Understanding Church History

[Lanolin]

Victor,

I mentioned to you that I would look through Needham’s third volume to see if there were any references to flagellants. I bought the book but I didn’t see anything in it related to them.

You probably know there’s a lot of YouTube videos, etcetera, about them. I also gave you what I found from Kenneth Scott Latourette’s books.

By the way I know a younger Roman Catholic guy and he told me that he was beating himself that way. I thought he was joking at first. Apparently he was not. That’s really the only exposure I have had to this practice.

Regards.

Apparently flagelleation a popular practice in the Phillipines, a predominantly Roman Catholic nation. They like to stage mock crucifixtions. We could ask any Filipino members on here about it.

In the novel Da Vinci code, it was a practice of the Opus Dei. The real Opus Dei deny it but I dont really know where Dan Brown gets his ideas from, which he kinda presents as facts. Makes for dramatic paperback novel though.

 

[Blik]

I neither said nor implied that "one scripture tells us that another scripture is wrong". Rather, the Scripture itself declares that the old covenant is obsolete. The two words simply don't mean the same thing.

If it is the entire old covenant that is obsolete then God is not an eternal God, but a God that changes. It throws all of the OT in question, and even Christ for scripture tells us that Christ did not change things but fulfilled what was already there.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

If it is the entire old covenant that is obsolete then God is not an eternal God, but a God that changes. It throws all of the OT in question, and even Christ for scripture tells us that Christ did not change things but fulfilled what was already there.

God doesn’t change but the manner that he deals with mankind changes. The pure fact of the Incarnation and Pentecost, where Jesus Dwells in mankind through the mediation of Holy Spirit, proves this.

Through your logic, if anything changed, God changed and we know that Mosaic Law requirements as a whole don’t define the expectation of believers.

 

[Dino246]

If it is the entire old covenant that is obsolete then God is not an eternal God, but a God that changes. It throws all of the OT in question, and even Christ for scripture tells us that Christ did not change things but fulfilled what was already there.

There was a time before Adam sinned, and a time after he sinned. Did God Himself change?
No. "The Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows" (James 1:17).

There was a time before the flood, and a time after the flood when He gave the covenant of the rainbow. Did God Himself change?
No. "God, who is enthroned from of old, who does not change" (Psalm 55:19).

There was a time before God gave the covenant at Sinai, and a time after? Did God Himself change?
No. "I the Lord do not change" (Malachi 3:6).

There was a time before Jesus died on the cross, and a time after, when the covenant in Christ's blood had been initiated. Did God Himself change?
No. "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever" (Hebrews 13:8).

Nothing that I have presented suggests that God is not eternal. If God Himself changed at the end of the old covenant, then He also changed at the beginning of the old covenant. Of course, that didn't happen.

 

[Nehemiah6]

If it is the entire old covenant that is obsolete then God is not an eternal God, but a God that changes. It throws all of the OT in question, and even Christ for scripture tells us that Christ did not change things but fulfilled what was already there.

You are operating with tunnel vision. So what you really need to do is focus on the New Testament. And is is GOD who gave us the New Testament (in case you were wondering).

2 CORINTHIANS 3
1 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?
2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the New Testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the Old Testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

The Danger of Jewish Roots Movements

By Daniel Juster

Yes, you read that right. The title of this article is surprising. Isn't the Messianic Jewish Movement a Jewish roots movement? Did I not write a book entitled Jewish Roots? Yes. Then why the title? It is because some Jewish roots movements are spreading mistaken theology. These teachings are creating unnecessary dissension among believers in Yeshua. Many church leaders have distanced themselves from Messianic Judaism because they think we too ascribe to these misguided teachings. Just recently we heard of a pastor of a large church in Midwest USA who wants no connection with Messianic Jews due to offense from wrong Jewish roots teachings which influenced members of his church. However, there are also right Jewish roots teachers and teachings. So let's begin with a summary of the right teaching.

Correct Jewish Roots Teaching

Over a hundred years ago, a new stream of theology sought to understand the New Testament from its original Jewish context. This stream was contrary to the majority of liberal university New Testament scholarship which saw the New Testament as a Greek cultural development that countered the Hebrew Bible. After the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered, understanding the New Testament through a first century Jewish context increased greatly. Saunders' groundbreaking book Paul and Palestinian Judaism started the movement called the New Perspective on Paul. The quest for an accurate understanding through the Jewish context is common today. A small sample of this fine scholarship includes Davies' "Paul and Rabbinic Judaism" and Skarsaune's "In the Shadow of the Temple", along with commentaries by Craig Keener and Darrel Bock.

