Understanding God’s election

[Jackson129]

I understand that concept as well. And im sure there are verses where it does matter who is addressed and who isint. Take Moses and the 10 commandments he was speaking to only Isreal at that time. Yet he was speaking to us even today and everyone who reads it. I see it sort of like this. I dont know who the elect are you dont nobody does except God. So when God speaks though his inspired word maybe he is only addressing his elect. But he speaks from up high so down here everyone can hear it but only his elect respond. I dont know if im describing it right what im trying to say lol.

 

[BillyBob]

I understand that concept as well. And im sure there are verses where it does matter who is addressed and who isint. Take Moses and the 10 commandments he was speaking to only Isreal at that time. Yet he was speaking to us even today and everyone who reads it. I see it sort of like this. I dont know who the elect are you dont nobody does except God. So when God speaks though his inspired word maybe he is only addressing his elect. But he speaks from up high so down here everyone can hear it but only his elect respond. I dont know if im describing it right what im trying to say lol.

The Bible is a difficult book to read and understand. I often read a section and come to a certain conclusion, then re-read it to mean something different. But, if we continue reading, I believe God will continue to give us a better understanding. No one has a perfect understanding, but each of us should strive for a better understanding.

 

[Jackson129]

The Bible is a difficult book to read and understand. I often read a section and come to a certain conclusion, then re-read it to mean something different. But, if we continue reading, I believe God will continue to give us a better understanding. No one has a perfect understanding, but each of us should strive for a better understanding.

I do the same thing. And whats weird is me and you could come to completely differnt conclusions. Sometimes I wonder If everything whote only has one meaning shouldn't everyone be on the same page then. But I know God is happy when we read his word and discuss his word. Regardless of and disparities we have amoung ourselves. I also know he is capable of being displeased with the way we handle those differences.

 

[Magenta]

I do the same thing. And whats weird is me and you could come to completely differnt conclusions. Sometimes I wonder If everything whote only has one meaning shouldn't everyone be on the same page then. But I know God is happy when we read his word and discuss his word. Regardless of and disparities we have amoung ourselves. I also know he is capable of being displeased with the way we handle those differences.

There is a certain elasticity to words, and given how many translations there are, we can see the same verse using different words which carry different meanings, depending on which version we are using, but those various words should be adding depth to our understanding, not taking away from our understanding... and where there is uncertainty we should allow the text to simply say what it does and not try to read into it or just offhandedly dismiss it, especially when there are corroborating verses which supplement what is being communicated. For instance, a little while ago someone tried to take me to task for saying God gives us what we pray for/ask as long as it is in His will, and they came against me because one verse does not say anything about His will, so the other person was just basically saying God will give us anything we ask for whether it is His will or not. That means I could ask God to have someone kill someone and He will though He is against murder. It really does get that ridiculous in discussions. Verses tell us nobody can come unless God draws us, that He draws us with loving kindness so we will repent, and people will argue about whether that means God enables us, because it is believed by some that not everyone needs any help at all from God. And yet that belief falls on its face in light of what Scripture actually says... and all these discussions in this thread and others like it revolve around whether the natural man has free will. Meanwhile the Bible says the whole world is under the influence of the evil one who has blinded people and are taken captive to his will. So we can talk about the choices people make being based on their nature and someone will come along and claim we say nobody has any choice at all when nobody has said any such thing. What you and I and others say is that God did a work in us first, and that is what is disputed, even though the Bible is clear that with man it is impossible and it is Jesus Who sets us free.

2 Corinthians 4 verses 3-4

 

[GWH]

I do the same thing. And whats weird is me and you could come to completely differnt conclusions. Sometimes I wonder If everything whote only has one meaning shouldn't everyone be on the same page then. But I know God is happy when we read his word and discuss his word. Regardless of and disparities we have amoung ourselves. I also know he is capable of being displeased with the way we handle those differences.

