Understanding God’s election

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HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
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Nope...God created man good. Man chose to die. And man chose the consequences we now live under. So man is responsible for his own condition.
This is the point.

1) Yes Man chose to die.

2) God designed man and God designed what the consequences of the fall would be which is in your view
man's mind, will and emotions are completely corrupted (each man is born this way) by the fall such that he can never respond positively to God's Good News unless regenerated first.

The point is God designed/created this inability fallen nature, it was not some unintended consequence. God created man remember.

I agree that the God knew and designed what the fallen nature would be, however, I do not agree that what you describe as man's fallen nature is correct according to scripture.

Your view makes God responsible for all of man's sin because of his fallen nature which God ultimately designed to be that way.

My view keeps intact man's accountability/responsibility for his sins because I do not believe God preprogrammed the fallen nature you describe.
 
Jul 3, 2015
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Your view makes God responsible for all of man's sin because of his fallen nature which God ultimately designed to be that way.
Wrong. Man is not absolved of his responsibility as you want to believe so you can
blame God. What you are doing is ignoring what Scripture actually says. Again.

My view keeps intact man's accountability/responsibility for his sins because I do not believe God preprogrammed the fallen nature you describe.
God is the One Who defines what sin is and holds you to account for your own despite
whatever it is you want to erroneously believe about people you wrongfully label.
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
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That's the program alright.
Rufus screwed up again did he? Pity.
I think the maintaining the language of double-speak is a challenge and that is what the so called "doctrines of grace" require.

I agree with you there are so many "types" in scripture that repudiate this "inability" doctrine.

Even Adam and Eve’s acceptance of the garment provided to them by God is a proof that they did not resist by accepting the garment offered to them for free.

Their doctrine has it that all man resist and are programmed to resist unless God regenerates firsts, these supposed "doctrines of grace"
have equated bondage to sin with the moral inability to confess sin without one single biblical text to verify that link.
It is all non-sequitur.
Yet, in the land of double speak all things are possible.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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This is the point.

1) Yes Man chose to die.

2) God designed man and God designed what the consequences of the fall would be which is in your view
man's mind, will and emotions are completely corrupted (each man is born this way) by the fall such that he can never respond positively to God's Good News unless regenerated first.

The point is God designed/created this inability fallen nature, it was not some unintended consequence. God created man remember.

I agree that the God knew and designed what the fallen nature would be, however, I do not agree that what you describe as man's fallen nature is correct according to scripture.

Your view makes God responsible for all of man's sin because of his fallen nature which God ultimately designed to be that way.

My view keeps intact man's accountability/responsibility for his sins because I do not believe God preprogrammed the fallen nature you describe.
Thanks for the reply.
As a parent, I have to discipline my children. If they choose to go against a rule that I have given, am I responsible for what happens? I'm not. Those who performed what was forbidden are the cause of the repercussions. It is that simple.
Adam acted on behalf of us all. His choice means we suffer the same repercussions as he did.
So no, God is not in any way responsible for the plight of mankind.

As far as what that fallen nature entails, you can believe what you want. Personally, I don't believe the scripture is wanting for its explanation.
 
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Even Adam and Eve’s acceptance of the garment provided to them by God is a proof that they did not resist by accepting the garment offered to them for free.
Why would they resist? They wanted what God offered. I believe they saw value in it, just as
a man who has had their heart changed finds value in accepting and returning God's love.


And that is the point of God changing our hearts in the first place.
 
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I think the maintaining the language of double-speak is a challenge and that is what the so called "doctrines of grace" require.
I have pointed out numerous of your contradictions and you hate me for it. LOL

But you think you are above all that? Hilarious.
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
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Thanks for the reply.
As a parent, I have to discipline my children. If they choose to go against a rule that I have given, am I responsible for what happens? I'm not. Those who performed what was forbidden are the cause of the repercussions. It is that simple.
Adam acted on behalf of us all. His choice means we suffer the same repercussions as he did.
So no, God is not in any way responsible for the plight of mankind.

As far as what that fallen nature entails, you can believe what you want. Personally, I don't believe the scripture is wanting for its explanation.
God created the nature of fallen man it is that simple.
You are conflating Adam's action with what the consequences would look like .. God is the designer of the man and He also designed what the fallen nature would be and He decided what the repercussions would be, Adam did not design the fallout.