Many in this scholarly Jewish roots movement have embraced the destiny of Israel as part of their theology. They connect to the Jewish people and the meaning of the Biblical feasts without suggesting any legalistic requirements. They recognize that Messianic Jews are still called to live and identify with their people, and also that Gentiles who believe in the Messiah are not responsible to take up patterns of Jewish life. They clearly understand the apostolic directives of the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15, as well as Paul's warnings in Galatians. These Jewish roots teachers, books, and conferences are enormously helpful to us.

Mistaken Jewish Roots Teachings

Almost 50 years ago, the greatest Protestant theologian of the 20th century, Karl Barth, decried the fact that American theology had declined into paperback theology. What would he say today in regard to internet theology! Every modern aberrant theology gains a significant following through the internet. This is also the case with wrong Jewish roots movements. Here are a few of the false teachings that, we should note, are rejected by the mainstream of the Messianic Jewish movement. Some movements combine several of these errors.

Error #1: that Gentile Christians are to keep the whole Law just like Jews

I have called this error "One Law" - from the verse in Numbers 15:16 often used to justify it. I wrote a paper specifically to address this. Incredibly, these folks try to explain away Acts 15 and Galatians. They claim that all are called to keep the Law in the same way. Of course this is not only contrary to many clear New Covenant texts but also ends in partial replacement theology since there is no longer any distinctive calling for Jews. Some make an exception for circumcision for Gentiles, while others amazingly find a way to even call for this. Galatians 5 is very clear that Gentiles are not called to covenant circumcision or they would be responsible for keeping the whole Torah. Paul is virtually shouting to them, "Don't do it!" These same folks teach that Christians must strictly observe all the Biblical feast days and the weekly Sabbath. They have not been able to agree on a calendar system to assure that exactly the right day on the annual calendar can be known for each feast. In both Judaism and Christianity there has been much dispute on this.

Error #2: that true Christians are the lost tribes of Israel

In an amazing twist of the Bible it is claimed that true Christians are physical descendants of the lost tribes who were scattered, this being the purported reason they became Christians. It is their answer to the puzzle of what happened to the lost tribes of Israel. As such they become "One Law" as well. All of the texts stating salvation has now come to the nations, and that the One New Man is made up of Jew and Gentile (Ephesians 2), are explained away. They expect to live in an expanded Israel - if not now, at least after the second coming. Again, this is partial replacement theology. The movement is divided on the issue of circumcision.

Error #3: that Christian holy day celebrations are pagan abominations

We should note that three of the main Christian Feasts are really a Christianization of Jewish Feasts: Passover/Pesach is celebrated as the death of Yeshua on Good Friday, Early First Fruits/Bikurim as the Resurrection, and Shavuot/Weeks as Pentecost. Yes, the Church should connect these Feasts much more clearly to their Jewish context. But the assertion that the Christian versions are pagan is painfully wrong. They celebrate the events of prophetic fulfillment in Yeshua's life and ministry, and the day when the Holy Spirit was poured out on the gathered disciples. The days chosen for the actual celebrations, although different, can be argued to be as accurate in their way as the rabbinic dating for the feasts. These feasts celebrate Biblical events, and we should note that the meaning is according to what Christians have celebrated. The origin of Christmas as the date of Yeshua's birth is questionable at best, though argued as correct by Messianic Jewish scholar Dr. John Fischer. However, for pious Christians, it is the celebration of the incarnation, not the worship of the Sun. So also worship on Sunday is about the resurrection of Yeshua on the first day of the week, not Sun worship. The origin of the choice of Sunday worship can be argued, but it has been claimed as the day of resurrection for at least 1800 years.

Many do not know the rich experiences with God that Christians experience in their heritage, both with regard to the resurrection and the glory of the celebration of the incarnation of Yeshua during advent season. The hymns, caroling and more are a wonderful conveying of Biblical truth. Criticism brings unnecessary pain and disrespect.\

Conclusion

These erroneous emphases have unnecessarily brought division, confusion and pain: to their adherents, to Christians, to Messianic Jews and to Jews. I trust that you, dear readers, will have the discernment to avoid mistaken Jewish roots teachings, and to be enriched by those that are right on.
.

My note: I don't think I agree with Daniel on all points, but the article is interesting. He is a Messianic Jew.

