Understanding God’s election

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
20,074
6,880
113
62
Election, biblically speaking, and as you have already been shown, is simply this:

Isa 42:1
Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Isa 42:2
He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
Isa 42:3
A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
Isa 42:4
He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

God's (mine) elect or chosen is Jesus Christ.

Mat 12:15
But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all;
Mat 12:16
And charged them that they should not make him known:
Mat 12:17
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
Mat 12:18
Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.
Mat 12:19
He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets.
Mat 12:20
A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.
Mat 12:21
And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.

Whether you will ever admit it or not, Jesus Christ is God's elect or chosen means of salvation, and those who were chosen IN HIM before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4) are those whom God, in his foreknowledge, knew would respond favorably to the gospel of Jesus Christ; thereby being found to be IN HIM.

It really is that simple, and I only bothered to mention it again for the potential benefits of any lurkers who might be following this thread so that they might not be led astray with any of the nonsense that certain people have been posting here.
I asked a question you have yet to answer. If God doesn't intervene supernaturally, would Isaac have been born?
That Jesus was elected as God's Servant to proclaim and provide salvation is true. But this is not the extent of election spoken of in the Bible. Neither does it negate what I have shared.
Did God not also elect Israel? And did He not also choose a people in Christ?

Please deal with the the first question. I'm interested in your answer, and anyone else's.
 
Nov 14, 2024
541
336
63
I asked a question you have yet to answer. If God doesn't intervene supernaturally, would Isaac have been born?
That Jesus was elected as God's Servant to proclaim and provide salvation is true. But this is not the extent of election spoken of in the Bible. Neither does it negate what I have shared.
Did God not also elect Israel? And did He not also choose a people in Christ?

Please deal with the the first question. I'm interested in your answer, and anyone else's.
I have to leave for work shortly, but I will try to make time to answer your question about Isaac tomorrow (Lord willing) because my answer will be quite thorough.
 
Nov 14, 2024
541
336
63
When Jesus told his Disciples he they did not choose him but he chose them for his Salvation and service how do Christians argue he stopped there? So that now we have to choose him.
Jesus did not tell them that he chose them for his salvation.

Jhn 6:66
From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
Jhn 6:67
Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
Jhn 6:68
Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
Jhn 6:69
And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
Jhn 6:70
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
Jhn 6:71
He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Jesus chose the twelve as apostles, and one of them, Judas Iscariot, was a devil, according to Jesus, so how then was Judas allegedly chosen for salvation? Furthermore, Jesus asked all of the twelve if they would go away and walk no more with him, so they all had that freewill choice or option at their disposal. What you and others here are doing is forcing scripture to make it say what you want it to say, and then you argue as if you have a legitimate foundation for your arguments when, in reality, you do not.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
20,074
6,880
113
62
I have to leave for work shortly, but I will try to make time to answer your question about Isaac tomorrow (Lord willing) because my answer will be quite thorough.
It's a simple yes or no question. Either he would have or he would not have. The reasoning is not important to me at this point.
In the future, when you quote my posts, will you please quote my entire post?
 
Dec 7, 2024
139
41
28
Jesus did not tell them that he chose them for his salvation.

Jhn 6:66
From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
Jhn 6:67
Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
Jhn 6:68
Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
Jhn 6:69
And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
Jhn 6:70
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
Jhn 6:71
He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Jesus chose the twelve as apostles, and one of them, Judas Iscariot, was a devil, according to Jesus, so how then was Judas allegedly chosen for salvation? Furthermore, Jesus asked all of the twelve if they would go away and walk no more with him, so they all had that freewill choice or option at their disposal. What you and others here are doing is forcing scripture to make it say what you want it to say, and then you argue as if you have a legitimate foundation for your arguments when, in reality, you do not.
The Disciples were not saved?
 
Nov 14, 2024
541
336
63
It's a simple yes or no question. Either he would have or he would not have. The reasoning is not important to me at this point.
In the future, when you quote my posts, will you please quote my entire post?
It is not a simple yes or no question because the correct answer to it will upset your whole applecart.

Lol. You asked me to answer the first question, and then you got upset when that is what I quoted. Suddenly, I am looking forward to going to work.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
20,074
6,880
113
62
It is not a simple yes or no question because the correct answer to it will upset your whole applecart.

Lol. You asked me to answer the first question, and then you got upset when that is what I quoted. Suddenly, I am looking forward to going to work.
So your answer seems to be yes. How hard was that?
 
