Understanding God’s election

[Cameron143]

It is taught that in our sinful natural state we cannot understand the things of God.

We can't understand spiritually, but people can still understand things. I can teach a 6 year old the gospel and they can understand the concepts of sin and salvation and Jesus' role in redemption.

There has to be some understanding about a particular thing in order to think it is foolish and reject it.

 

[Inquisitor]

Quit avoiding the question. I'm not asking about Israel. I'm asking if you are ok that God was saving some in Israel to the exclusion of those in other nations? Yes or no?

Still not sure why you are asking me about God's plan for humanity.

Does the common clay comment on how God deals with the honorable clay?

That is not my business Cameron.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The Law was given for the saved to live by.
It was also given to teach all that they are sinners by defining sins.
That is why the Law ultimately demanded atonement.

The Law was not given to get men saved by following it.

You were either a good believer (followed the Law). Blessed Jews in the Land.
Or, you were a bad believer (rebelled against the Law). Disciplined and judged by disasters of war, famine, etc.

The unbelievers in the land who did follow, followed the Law by means of peer pressure and conformity. (like many Catholics do)

“The Law was given for the saved to live by.”

“Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers ( thou shalt not kill ) of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for whoremongers,( thou shalt not commit adultery ) for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, ( thou shalt not lie ) for perjured persons, ( thou shalt not bear false witness against another ) and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to our trust.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭1:9-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Cameron143]

Still not sure why you are asking me about God's plan for humanity.

Does the common clay comment on how God deals with the honorable clay?

That is not my business Cameron.

Everything in the Bible is in some way related to Christ and redemption. No matter what I ask from the Bible it is related to God's plan for humanity.

Grace and peace.

 

[Genez]

When I first read your post , my knee jerk reaction was, " His diety cannot interfere with His true humanity or vice versa." .....But that was only during His physical life on earth.

Very plausible in my book. One I think I could hang my hat on.

As he had demonstrated in the Incarnation. He can enter into that state at will!

 

[Cranberry]

We can't understand spiritually, but people can still understand things. I can teach a 6 year old the gospel and they can understand the concepts of sin and salvation and Jesus' role in redemption.

There has to be some understanding about a particular thing in order to think it is foolish and reject it.

The last sentence is a curious observation. I'll leave you to come to the realization as to what you said.

 

[Magenta]

We can't understand spiritually, but people can still understand things. I can teach a 6 year old the gospel and they can understand the concepts of sin and salvation and Jesus' role in redemption.

There has to be some understanding about a particular thing in order to think it is foolish and reject it.

Or or else people are simply blinded by the god of this world as Scripture does very plainly say... so that they cannot see the light of the Gospel that displays the glory of Christ Who is the image of God... or God has closed their eyes as some Scriptures very plainly say ... though these types of verses keep getting ignored and denied when we know that the whole world is under the power of the evil one ... they don't like to acknowledge such things. Also thank you for clarifying your point earlier ... Scripture does say that when anyone hears the message of the Kingdom but does not understand it the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart ... so clearly it is a heart issue but this gets denied also. They keep insisting that that stony heart is good enough to be fruitful. That's why they have to keep denying what is said of the natural man because a bad tree cannot produce good fruit ... They have to keep making the natural man not such a bad guy after all despite everything the Bible has to say about him. Including in the very words of Jesus Christ Himself, that only God is good.

 

[Genez]

“The Law was given for the saved to live by.”

“Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers ( thou shalt not kill ) of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for whoremongers,( thou shalt not commit adultery ) for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, ( thou shalt not lie ) for perjured persons, ( thou shalt not bear false witness against another ) and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to our trust.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭1:9-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

To make your point...
You are resorting to the Church age as your example.

In contrast, I was pointing to when the Law was given.
Given to Israel.
The Law for Israel was given to live by.

After the Church age began, living under the Law became an obsolete dispensation to the Christian.

 

[HeIsHere]

We can't understand spiritually, but people can still understand things. I can teach a 6 year old the gospel and they can understand the concepts of sin and salvation and Jesus' role in redemption.

There has to be some understanding about a particular thing in order to think it is foolish and reject it.

Yes and they can only reject it unless god regenerates first, thereby leaving some in their sins while others are rescued from their sins and this is completely arbitrary act of God.

“the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing,” assumes that man’s “unregenerate” nature determined his assessment in such a way that he could not have deemed it otherwise.... this is eisegesis of the text.

Paul once again is contrasting those who rely on human wisdom instead of the spiritual truths brought by the inspired apostles will see the cross as foolish and perish as a result.


Pretty sure Paul does not contradict himself.
“…from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness…” (2 Tim. 3:15-16)

You won't be convinced your loss.