 

[Blik]

You are operating with tunnel vision. So what you really need to do is focus on the New Testament. And is is GOD who gave us the New Testament (in case you were wondering).

2 CORINTHIANS 3
1 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?
2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the New Testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the Old Testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

By your focus you are missing all of the fundamentals of God. God is eternal, and scripture tells us so. By looking at scripture superficially, you can find change. New Covenant/Old covenant. Christ's sacrifice for us/sacrifice of cattle. But we are told the God (God is triune) does not change. We are also told that all scripture is for our instruction. To be instructed we are to search for truth. Then it is up to us to search for the eternal truths that is in scripture, not the changes.

 

[Blik]

The Danger of Jewish Roots Movements

By Daniel Juster

Yes, you read that right. The title of this article is surprising. Isn't the Messianic Jewish Movement a Jewish roots movement? Did I not write a book entitled Jewish Roots? Yes. Then why the title? It is because some Jewish roots movements are spreading mistaken theology. These teachings are creating unnecessary dissension among believers in Yeshua. Many church leaders have distanced themselves from Messianic Judaism because they think we too ascribe to these misguided teachings. Just recently we heard of a pastor of a large church in Midwest USA who wants no connection with Messianic Jews due to offense from wrong Jewish roots teachings which influenced members of his church. However, there are also right Jewish roots teachers and teachings. So let's begin with a summary of the right teaching.

Correct Jewish Roots Teaching

Over a hundred years ago, a new stream of theology sought to understand the New Testament from its original Jewish context. This stream was contrary to the majority of liberal university New Testament scholarship which saw the New Testament as a Greek cultural development that countered the Hebrew Bible. After the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered, understanding the New Testament through a first century Jewish context increased greatly. Saunders' groundbreaking book Paul and Palestinian Judaism started the movement called the New Perspective on Paul. The quest for an accurate understanding through the Jewish context is common today. A small sample of this fine scholarship includes Davies' "Paul and Rabbinic Judaism" and Skarsaune's "In the Shadow of the Temple", along with commentaries by Craig Keener and Darrel Bock.

Many in this scholarly Jewish roots movement have embraced the destiny of Israel as part of their theology. They connect to the Jewish people and the meaning of the Biblical feasts without suggesting any legalistic requirements. They recognize that Messianic Jews are still called to live and identify with their people, and also that Gentiles who believe in the Messiah are not responsible to take up patterns of Jewish life. They clearly understand the apostolic directives of the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15, as well as Paul's warnings in Galatians. These Jewish roots teachers, books, and conferences are enormously helpful to us.

Mistaken Jewish Roots Teachings

Almost 50 years ago, the greatest Protestant theologian of the 20th century, Karl Barth, decried the fact that American theology had declined into paperback theology. What would he say today in regard to internet theology! Every modern aberrant theology gains a significant following through the internet. This is also the case with wrong Jewish roots movements. Here are a few of the false teachings that, we should note, are rejected by the mainstream of the Messianic Jewish movement. Some movements combine several of these errors.

Error #1: that Gentile Christians are to keep the whole Law just like Jews

I have called this error "One Law" - from the verse in Numbers 15:16 often used to justify it. I wrote a paper specifically to address this. Incredibly, these folks try to explain away Acts 15 and Galatians. They claim that all are called to keep the Law in the same way. Of course this is not only contrary to many clear New Covenant texts but also ends in partial replacement theology since there is no longer any distinctive calling for Jews. Some make an exception for circumcision for Gentiles, while others amazingly find a way to even call for this. Galatians 5 is very clear that Gentiles are not called to covenant circumcision or they would be responsible for keeping the whole Torah. Paul is virtually shouting to them, "Don't do it!" These same folks teach that Christians must strictly observe all the Biblical feast days and the weekly Sabbath. They have not been able to agree on a calendar system to assure that exactly the right day on the annual calendar can be known for each feast. In both Judaism and Christianity there has been much dispute on this.

Error #2: that true Christians are the lost tribes of Israel

In an amazing twist of the Bible it is claimed that true Christians are physical descendants of the lost tribes who were scattered, this being the purported reason they became Christians. It is their answer to the puzzle of what happened to the lost tribes of Israel. As such they become "One Law" as well. All of the texts stating salvation has now come to the nations, and that the One New Man is made up of Jew and Gentile (Ephesians 2), are explained away. They expect to live in an expanded Israel - if not now, at least after the second coming. Again, this is partial replacement theology. The movement is divided on the issue of circumcision.