Nov 14, 2024
541
336
63
The Disciples were not saved?
The ones who did not walk away of their own freewill choices were. Did you read Jesus' question? Here it is again:

Jhn 6:66
From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
Jhn 6:67
Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

What is it about WILL YE that you people do not understand? They could have WILLFULLY walked away. Deal with it, and adjust your beliefs accordingly. I have to leave for work now.
 
Dec 7, 2024
139
41
28
The ones who did not walk away of their own freewill choices were. Did you read Jesus' question? Here it is again:

Jhn 6:66
From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
Jhn 6:67
Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

What is it about WILL YE that you people do not understand? They could have WILLFULLY walked away. Deal with it, and adjust your beliefs accordingly. I have to leave for work now.
I did read. I asked you the question.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
3,035
408
83
I don't understand why you are getting so upset?

Your jumping up and down on one verse in Matthew.

Which has nothing to do with Romans 8:29, which is God saying that He previously foreknew the Jews.

I certainly don't define "foreknew" as a foreknowledge of the future.

I am not a 'free willer' and where do you get the idea that I was?

You may have thrown me in the Arminianism basket.

I disagree with them also.
Forgive me, sir, for mischaracterizing your theology. But if you're not an Arminian and you're not a believer in the Doctrines of Grace, then your soteriology must indeed be one strange hybrid. Having said that...congrats on at least getting the interpretation of Mat 7:23 and Rom 8:29, and by extension Rom 11:2, correct. However, Mat 7:23 and the two Roman passages I just cited are intimately connected because they all have in common this: They are not speaking to the omniscience of God or his Christ. However, the free-willers insist that Rom 8:29; 11:2, etc. are doing just that! They insist that God foreknew those who would one day come to faith in Him through Christ. And this accounts for the numerous irrelevant replies I received re the interpretation of Mat 7:23. People wanted desperately to apply the doctrine of the "kenosis" to a wrong period of time. They tried to make Mat 7:23 a parallel passage to Rom 8:29. Since they think the latter passage is making a statement about God's prescience, then they tried to make the Matthew passage also be about prescience, that is to say, the absence thereof!

But you and finally Genez (to my surprise) got it right! Mat 7:23 is indeed about the intimate, personal, covenant relationship that God and his Messiah never had with the non-elect. In fact, this must be the case since Jesus did know in Mat 7:23 that the people he will be addressing on "that day" had been "workers of iniquity" (or lawlessness). So, he certainly knew that much! But just as the Lord did not know those people ever, He did always know in eternity his elect (Rom 8:29; 11:2).
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
3,874
645
113
Election, biblically speaking, and as you have already been shown, is simply this:


Whether you will ever admit it or not, Jesus Christ is God's elect or chosen means of salvation, and those who were chosen IN HIM before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4) are those whom God, in his foreknowledge, knew would respond favorably to the gospel of Jesus Christ; thereby being found to be IN HIM.

It really is that simple, and I only bothered to mention it again for the potential benefits of any lurkers who might be following this thread so that they might not be led astray with any of the nonsense that certain people have been posting here.
It's simple alright, but election is not according to the way you state it. While Christ was elected Savior by the Father before the foundation of the world, the verses below clearly state who those are that Christ will save: they that God had chosen unto salvation from before the foundation of the world. Read the verses closely, it spelled out quite clearly in them beyond debate.

[1Pe 1:2,3,4 KJV]
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

[Mar 13:20 KJV] 20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

[Mat 25:34 KJV] 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

[Eph 1:4,5 KJV]
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
3,035
408
83
"How else could Jesus have seen the Father before he was even born?": By looking in the mirror. (JN 14:9 :^)[/QUOTE]

So, the Son and the Father are one and the same person Is that how you understand the triunity of God?
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
3,035
408
83
Jesus did not tell them that he chose them for his salvation.