If God is God and who created humans and their makeup (emotionally, psychologically/mind their will, their biology, their physiology) then He also determined what the effect of the Fall would be,

I cannot see any way around this, unless one puts it outside of God's dominion.:unsure:
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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Even Adam and Eve’s acceptance of the garment provided to them by God is a proof that they did not resist by accepting the garment offered to them for free.
Oh yes.
The Calvinites think that God had to put them both in a coma before He clothed them. Ridiculous.

It is obvious that there was a legit FREE WILL repentance of both Adam and Eve. They knew that they were wrong and ADMITTED it at their trial.

And it is also obvious that, despite their now sinful state, they were both CAPABLE and WILLING recipients of what God was offering:
The solution to sin and death.
 
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God created the nature of fallen man it is that simple.
You are conflating Adam's action with what the consequences would look like .. God is the designer of the man and He also designed what the fallen nature would be and He decided what the repercussions be not Adam.

If God is God and who created humans and the makeup (emotionally, psychologically/mind their will, their biology, their physiology) then He also determined what the effect of the Fall would be,

I cannot see any way around this, unless one puts it outside of God's dominion.:unsure:
Why is that a problem? God plainly states in places that He has blinded people, consigned all to disobedience.
Why can you not accept this? What follows after Him stating He has consigned all to disobedience?
Perhaps your focus should be there instead of fault finding God.


If He had not determined the effect of the fall, what need of Jesus Christ?

You do realize He was purposed from BEFORE the foundation of the world?

Who would you rather have deciding what should have happened next be???

Sometimes your objections seem so short sighted.

And man is still not absolved of his responsibility.
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
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Choose ye this day whom ye shall serve. As for my house we will serve the Lord.


Ultimately, we are called by God but eventually we must choose whom to serve.
No, and sorry to have to keep repeating myself on this, but you need to distinguish between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.
Your reference above, whether you realize it or not, is to the Old Covenant. The requirement as you've stated it,
is not present in the New Covenant. No requirement for man to achieve or comply with in order to satisfy it is included within it. It was all completed by God, not man.
 
Dec 30, 2024
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No, and sorry to have to keep repeating myself on this, but you need to distinguish between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.
Your reference above, whether you realize it or not, is to the Old Covenant. The requirement as you've stated it,
is not present in the New Covenant. No requirement for man to achieve or comply with in order to satisfy it is included within it. It was all completed by God, not man.
The Old Testament is a foreshadow of the New. Once you understand the same God is the same then as now you might become fertile soil to learn.
 
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Is this a general comment or is it in response to someone in particular?
I do object when anyone says nothing is required of us.

And I wanted to apologize to you. I know in the past I may have disagreed with things you'd said... though I can remember no specific incident, I do recall that I used to be adamant about the need of people to receive what God has given, while you may have taken the position that that was not necessary either. I do realize that when God gives, there are definitely times when we have absolutely zero choice in the matter. We simply receive. Like life. We had no say in our conception. Whether we believe the fullness of it is another matter.

Receiving is part and parcel of God opening our eyes and ears so we can see and hear.

I can take no credit for that. It IS all God.
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
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The Old Testament is a foreshadow of the New. Once you understand the same God is the same then as now you might become fertile soil to learn.
Are you disregarding that a New Covenant is stated in Scripture. For those to be saved, the Old Covenant has been done away with.
This can be a learning moment for you too.

[Heb 8:10-11 KJV]
10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
 
Dec 20, 2023
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Even Adam and Eve’s acceptance of the garment provided to them by God is a proof that they did not resist by accepting the garment offered to them for free.
We do not resist the sunshine that God provides to warm us during the day! Nor do we resist the nights of darkness without sunshine in which we rest for the coming day! These are both gifts of grace which are provided to everyone, spoken of as common grace. But, the special grace of God to a certain people is shown over and over in both old and new testaments of the Bible. You cannot deny this fact!
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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God created the nature of fallen man it is that simple.
You are conflating Adam's action with what the consequences would look like .. God is the designer of the man and He also designed what the fallen nature would be and He decided what the repercussions would be, Adam did not design the fallout.

