not affected?

 

[studier]

Thanks, I just retyped them during the Edit time period.

It's a bit buggy or takes a while or ???

 

[Magenta]

And how God did intervene in history by, among other things, making His power and divinity known to all men.

Making His existence known is not to be confused with making the gospel known.

And don't forget, not all hear. Oh, wait. You refuse to acknowledge that some do not hear.

No, rather than affirm what Jesus said in this regard, you contradict Him.

And then pretend it is others who are confused about who the natural man is.

Romans 10:13-15 ~ Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on Him in Whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of Whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? As it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

 

[Magenta]

It's a bit buggy or takes a while or ???

It is not instantaneous, no. And they will not show in a preview, either. Only after being posted.

But you copy/pasted hot links into your post. That disables the Logos software.

 

[GWH]

It's a bit buggy or takes a while or ???

Well, I had copied them from a previous post, but that did not work when I refreshed the page.

 

[studier]

Everyone pays alot of attention to Acts 2:38, but little attention is given to Acts 2:37. Here we find that Peter's preaching has great effect on some individuals. They hear...mind is engaged...are pricked in the heart...heart is engaged...and said...the will is engaged.
How do you account for the engagement of the mind, heart, and will of some while others in the exact same set of circumstances are not affected?

Firstly, accepting for discussion your mind, heart, will analysis, I just read what's there. What they heard stabbed them in the heart.

I don't find this to be a unique experience for human beings to hear something that does this to them. These Jews just became convinced they'd killed the Jewish Messiah/King the Jews had been awaiting for many generations.

And in this section, we're not clearly told that some didn't believe.

So, for me it's similar to the soils parable we're discussing on the other thread, where we're only told so much and then we speculate by trying to debatably insert things.

I'm going to go to the other thread so won't be answering you here.