Error #3: that Christian holy day celebrations are pagan abominations

We should note that three of the main Christian Feasts are really a Christianization of Jewish Feasts: Passover/Pesach is celebrated as the death of Yeshua on Good Friday, Early First Fruits/Bikurim as the Resurrection, and Shavuot/Weeks as Pentecost. Yes, the Church should connect these Feasts much more clearly to their Jewish context. But the assertion that the Christian versions are pagan is painfully wrong. They celebrate the events of prophetic fulfillment in Yeshua's life and ministry, and the day when the Holy Spirit was poured out on the gathered disciples. The days chosen for the actual celebrations, although different, can be argued to be as accurate in their way as the rabbinic dating for the feasts. These feasts celebrate Biblical events, and we should note that the meaning is according to what Christians have celebrated. The origin of Christmas as the date of Yeshua's birth is questionable at best, though argued as correct by Messianic Jewish scholar Dr. John Fischer. However, for pious Christians, it is the celebration of the incarnation, not the worship of the Sun. So also worship on Sunday is about the resurrection of Yeshua on the first day of the week, not Sun worship. The origin of the choice of Sunday worship can be argued, but it has been claimed as the day of resurrection for at least 1800 years.

Many do not know the rich experiences with God that Christians experience in their heritage, both with regard to the resurrection and the glory of the celebration of the incarnation of Yeshua during advent season. The hymns, caroling and more are a wonderful conveying of Biblical truth. Criticism brings unnecessary pain and disrespect.\

Conclusion

These erroneous emphases have unnecessarily brought division, confusion and pain: to their adherents, to Christians, to Messianic Jews and to Jews. I trust that you, dear readers, will have the discernment to avoid mistaken Jewish roots teachings, and to be enriched by those that are right on.
.

My note: I don't think I agree with Daniel on all points, but the article is interesting. He is a Messianic Jew.

When the dead sea scrolls were finally put together enough to be studied it opened up understanding of the people told of in the OT. It was as if God had hidden this information until it was needed. Thousands of years separate us from those people, we would have a hard time communicating with them and don't understand them. Those scrolls were discovered in 1949, and they changed lots of things. One was by scholars of ancient Hebrew history, and the OT. There were men who started churches that taught scripture giving the OT as much study as the NT, saying the NT was the fulfillment of the OT.

A few of these churches used the OT in a way that was not scriptural.

The established churches reacted as the Jews reacted to Christ. It was a change for them and they felt threatened, sure that they were absolutely right and any change at all was a bad thing.

According to scripture the serious study of the OT is right, our God is the same God with the same characteristics in both new and told testament. According to scripture we are to know both are right and of God. 2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

 

[Lafftur]

With Satan working as fast as he can to [effectively] "change" all of history in order to cover up the real-and-true [knowledge of] history, it is difficult to know what "history" to believe. After looking at all of the different versions available concerning any particular era/event/topic of historical significance, it sometimes takes very careful discernment to determine what is true and what is not...

Anyone who is willing to believe that wikipedia is an accurate historical source is already severely deceived. And, there are many today who will actually be appalled that I dared to say this.

We must be especially careful when reading "modern" accounts of history. The more modern they are, the more likely they will contain error.

I enjoyed reading your post. It made me think about Moses on the Mt. Sinai and God telling him all about creation.....Moses wasn't born yet, but he wrote what God had shown and told him.....is was NOT wikipedia. lol! I also do not believe all of wikipedia - it is full of bias views and opinions yet, some true facts.

I do enjoy when God opens our understanding and reveals truth to us. Why do we believe the story of creation in Genesis......we weren't there, neither was Moses....yet, God spoke and we believed what God said and Moses wrote it down. Amen.

It comes down to when The Word of God is spoken, The Holy Spirit tells us it is TRUE. It is NOT understanding that comes from our minds (human reasoning), it is understanding that is given to us so that we might know and believe.

Thank you for your post!

 

[GaryA]

Thank you for your post!

Thank you for yours!

 

[tourist]

So, Adventism has no issues? I can tell you for sure that they do...for example, they believe that Jesus did not enter the Holy of Holies until 1844, and SDA organizations perform elective abortions in their health care facilities.

It is easy to vilify everyone except your sect and proclaim yourself to be the true faith.

What sect or denomination are you affiliated with?