If God is God and who created humans and their makeup (emotionally, psychologically/mind their will, their biology, their physiology) then He also determined what the effect of the Fall would be,

I cannot see any way around this, unless one puts it outside of God's dominion.:unsure:
Again, thanks for the response.
No I'm not. God decided. He always decides and then declares. What He didn't do was force Adam and Eve to sin.
You are the one who finds fault with God. You believe He is unjust because of what He decided, so He therefore couldn't have decided in such a way. It is your sentiment acting in opposition to what God has declared. And as I've said on numerous occasions, it is a failure on your part to have your understanding come into line with what scripture teaches.
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
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do object when anyone says nothing is required of us.
I do not believe that anything is required in order to satisfy the covenant. All requirements God has satisfied on our behalf, including faith. Regarding faith, we are definitely to have it, but it comes to us as a gift - a byproduct from salvation. All those saved, believe in Christ as Savior, without question.

[1Pe 1:21 KJV] 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

[Phl 1:29 KJV] 29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

[Jhn 6:29 KJV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

And I wanted to apologize to you. I know in the past I may have disagreed with things you'd said... though I can remember no specific incident, I do recall that I used to be adamant about the need of people to receive what God has given, while you may have taken the position that that was not necessary either. I do realize that when God gives, there are definitely times when we have absolutely zero choice in the matter. We simply receive. Like life. We had no say in our conception. Whether we believe the fullness of it is another matter.
Please do even think twice about that. Disagreements that are not personalized into insults, (which
you never do) I have no animosity whatsoever over - I think they can stir debate which is good. And if I've responded inappropriately to you in the past, please forgive me.
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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God is sovereignly making him screw up by allowing him to be himself...

He finds it irresistible.

grace and peace!
Not nearly as irresistible as the death grip you can't relinquish on your deafening silence re the last two chapters of Revelation. So...let me lay it out for you with a few key excerpts and brief commentary. Sit back and enjoy the lesson.

Rev 21:1
21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

NIV

This must occur after your literal 1,000-year earthly kingdom ; for this latter kingdom was part of the old order of things, i.e. "the first heaven and first earth". And this is really problematic for you Dispens since Jesus clearly said that his kingdom is NOT of this old order -- "not of this world" (Jn 18:36). Conversely, the new creation that ushers in the visible, eternal kingdom marks the end of the old order (Rev 21:4) and the beginning of the new (Rev 21:5).

Rev 21:4; 22:3
4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away"....Rev 22:3 No longer will there be any curse....
NIV


So...no more death, mourning, crying, pain or curse in the NEW ORDER, which means in the so-called earthly millennium, all these things would still exist, which further implies sin will still reign in this earthly millennium, since SIN is the cause of all these negative experiences. Sin is the cause of everything that is wrong in this world! (How ya doin' so far, Mr. Genez? Are ya hangin' in there, enjoying a real biblical lesson for a change? I hope so; I'm just getting warmed up.)

Rev 21:10-14
10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. 11 It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. 12 It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates.
On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. 13 There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west. 14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
NIV

I know, I know...You're going to try to tell me that the 12 "gates" and the 12 "apostles" still represent all Jewish messianic believers under the Old and New Covenant economies, right? What else can you say since given your false presuppositions as to the identity of the saints who will be dwelling in the new [world] order? But...stay tuned...

Rev 21:22-27
22 I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp.
24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.
NIV

Oh my...Kings and nations will bring their glory and honor into the City? OR...are you going to try to con us into believing that the "kings" and "nations" consist of the nation of Israel and the nation of Judah? Or that the "Lamb's book of life" includes only Jewish believers? If the latter, you had better feast your eyes on Php 4:3 in which Paul told Gentile believers in Philippi that all his fellow workers, most of whom were Gentiles, have their names written in that book! Or for that matter, see what Jesus told His church at Sardis about the "book of life" (Rev 3:5). But if you're still not convinced, then consider the original audience of this book. Besides, I know you're a staunch believer in understanding things in their context, right? :rolleyes:

Rev 1:20; 22:16a
20 The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels of the
seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches...Rev 22:16a "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches..."
NIV

Not very likely that those seven churches consisted only of Jewish believers. Don't you agree?

My next question to you is this: Do you have the courage, humility and honesty in you to admit you are wrong about who will occupy the restored earth?