Jhn 6:66
From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
Jhn 6:67
Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
Jhn 6:68
Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
Jhn 6:69
And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
Jhn 6:70
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
Jhn 6:71
He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Jesus chose the twelve as apostles, and one of them, Judas Iscariot, was a devil, according to Jesus, so how then was Judas allegedly chosen for salvation? Furthermore, Jesus asked all of the twelve if they would go away and walk no more with him, so they all had that freewill choice or option at their disposal. What you and others here are doing is forcing scripture to make it say what you want it to say, and then you argue as if you have a legitimate foundation for your arguments when, in reality, you do not.
Don't you know that Jesus purposely chose Judas the betrayer so that the scriptures about his betrayal could be fulfilled (Jn 17:12)? Judas was never chosen for salvation since he was the son of perdition. Conversely, the Father gave to His Son the other 11 and the Son faithfully kept them so that none of them were lost (Jn 17:12). Since none were lost, this means they were saved and chosen for this reason.
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
3,388
1,006
113
When Jesus told his Disciples he they did not choose him but he chose them for his Salvation and service how do Christians argue he stopped there? So that now we have to choose him.
Ephesians 2:11-12
Therefore remember that previously you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision”
by the so-called “Circumcision” which is performed in the flesh by human hands, remember that you
were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the people of Israel, and strangers to
the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

Is Paul stating that the Gentiles had no hope and without God in the world.

We know that Israel was formerly elect, chosen, in covenant with God, set apart.

The Gentiles were excluded, non elect, strangers to the covenants, the Gentiles were
not elected to anything but wrath.

Is it even possible to consider the idea that the Gentiles were elect from eternity?

Paul just told you that the Gentiles were not elect and had no hope.

What is going on here?

I am on a thread where nobody will read the text.
 
Dec 11, 2024
37
7
8
2 Peter 2:1 ESV / 71 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.
1 John 4:1 ESV / 76 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2 Peter 2:1 ESV / 71 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.
2 Corinthians 11:4 ESV / 55 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough.
1 Peter 2:1 ESV / 10 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
So put away all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander.
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
3,388
1,006
113
"How else could Jesus have seen the Father before he was even born?": By looking in the mirror. (JN 14:9 :^)
So, the Son and the Father are one and the same person Is that how you understand the triunity of God?[/QUOTE]

Mark 12:29
“And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
3,388
1,006
113
It's simple alright, but election is not according to the way you state it. While Christ was elected Savior by the Father before the foundation of the world, the verses below clearly state who those are that Christ will save: they that God had chosen unto salvation from before the foundation of the world. Read the verses closely, it spelled out quite clearly in them beyond debate.

[1Pe 1:2,3,4 KJV]
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

[Mar 13:20 KJV] 20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

[Mat 25:34 KJV] 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Try reading those verses again Rogerg.

[Eph 1:4,5 KJV]
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.

This is the predestined goal.

He has chosen us in Christ to be holy and blameless!

Not God has chosen us way before His crucifixion to be saved.

The Gentiles were grafted into Christ, the Gentiles were foreigners, strangers, without God.

You were "ADOPTED" which means you were not the covenant people, not of the cultivated olive tree.

The Christ was predestined and the aliens, the Gentiles were grafted in, the Gentiles were ADOPTED!!!

The way you read the scripture baffles me.

[Mar 13:20 KJV] 20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved...

'No flesh would be saved' tell me you can see this?

Do you see what that verse (Mark 13:20) is saying?

Please tell me that you understand that verse.

If God allowed those days to continue "No flesh would be saved".

Unfortunately the verse (Mark 13:20) is a proof text that states that God never elected anyone to
salvation from eternity.

If God elected them to salvation, then no amount of days would make any difference.

I am struggling to fathom how you read, "No flesh would be saved".

[Mat 25:34 KJV] 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

The kingdom was prepared from the foundation of the world.

For whom was the kingdom prepared?

Jesus states the following.

Matthew 22:1-10
Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying, “The kingdom of heaven is like a king who held a wedding feast for his son. And he sent his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come. Again he sent other slaves, saying, ‘Tell those who have been invited, “Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and my fattened cattle are all butchered and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast!”’ But they paid no attention and went their separate ways, one to his own farm, another to his business, and the rest seized his slaves and treated them abusively, and then killed them. Now the king was angry, and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire. Then he said to his slaves, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. So go to the main roads, and invite whomever you find there to the wedding feast.’ Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all whom they found, both bad and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests.

The paragraph above is screaming at you that those that were not invited (not chosen, not elect) were grafted in.

Then the invitation went to the uninvited, non elect, whomever, the Gentiles!
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
3,412
533
113
Just to be crystal clear on what you're saying: When Jesus said "I never knew you...", he was really saying *I* never had a personal, intimate, covenant relationship with you which is why "they never were saved" correct? In your mind the passage has nothing to do with Jesus' prescience (omniscience), right?

What's your problem with that?
What is your actual problem?

Jesus was, among other things, also a prophet in function!
A man of God can be a prophet!