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

What sect or denomination are you affiliated with?

I am not part of a sect or denomination. I attend a church that affiliated with Evangelical Free Church of America. EFCA is a solid organization.

The particular church I attend is mildly dispensational (I am not) and accepting of individuals who hold core Christian beliefs. I don't think they define themselves as either a sect or a denomination, although they are not anti-denominational.

What sect or denomination are you associated with?

 

[Dino246]

I am not part of a sect or denomination. I attend a church that affiliated with Evangelical Free Church of America. EFCA is a solid organization.

How would this not be a denomination?

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

How would this not be a denomination?

EFCA respects differences of opinions on non-essentials. I think most denominations are more firmly governed by their denominational heads. EFCA doesn't get involved with local church discipline unless they are serious violations of ethics or doctrine.

If you want to call it a denomination, it is fine with me. I am not a non-denominational sort of guy. Some non-denominational organizations are unorthodox in some manner and don't want to reveal their weird doctrines, so they simply call themselves non-denominational. I've also noticed that they tend to be self-righteous and confrontational, and not a few are Pentecostals/charismatics. None of which I would want to be associated with.

 

[Dino246]

EFCA respects differences of opinions on non-essentials. I think most denominations are more firmly governed by their denominational heads. EFCA doesn't get involved with local church discipline unless they are serious violations of ethics or doctrine.

If you want to call it a denomination, it is fine with me. I am not a non-denominational sort of guy. Some non-denominational organizations are unorthodox in some manner and don't want to reveal their weird doctrines, so they simply call themselves non-denominational. I've also noticed that they tend to be self-righteous and confrontational, and not a few are Pentecostals/charismatics. None of which I would want to be associated with.

Fair enough. Personally, I don't hold to any denomination, but I attend a Pentecostal church. I think that was the gist of the question.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Fair enough. Personally, I don't hold to any denomination, but I attend a Pentecostal church. I think that was the gist of the question.

Ah ok. I don't care if someone is denominational or not. I wouldn't attend a church without a clearly defined statement of beliefs that I agreed with, though. Within EFCA I know that no member church is going to be teaching against the Trinity, the deity of Christ, substitutionary atonement, virgin birth, inspiration and authority of Scripture, original sin, bodily resurrection, etcetera, so I am ok with visiting a church from the association.

 

[MattforJesus]

Why worry about Church history for we have the word of God, and if they want to believe a certain scripture of the Bible a certain away many are going to ignore Church history.

Denominations will always trump Church history, and the vast majority will cling to that.

Also it does not matter whether right or wrong some people will say how do we know they were right.

Like they say that the early Church members did not believe in a trinity, and baptism in Jesus' name, but many people do not care, and they will say how can it be proven, and will not believe it.

While the 7 Churches Jesus addressed in Revelation may have been actual Churches, I believe it is how Church history will go from the start until the nations come together and say Peace and safety, as being what was popular among the people of Church history, and if false in the time they had a big influence God always has people in the truth.

Ephesus

Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Love of people is the fulfilling of the law.

Not too much of a problem although it is a problem, they were doing good except they left their first love, which might mean they were not caring about people according to their needs like the early Church that did as they helped the poor saints, or thinking they were better than the other saints, but I believe it has to do with the love of people, for Jesus commended them they were doing right except this error.

And then it is speaking of worse conditions in the 3 next Churches, and it appears as if it points out the Roman Catholic Church when they had a big influence, for it is obvious when they embraced the Bible, and Christianity, that they did not get rid of their pagan, occult ways, and it became their foundation for the interpreting of scriptures, and the pagan, and the occult is of the devil.

Which God warns us of the new age movement that shall occur in the latter days, and their false interpretation of the Bible, which they give heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils, which will lead the world to the New Age Christ, and watch the Pope and the Vatican will go along with it for they can sway in interpretation for their foundation is pagan, and of the occult.

Sardis

Rev 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Then they seem to depart from that deception of the last 3 Churches, but was still not perfect yet which could be the Protestant movement that became a big influence, although not entirely had it sorted out yet, and back to all truth.

Philadelphia

Rev 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
Rev 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Jesus did not have a bad thing to say about these people which all these Churches have to be a big influence at the time, which could be the Protestant movement, and many others, finally got back to the truth, and Jesus said He will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say they are Jews come to worship before their feet.

Which when the Bible says Jews I do not believe it means according to the flesh, but a Gentile that is claiming Christ.