I believe God is not tricky, so everyone who seeks understanding of how to be saved with an open mind will find agreement regarding the Christian creed and almost every secondary doctrine except election, baptism and tongues if discussions on CC are any indicator.

 

[BillyBob]

There is a certain elasticity to words, and given how many translations there are, we can see the same verse using different words which carry different meanings, depending on which version we are using, but those various words should be adding depth to our understanding, not taking away from our understanding... and where there is uncertainty we should allow the text to simply say what it does and not try to read into it or just offhandedly dismiss it, especially when there are corroborating verses which supplement what is being communicated. For instance, a little while ago someone tried to take me to task for saying God gives us what we pray for/ask as long as it is in His will, and they came against me because one verse does not say anything about His will, so the other person was just basically saying God will give us anything we ask for whether it is His will or not. That means I could ask God to have someone kill someone and He will though He is against murder. It really does get that ridiculous in discussions. Verses tell us nobody can come unless God draws us, that He draws us with loving kindness so we will repent, and people will argue about whether that means God enables us, because it is believed by some that not everyone needs any help at all from God. And yet that belief falls on its face in light of what Scripture actually says... and all these discussions in this thread and others like it revolve around whether the natural man has free will. Meanwhile the Bible says the whole world is under the influence of the evil one who has blinded people and are taken captive to his will. So we can talk about the choices people make being based on their nature and someone will come along and claim we say nobody has any choice at all when nobody has said any such thing. What you and I and others say is that God did a work in us first, and that is what is disputed, even though the Bible is clear that with man it is impossible and it is Jesus Who sets us free.

2 Corinthians 4 verses 3-4

You are correct. Many, would read this scripture and overlook the word “god” (lower case), thus changing the meaning entirely. They would also interpret “those who are perishing” to mean all unbelievers rather than those who are not God's chosen, His elect.
2Cor 4:3-4
3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

 

[Magenta]

You are correct. Many, would read this scripture and overlook the word “god” (lower case), thus changing the meaning entirely. They would also interpret “those who are perishing” to mean all unbelievers rather than those who are not God's chosen, His elect.
2Cor 4:3-4
3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

Yes, Scripture plainly excludes us from the whole world, and openly asserts we are called out of the world!
My apologies for taking so long to reply, as I was looking for this panel, which I thought I had already posted,
which would mean I had a url for it, but I could not find it in my document nor in my post stream, so then I had
to re-upload it, and save all the info, which is a fair bit of fiddling around etc etc... LOL

1 John 5 verses 18-19 ~ We know that anyone born of God does not keep on sinning; the One who was born of God protects him, and the evil one cannot touch him. We know that we are of God, and that the whole world is under the power of the evil one.

 

[Rufus]

• Behold I stand at the door and knock. If ANY man hear my voice and open the door I will come into him and will and supp with him and he with me. Rev 3;20.

If Any--- any human on earth.

If Any man hear my voice and open the door--- we have to open the door.

IMO God's grace is the knock. It is available to all. Man's free will opens the door.

That dosent mean our free will saved us as some think it does. God's grace is the knock. Without it there is no door to knock on. There is no choice to even be made. Man's free will to open the door is part of the equation though.

Though grace (the knock,the door, the choice) we are saved by faith ( us opening the door) and faith by hearing (the Bible being read or preached to anyone in the world)

But who effectually opens the door? Knocking doesn't save anyone but...door opening does, right? And then there is this:

Rev 3:7
7 "To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write:

These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.
NIV

 

[Rufus]

Let he that hath an ear..hear what the spirit say to the churches. Every man or woman who is not deaf has an ear. The words of the Bible are for all to hear. Only his sheep know his voice yes. But he spoke to every sheep. How is anybody ever saved if only his sheep hear his voice if they need to be saved to hear it in the first place?

"How", you ask? By God's effectual grace! "ALL that the Father gives me, shall come to me". Does the text above say that goats hear his voice? Yet, both sheep and goats will stand before Christ one day to be judged.

