Understanding God’s election

[Magenta]

Jeremiah 17:9 plus John 3:19-20

 

[Magenta]

Ephesians 4:17-18; Luke 6:43; Jeremiah 10:14 In the futility of their thinking, unbelievers are darkened in their understanding and alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardness of their hearts. A diseased tree cannot bear good fruit. Every man is senseless and devoid of knowledge.

 

[Musicmaster]

Hebrews 6:4-6
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away.

This verse is specifies that those who were enlightened and received the Holy Spirit.

Then have fallen away.

When a person who once boasted in Christ and no longer boasts in Christ, has fallen away, period.

How do you know that you are saved?

Did you take note of to whom that was written? It was written to the HEBREWS...Israel, who was under the Kingdom Gospel.

Now, let's look at what applies to us today:

2 Corinthians 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Some out there believe Holy Spirit is weak and incapable of holding in to those whom He has SEALED. I am not one who holds to such about the Lord of Glory. His grasp upon all of us who are saved is absolute and more powerful than all that may come against us in this universe. Some believe in weak gods who are incapable of having sealed them unto salvation, or that they retain their salvation by their own puny efforts and works. They can go for it and see where it leads them. As for me, I will remain with the Lord who has SEALED me in His salvation, with all of us who are saved having the EARNEST of salvation freely offered as a promise to all who choose to believe. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

That confusion is the result of failing to rightly divide the word of truth.

MM

 

[Inquisitor]

Hebrews 6:4-6
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away.

You miss the point.

God has promised not to never let you go, that is a fact.

You have the rip cord in your hand though and you can bail out at any time.

You do not understand that we are on a two way street.

Galatians 6:8
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit
will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

 

[Rufus]

Context, context, context...

The context of Jesus' statement about none coming to Him apart from being drawn by the Father was in relation to those who would be His disciples, not the general populace of unbelievers coming to Him in faith.

John 6:44-57, 59-71
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. {Not forced, not coerced, not led by God, but they COME unto Him when speaking of the world of believers in general.}
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. [No mention of forced belief.]
48 I am that bread of life.
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. [MAY eat, not FORCED to eat.]
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. [Conditional, based upon the individual's own will.]
52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. ...
59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? [WILL they want to go away? Not any indication of them being forced by God to stay.]
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. [No mention of that knowledge having been given the assurance to them by God that Christ has the words of eternal life. They recognized that on their own.]
70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Two groups are addressed in this context...the general populace of unbelievers willingly placing their faith in Christ, and those who would be His disciples and remain so can only be those who were drawn to Him by the Father. This context DRIPS COPIOUS amounts of revelation for free will of each unbelieving individual has before them in this life. There is nothing in this even hinting at irresistible faith and grace, such as the TULIP doctrine.

But, some will continue with the group-think they have adopted for themselves for various reasons no matter what scripture states IN CONTEXT. To them I say...go for it. We all will answer as to what we have chosen to believe in this life and what we taught to others, for all who teach will be judged doubly for daring to practice teaching doctrine to others.

MM

I find it rather disingenuous of you to preach "context, context, context" while at the same time totally ignoring the audience to whom Jesus was addressing his words, which were phony baloney, fake, faux, wanna-be disciples whom he just fed the day before and who followed him in boats so that he could give them more food. After Jesus' dialogue with them, they found his sayings so hard that most of them deserted him. Since you're so big on context, you should find out precisely who Jesus was addressing. You could start at v.22. Hint: He wasn't addressing the 12 per se until near the end (v.67-70.)

 

[Rufus]

Lotta stuff about being forced... or not forced. Where in the world does that come from?

We are drawn with loving kindness.

And no mention of the natural man, being a slave to sin, lover of darkness, captive to the will of the devil,
none being righteous, blinded by the god of this world, the gospel being foolishness, like anyone is just
gonna up and accept the what they see as foolishness to be God's own truth without the intervention of
God Himself... gosh it goes on and on what gets ignored. Jesus came to open our eyes and ears and set us free.

Luke 4:18-19 The Spirit of the Lord is on Me, because He has anointed Me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to release the oppressed, 19to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.

 

[Rufus]

It's all the FWs have. They simply cannot see themselves as being helpless, powerless and hopeless and in dire need of rescuing. They have conned themselves into believing that their "freewills" are sufficient for the task of salvation.

May God have mercy on their souls

 

[Inquisitor]

I'm simply telling you the meaning of total depravity as I understand it from reformed writings. Whatever you prefer personally doesn't matter to me. I'm just trying to get to a common understanding so we aren't talking past one another.

Unless you abide by the dictionary definitions then our debate has ended.

Did Calvin understand the meaning of those words?

 

[Inquisitor]

Lotta stuff about being forced... or not forced. Where in the world does that come from?

We are drawn with loving kindness.