 

[Cameron143]

Or or else people are simply blinded by the god of this world as Scripture does very plainly say... so that they cannot see the light of the Gospel that displays the glory of Christ Who is the image of God... or God has closed their eyes as some Scriptures very plainly say ... though these types of verses keep getting ignored and denied when we know that the whole world is under the power of the evil one ... they don't like to acknowledge such things. Also thank you for clarifying your point earlier ... Scripture does say that when anyone hears the message of the Kingdom but does not understand it the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart ... so clearly it is a heart issue but this gets denied also. They keep insisting that that stony heart is good enough to be fruitful. That's why they have to keep denying what is said of the natural man because a bad tree cannot produce good fruit ... They have to keep making the natural man not such a bad guy after all despite everything the Bible has to say about him. Including in the very words of Jesus Christ Himself, that only God is good.

The light of the gospel is a curious phrase. Light is generally thought of as understanding spiritually.
My only point earlier is that man still has natural capacities, even though they have been corrupted. Thus, the have natural understanding of things...even spiritual things.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Yes I do understand that's what people say... they paint the natural man as such a lovely guy despite all the Bible has to say about him, and I'm supposed to think that anytime I reference those verses I'm taking them out of context And they don't really say after all what they actually do say. I don't study those other people too like Calvin but I get accused of being one of them.

lots of accusations here get flung in multiple directions. Like a zoo .

 

[Magenta]

lots of accusations here get flung in multiple directions. Like a zoo .

What what would we do without a sense of humor to balance out how truly sad it all can be?

 

[JonathanBentley]

It's not the people who are elect it's the plan. Read it again God has predestined that those who get saved will be conformed to the image of His Son. When the elect are mentioned it's a group that you join of free will that is Holy. Elect pretty much means you're set aside. But the plan of salvation and transformation were chosen by God the Father. I thank God for free will salvation because they would any God put people in hell that he never offered salvation if he let some be saved from sin. Seek out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

What what would we do without a sense of humor to balance out how truly sad it all can be?

Indeed sister , we could fling them back but then we’re missing a blessing when we let an insult or accusation slide on by like the good lord taught us to do. “No weapon formed” as a wise man said by the spirit

 

[Cameron143]

Yes and they can only reject it unless god regenerates first, thereby leaving some in their sins while others are rescued from their sins and this is completely arbitrary act of God.

“the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing,” assumes that man’s “unregenerate” nature determined his assessment in such a way that he could not have deemed it otherwise.... this is eisegesis of the text.

Paul once again is contrasting those who rely on human wisdom instead of the spiritual truths brought by the inspired apostles will see the cross as foolish and perish as a result.


Pretty sure Paul does not contradict himself.
“…from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness…” (2 Tim. 3:15-16)

You won't be convinced your loss.

If the preaching of the gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing, what happens that makes them believe it so it is no longer foolishness?

 

[HeIsHere]

How to avoid eisegesis and Calvinism.

Calvinistic Meaning: “The reprobate, who has not be irresistibly regenerated by the Spirit, cannot accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for God has unchangeably decreed that revealed truth (apostles teaching, scripture) will only be seen as foolish to him.” (God is ultimately responsible for man’s unbelief)

Non-Calvinistic Meaning: “The man who freely chooses not to accept the things that come from the Spirit of God (apostles teaching, scripture, etc), but freely deem them as foolish, cannot understand spiritual truth, because those are the means of spiritual revelation.” (Man is responsible for his own unbelief)

(Wayne Jackson)

 

[Cameron143]

It's not the people who are elect it's the plan. Read it again God has predestined that those who get saved will be conformed to the image of His Son. When the elect are mentioned it's a group that you join of free will that is Holy. Elect pretty much means you're set aside. But the plan of salvation and transformation were chosen by God the Father. I thank God for free will salvation because they would any God put people in hell that he never offered salvation if he let some be saved from sin. Seek out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Then why in Romans 9 does God use the example of 2 people...Jacob and Esau?

 

[cv5]

What what would we do without a sense of humor to balance out how truly sad it all can be?

I cant speak for anybody else, but I for one am absolutely thrilled.
Smells and tastes like victory to me. Total victory. Delicious.

 

[HeIsHere]

If the preaching of the gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing, what happens that makes them believe it so it is no longer foolishness?

My answer is, you refuse to believe Paul, Jesus etc., you will not believe me .........not that I am believing that you do not already have your own opinion on the question so stay where you are, you seem content in your folly, not much more I can do about except pray I guess.

 

[Rufus]

That would possibly be true except for Romans 8:29. It doesn't say WHAT God foreknew, but WHO God foreknew.

A mere pesky, insignificant detail....