 

[Rufus]

No, God commands us to love and pray for our enemies,
so that we will be like God, who loves His enemies. (Rom. 5:5-8)
I agree that truth seems to be quite difficult for some folks to comprehend.

Most of all with you; for you are the Master at Eisegesis precisely because you cannot accept the truth. So...you just make it up as you go. The way you interpret Rom 8:29 is a great example of this fact.

 

[Magenta]

But who effectually opens the door? Knocking doesn't save anyone but...door opening does, right? And then there is this:

Rev 3:7
7 "To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write:

These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.
NIV

If anyone hears... yes, and who hears? His sheep. Others do not hear. This is explicitly stated.

 

[Rufus]

Jackson,
I do not think anyone has said that scripture is not meant to instruct everyone who reads it. They are, however, saying that it is very important to understand who is speaking and to whom they are speaking.
For example: Suppose that I was speaking to a large group of Christian friends and I said:
“You all are very loving and kind.” No one should take that to mean that I said that all are loving and kind, meaning the whole world. That is exactly what many do!

According to Jackson, when an unbeliever reads 1Pet 1:1 that addresses the "elect", the unbeliever has every reason in the world to believe he qualifies as being one. Or in Peter's second letter whom he wrote to "dear friends" in the faith (chapter 2), any unbeliever is justified to believe that (s)he, too, is a friend of the apostle. The insanity never ends with FWers!

 

[Jackson129]

According to Jackson, when an unbeliever reads 1Pet 1:1 that addresses the "elect", the unbeliever has every reason in the world to believe he qualifies as being one. Or in Peter's second letter whom he wrote to "dear friends" in the faith (chapter 2), any unbeliever is justified to believe that (s)he, too, is a friend of the apostle. The insanity never ends with FWers!

Yep you got it totally right that is totally accurate of what I said. The unbeliever hear the same words you do the same words I do. But only the elect hear and understand. By the grace of God.

 

[BillyBob]

In speaking of the elect and unbelievers, I do believe that there are many people who are both. In other words, "they are the elect who have not yet come to faith", as we all were at some point in time. This is something that we must all be aware of.

 

[Magenta]

In speaking of the elect and unbelievers, I do believe that there are many people who are both. In other words, "they are the
elect who have not yet come to faith", as we all were at some point in time. This is something that we must all be aware of.

I was thinking the same thing and had just started my response below...

Yep you got it totally right that is totally accurate of what I said. The unbeliever hear the same
words you do the same words I do. But only the elect hear and understand. By the grace of God.

The elect, but in what condition? Scripture says we were chosen beforehand... do you believe that? Some do not.

Has the person been born again yet? Some believe they effectuate this condition while they are dead in sins. This is a large part of the disagreement. They have the dead person, the slave to sin, the lover of darkness, who can neither receive nor comprehend the spiritual things of God and who is hostile to God in their minds and opposed to the spiritual things of God... yeah, they have that person using their so-called free will to believe, while suppressing the truth in unrighteousness, before being born again or having their heart, that stony ground incapable of growing anything good and in dire need of replacement, circumcised.

John 3 verse 3, John 1 verse 13, James 1 verse 18, Romans 8 verse 9b, 1 Peter 2 verse 9 ~ Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.” Born not of blood, nor of the desire or will of man, but born of God. He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we would be a kind of firstfruits of His creation. If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. You are chosen to proclaim the virtues of Him Who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light. My soul will exult in my God, for He has clothed me with garments of salvation, and wrapped me in a robe of righteousness. Plus Isaiah 61 verse 10

 

[Magenta]

Jesus' words in John 15 verse 19 and John 14 verse 17 ~ If you were of the world, it would love you as its own. Instead, the world hates you, because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. The world cannot receive Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him.

 

[Magenta]

Jesus’ words in John 6 verse 65 I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them. Plus Colossians 1 verse 21 and 2 verse 13; Ephesians 2 verse 1a and 3b; Philippians 1 verse 6 and 2 verse 13