And no mention of the natural man, being a slave to sin, lover of darkness, captive to the will of the devil,
none being righteous, blinded by the god of this world, the gospel being foolishness, like anyone is just
gonna up and accept the what they see as foolishness to be God's own truth without the intervention of
God Himself... gosh it goes on and on what gets ignored. Jesus came to open our eyes and ears and set us free.

Luke 4:18-19 The Spirit of the Lord is on Me, because He has anointed Me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to release the oppressed, 19to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.

Calvinism states you have zero input.

You have been elect from eternity.

Before Jesus even gave His life for you; you were elect.

You can babble on but anything you say cannot alter God's will.

 

[Inquisitor]

It's all the FWs have. They simply cannot see themselves as being helpless, powerless and hopeless and in dire need of rescuing. They have conned themselves into believing that their "freewills" are sufficient for the task of salvation.

May God have mercy on their souls

Yes Rufus, I agree.

Though you may be one of those foolish people also.

Thinking you are elect when you never were.

 

[Inquisitor]

Two great examples of this "falling away" are Saul and Judas. And neither one were ever true believers.

An even better example is Israel.

 

[Rufus]

Calvinism states you have zero input.

You have been elect from eternity.

Before Jesus even gave His life for you; you were elect.

You can babble on but anything you say cannot alter God's will.

You mean kinda like a cold stiff reposing on a mortuary slab? Those sly Calvinists might actually have something there...

 

[Inquisitor]

No, it most definitely does not have to mean what you say above. "Total" Depravity can mean what you say if you understand "total" in the qualitative sense. But "total" can also be understood in the quantitative sense, e.g. all four of man's faculties that reside in man's heart are depraved. IOW, the entire or total or whole heart is depraved or infected with sin. There is no part of the human heart that is not affected by sin, corruption or evil.

Furthermore, the bible teaches that God directly and indirectly restrains evil in the world. This fact alone refutes your understanding of "total". I wrote a post not too long ago on this matter which justifies why the Reformers had it right when they understood "total" in the quantitative sense. If you want I can look up that post and give you the particulars on where to find it, etc.

What is quantitative about the description below.

10 “There is none righteous, not even one;
11 There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;
12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
There is none who does good,
There is not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave,
With their tongues they keep deceiving,”
“The poison of asps is under their lips”;
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness”;
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood,
16 Destruction and misery are in their paths,
17 And the path of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
(Romans 3)

Looks like Total Depravity to me.

 

[Rufus]

An even better example is Israel.

Save, of course, for God's remnant which he always has had. You know how that works, right: Many are called, but few are chosen?

 

[Inquisitor]

You mean kinda like a cold stiff reposing on a mortuary slab? Those sly Calvinists might actually have something there...

That's the doctrine of Calvinism.

Sola God's will.

 

[Inquisitor]

Save, of course, for God's remnant which he always has had. You know how that works, right: Many are called, but few are chosen?

You don't need to flap your jaw.

God's Sovereign Will!

 

[Cameron143]

Unless you abide by the dictionary definitions then our debate has ended.

Did Calvin understand the meaning of those words?

What are you talking about? You gave a dictionary definition as did I. I also explained to you how the term "total depravity" is understood in reformed circles. You don't have to receive what I have shared, but what I shared is in line with reformed theology. So...I do believe that man is totally depraved according to reformed thinking, but not as you define it. Since the term originated as a result of the Reformation, I think I'll stick with the original understanding.

 

[Rufus]

What is quantitative about the description below.

10 “There is none righteous, not even one;
11 There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;
12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
There is none who does good,
There is not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave,
With their tongues they keep deceiving,”
“The poison of asps is under their lips”;
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness”;
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood,
16 Destruction and misery are in their paths,
17 And the path of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
(Romans 3)

Looks like Total Depravity to me.

Apples and oranges. The above has nothing to do with Total Depravity. But it has everything to do with the universal indictment of all unregenerate people.

 

[Inquisitor]

Apples and oranges. The above has nothing to do with Total Depravity. But it has everything to do with the universal indictment of all unregenerate people.

All humanity was degenerate in Adam.

All means all.

 

[Rufus]

You don't need to flap your jaw.

God's Sovereign Will!

Oh...so now you play God and know my needs, do you? I read a very interesting quote the other day in a book someone gave me. I'm indebted to you for providing the impetus for me to quote it. Ready?

The idol of idols is the idol of self. Human pride always stands in opposition to the glory and plan of God. (Paul David Tripp)

You FWs have a lot more in common with idol-loving, idol worshiping apostate Israel than you can ever imagine. A few months ago I said something along very similar lines because I wrote basically that the greatest contradiction in this world is that it's filled with religious people, yet the vast majority of its people are simultaneously atheistic to the core, practically speaking, because they live their personal lives as though there is no God. Can you spell SELF-DECEIVED?