For when a Gentile is saved they become a Jew inward, and part of the commonwealth of Israel, but these people are claiming to be saved which they would be a Jew inward, but they are not, for God looks at a Gentile that is saved as a Jew, so if they claim to be saved but are not then God does not look at them as a Jew, although they claim to be saved.

For these major influences sure were not of Jews according to the flesh like the Roman Catholic Church, and Israel is blinded in part until salvation is no longer available to the Gentiles, and they were scattered in to the nations at one time, and could not be a big influence anyway as these Churches.

God always has people in the truth no matter the time period, but it appears at the 6th Church it is straightened out and back to total truth as popular influence, or big influence upon many people.

This is an indication that the 7 Churches are how the Church history will go with big influence upon people in their time period.

For Jesus said because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Which this Church has to be today and for some time now, for there can only be one temptation that can come upon the whole earth, affect all people at the same time, and that is when the nations come together and say Peace and safety, which Paul said the saints will not be deceived by that for they know it is not of God, and it is not the operation of God for the world for they are beginning to rebel against God until they cut Him out of the picture in their kingdom that will happen in the future.

Continued,

 

[MattforJesus]

Continued,

Joe 3:1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
Joe 3:2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

Joe 3:4 Yea, and what have ye to do with me, O Tyre, and Zidon, and all the coasts of Palestine? will ye render me a recompence? and if ye recompense me, swiftly and speedily will I return your recompence upon your own head.

Joe 3:9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:
Joe 3:10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.
Joe 3:11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.

Joe 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
Joe 3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
Joe 3:16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

Which God said multitudes, multitudes, in the valley of decision, for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision, for when the nations come together will they turn to God, or will they stay with God, or will they follow the world, and will they side with the Jews or with the Palestinians.

Which Jesus will deliver all saints in the truth from that temptation that shall come upon the whole world to try those that dwell on earth, which Paul said the saints will not be deceived by it but will know it is not the operation of God, and that the world does not have the answer to follow them believing in evolution, and they can still evolve.

So the 6th Church is here now, so the 7th Church is here now, as well as the Roman Catholic Church, so all Churches probably have traces of those 7 Churches today, but the 3 big ones the Roman Catholic Church, the Protestant movement, and the 7th Church are all big influences at this time.

Laodecia

Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked.

And now the 7th Church that has a big influence at this time, which we can see this has occurred with many believing the prosperity Gospel, and loving money and material things, and worldliness, and much hypocrisy, which the Bible says there will be many hypocrites at this time.

They are lukewarm not really dedicating themselves to Christ like they should, and being hypocritical, straddling the fence of Christianity and worldliness.

And love money and material things, and not depending on God like they should, for they say they have need of nothing, but a saint is only supposed to go by their needs, and help the poor and needy if they can.

Which the love of money is the root of all evil, for it neglects the poor and needy, and love is the fulfilling of the law, and the operation of God on earth is people love each other, and that includes caring about the poor and needy.

Which the Bible even says feed and clothe your enemies so you know we have to care about all people, and God loves people not blessing the saints with their needs, and the Bible says the saints appear poor to the world but they possess all things to be given them in due time.

So I believe the 7 Churches are prophetic of how the Church history will go that has a big influence upon people at the time of their Church.

But Church history seems like it does not have that much influence upon people because of the denominations which are a lot of them, so many people will ignore it, and say how do we know they were right.

Denominations will be a bigger influence than history, and will defend it.

 

[Blik]

Why worry about Church history for we have the word of God, and if they want to believe a certain scripture of the Bible a certain away many are going to ignore Church history.

Denominations will always trump Church history, and the vast majority will cling to that.

Also it does not matter whether right or wrong some people will say how do we know they were right.

Like they say that the early Church members did not believe in a trinity, and baptism in Jesus' name, but many people do not care, and they will say how can it be proven, and will not believe it.

While the 7 Churches Jesus addressed in Revelation may have been actual Churches, I believe it is how Church history will go from the start until the nations come together and say Peace and safety, as being what was popular among the people of Church history, and if false in the time they had a big influence God always has people in the truth.

Ephesus

Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Love of people is the fulfilling of the law.

Not too much of a problem although it is a problem, they were doing good except they left their first love, which might mean they were not caring about people according to their needs like the early Church that did as they helped the poor saints, or thinking they were better than the other saints, but I believe it has to do with the love of people, for Jesus commended them they were doing right except this error.

