Understanding God’s election

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GWH

Groovy
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Oct 19, 2024
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Rufus said:
Nope it is not resistible under the New Covenant. Jesus gives eternal life to all whom the Father has given to Him (Jn 17:2). There's no forcing or coercing when Christ raises the dead. Is that what Jesus did to Lazarus when he commanded him to come forth!? Or did he rescue a helpless dead person from his dark tomb!?

And when God instills the Fear of Himself into the hearts of his covenant people so that they'll never turn away from Him, is that grace resistible (Jer 32)?

Or when God circumcises the hearts of his covenant people so that they can love him, is that grace resistible, too (Deut 30)?

Furthermore, God's will or plan can never be thwarted (Job 42:2). And when God acts, no one can reverse it (Isa 43:13)!

And neither passages in Matthew imply freewill. But what they do imply is a moral obligation of people to obey since God never lowered his moral/spiritual standards after Adam fell.
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God gives to Jesus all who do not resist His call/seeking grace.
God instills love into the hearts of souls who invite Him in.
God circumcises the hearts of souls who seek salvation via faith like Abraham.
This is God's will/plan.
Matt. 7:7, 23:37 and Deut. 30:19 obviously imply MFW.
 
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PaulThomson

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Oct 29, 2023
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Cameron143 said:
God can ordain prayer? As a means to bring His will to pass?
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Prayer is not a means to bring God's will to pass, if He can make His will come to pass whether we pray or not. Means CAUSE an effect. If the effect of God's decree is already decreed before we pray, it is God's decree of the effect that caused the effect. The praying had no actual effect, and was not causative.

That would be like saying that I am going to enter that shop and rob the till when that present customer leaves. The customer leaves and I rob the shop. Then I claim that the customer leaving was a means I used to bring about my will to rob the store. It was not a means. It was merely a coincidental event. I could have robbed the shop while the customer was still there. The fact that I robbed it after they left, does not make their prior leaving a means I used to bring about my will. Their leaving was not causative.
 
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GWH

Groovy
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Oct 19, 2024
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#11,923
PaulThomson said:
Prayer is not a means to bring God's will to pass, if He can make His will come to pass whether we pray or not. Means CAUSE an effect. If the effect of God's decree is already decreed before we pray, it is God's decree of the effect that caused the effect. The praying had no actual effect, and was not causative.

That would be like saying that I am going to enter that shop and rob the till when that present customer leaves. The customer leaves and I rob the shop. Then I claim that the customer leaving was a means I used to bring about my will to rob the store. It was not a means. It was merely a coincidental event. I could have robbed the shop while the customer was still there. The fact that I robbed it after they left, does not make their prior leaving a means I used to bring about my will. Their leaving was not causative.
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True, except that an unbeliever's prayer of repentance allows God's will for that sinner to be saved to occur,
and a saint's prayer of confession of sin allows God's will for refilling by the Holy Spirit to happen.

Also, in general the best intercessory prayer is for God's will to be done,
because fallible souls do not know what is best while the heavenly Father does.
(It also promotes efficient/shorter prayer meetings :^)
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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#11,924
PaulThomson said:
Prayer is not a means to bring God's will to pass, if He can make His will come to pass whether we pray or not. Means CAUSE an effect. If the effect of God's decree is already decreed before we pray, it is God's decree of the effect that caused the effect. The praying had no actual effect, and was not causative.

That would be like saying that I am going to enter that shop and rob the till when that present customer leaves. The customer leaves and I rob the shop. Then I claim that the customer leaving was a means I used to bring about my will to rob the store. It was not a means. It was merely a coincidental event. I could have robbed the shop while the customer was still there. The fact that I robbed it after they left, does not make their prior leaving a means I used to bring about my will. Their leaving was not causative.
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So you are open to God saving fallen angels, but not God directed prayer? What about praying in the Spirit? Is it directed by God?
 
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