Understanding God’s election

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Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
3,593
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That is nothing but an injection of an assumed limitation to the meaning of "all" into that one verse that is nowhere stated. No matter what the context may be addressing within which that one verse is couched, you have absolutely no logical, grammatical nor lingual foundation under your feet to try and establish such a notion.

I say that on the basis of the fact that any one of us, including Jesus, can state stand-alone facts of absolute universality within a context without the constraints or forced meaning from said context.

For example, I can say this:

- My truck carries me and my cargo to where I need to go.

- All vehicles, including trucks, universally have round wheels rather than square.

Where the latter applies to all vehicles, inclusive of my truck, it remains universally true given its all-inclusiveness.

So, you can limit that universality of that scripture in your own mind if you so choose, but that doesn't make it true in any way whatsoever. Mormons and Jehovah's witnesses use the same tactics as you are trying foist here, and it simply doesn't work. Calvinists , Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Moonies, Muslims, et al, they routinely practice interpretational methodologies of convenience in their attempts at proving their false doctrines while violating known literary conventions in the Hebrew and Greek from which our Bibles were translated.

Nice try. I invite you to try and practice what you're trying claim here in your own speech patterns, and you will soon find yourself realizing the fallacy of your claim.

MM
But "all" in scripture is often used in the bible in the limited sense! And the fact that the term "men" is not in Jn 12:32, then this leaves the door wide ajar to understand "all" in the collective or limited sense, e.g. all peoples, all nations. Do a word study on the Gr. term and get back to us.
 
Nov 21, 2020
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That is nothing but an injection of an assumed limitation to the meaning of "all" into that one verse that is nowhere stated. No matter what the context may be addressing within which that one verse is couched, you have absolutely no logical, grammatical nor lingual foundation under your feet to try and establish such a notion.

I say that on the basis of the fact that any one of us, including Jesus, can state stand-alone facts of absolute universality within a context without the constraints or forced meaning from said context.

For example, I can say this:

- My truck carries me and my cargo to where I need to go.

- All vehicles, including trucks, universally have round wheels rather than square.

Where the latter applies to all vehicles, inclusive of my truck, it remains universally true given its all-inclusiveness.

So, you can limit that universality of that scripture in your own mind if you so choose, but that doesn't make it true in any way whatsoever. Mormons and Jehovah's witnesses use the same tactics as you are trying foist here, and it simply doesn't work. Calvinists , Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Moonies, Muslims, et al, they routinely practice interpretational methodologies of convenience in their attempts at proving their false doctrines while violating known literary conventions in the Hebrew and Greek from which our Bibles were translated.

Nice try. I invite you to try and practice what you're trying claim here in your own speech patterns, and you will soon find yourself realizing the fallacy of your claim.

MM
John 12:32 is about the elect of God and them only!