And then it is speaking of worse conditions in the 3 next Churches, and it appears as if it points out the Roman Catholic Church when they had a big influence, for it is obvious when they embraced the Bible, and Christianity, that they did not get rid of their pagan, occult ways, and it became their foundation for the interpreting of scriptures, and the pagan, and the occult is of the devil.

Which God warns us of the new age movement that shall occur in the latter days, and their false interpretation of the Bible, which they give heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils, which will lead the world to the New Age Christ, and watch the Pope and the Vatican will go along with it for they can sway in interpretation for their foundation is pagan, and of the occult.

Sardis

Rev 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Then they seem to depart from that deception of the last 3 Churches, but was still not perfect yet which could be the Protestant movement that became a big influence, although not entirely had it sorted out yet, and back to all truth.

Philadelphia

Rev 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
Rev 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Jesus did not have a bad thing to say about these people which all these Churches have to be a big influence at the time, which could be the Protestant movement, and many others, finally got back to the truth, and Jesus said He will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say they are Jews come to worship before their feet.

Which when the Bible says Jews I do not believe it means according to the flesh, but a Gentile that is claiming Christ.

For when a Gentile is saved they become a Jew inward, and part of the commonwealth of Israel, but these people are claiming to be saved which they would be a Jew inward, but they are not, for God looks at a Gentile that is saved as a Jew, so if they claim to be saved but are not then God does not look at them as a Jew, although they claim to be saved.

For these major influences sure were not of Jews according to the flesh like the Roman Catholic Church, and Israel is blinded in part until salvation is no longer available to the Gentiles, and they were scattered in to the nations at one time, and could not be a big influence anyway as these Churches.

God always has people in the truth no matter the time period, but it appears at the 6th Church it is straightened out and back to total truth as popular influence, or big influence upon many people.

This is an indication that the 7 Churches are how the Church history will go with big influence upon people in their time period.

For Jesus said because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Which this Church has to be today and for some time now, for there can only be one temptation that can come upon the whole earth, affect all people at the same time, and that is when the nations come together and say Peace and safety, which Paul said the saints will not be deceived by that for they know it is not of God, and it is not the operation of God for the world for they are beginning to rebel against God until they cut Him out of the picture in their kingdom that will happen in the future.

Continued,

It is imperative that we look at church history. Church today has made decisions about reading and understanding scripture that needs to be carefully thought through. We say we must look at the changes that Christ made and know the old covenants are no more, as opposed to deciding that God is eternal with all God does expressing eternal principles we should learn. We say the sacrificial system is no more, we should not study it for its essence showing God's principles. It is a change in how scripture is thought of, we need to see why, when, and how that change was.

We say God replaced the Jews because they reject him and we are now His people because we accept Christ. At first it was the Jews who made the bulk of the Christians, what changed, when and why? What is the truth?

We say Christ changed the world and we have many new things through Christ. Scripture tells us Christ didn't change anything, Christ fulfilled what OT scripture told of. For the first 70 years of the Christian church this was accepted but it soon changed to how we think now. What changed, why and how?

 

[Dino246]

It is imperative that we look at church history. Church today has made decisions about reading and understanding scripture that needs to be carefully thought through. We say we must look at the changes that Christ made and know the old covenants are no more, as opposed to deciding that God is eternal with all God does expressing eternal principles we should learn. We say the sacrificial system is no more, we should not study it for its essence showing God's principles. It is a change in how scripture is thought of, we need to see why, when, and how that change was.

Please quote anyone who has suggested that "the old covenants (plural!) are no more".
Please quote anyone who has suggested that "we should not study it" (the sacrificial system).

We say God replaced the Jews because they reject him and we are now His people because we accept Christ. At first it was the Jews who made the bulk of the Christians, what changed, when and why? What is the truth?

By the end of the first century, likely most of the Christians were non-Jewish. Paul's efforts to bring the gospel to the gentiles saw to that. The churches he established around the Mediterranean would have grown and multiplied, while the church in Jerusalem was scattered and Jerusalem itself, and most of the Jewish nation, were destroyed in or around 70 AD.

We say Christ changed the world and we have many new things through Christ. Scripture tells us Christ didn't change anything, Christ fulfilled what OT scripture told of.

I haven't seen this anywhere in Scripture. Please provide a reference.

For the first 70 years of the Christian church this was accepted but it soon changed to how we think now. What changed, why and how?

Perhaps you could explain what you mean, and provide references.