Under Law or Under Grace

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Sep 23, 2023
847
76
28
#81
My view is that in Christ I am not under the Law. But I also do not believe that I am under the Law because I am not of Israel's covenant with God through Moses.
Since you are saying that "under Law" does not mean "a way of serving God", what do you think it means to be "under Law"?
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,237
2,210
113
#83
My view is that in Christ I am not under the Law. But I also do not believe that I am under the Law because I am not of Israel's covenant with God through Moses.
Do you consider the second set of tablets written after the first were shattered to be the 'new covenant'?
 
Sep 25, 2023
892
77
28
Washington State
#84
Do you believe the strangers of the OT were under the law of Moses?
I don't know what you mean? Do you mean the strangers in relation to Israel? Do you mean the strangers to the OT meaning the old covenant or the Scriptures from Genesis to Malachi or the TaNaKh (the Torah, the Nevi'im, the Ketuvim = the Law, the Prophets, the Writings) from Genesis to Chronicles? Those under the law of Moses was Israel from the covenant made at Mount Sinai (Har Sinai) through the prophet Moses and with the people or nation of Israel. So, no. Those who did not belong to Israel were not under the covenant. Could they have a relationship with God? I don't know.
 
Sep 25, 2023
892
77
28
Washington State
#91
OK, and that Covenant contains what? Commandments, right? Authoritative instructions on how to serve God right?
The covenant is the Ten Commandments or the Ten Words or the Ten Utterances, I am not sure which of these apply. But there was more than just these Ten. In total there are 613 mitzvot or commandments. Yes, they are or were authoritative instructions on how to serve God.
 
Aug 27, 2023
823
212
43
#92
I don't know what you mean? Do you mean the strangers in relation to Israel? Do you mean the strangers to the OT meaning the old covenant or the Scriptures from Genesis to Malachi or the TaNaKh (the Torah, the Nevi'im, the Ketuvim = the Law, the Prophets, the Writings) from Genesis to Chronicles? Those under the law of Moses was Israel from the covenant made at Mount Sinai (Har Sinai) through the prophet Moses and with the people or nation of Israel. So, no. Those who did not belong to Israel were not under the covenant. Could they have a relationship with God? I don't know.
Exodus 12:40-51
40 Now the sojourning of the children of Israel, who dwelt in Egypt, was four hundred and thirty years.
41 And it came to pass at the end of the four hundred and thirty years, even the selfsame day it came to pass, that all the hosts of the Lord went out from the land of Egypt.
42 It is a night to be much observed unto the Lord for bringing them out from the land of Egypt: this is that night of the Lord to be observed of all the children of Israel in their generations.
43 And the Lord said unto Moses and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the passover: There shall no [unconverted] stranger eat thereof:
44 But every man's servant that is bought for money, when thou hast circumcised [converted] him, then shall he eat thereof.
45 A [unconverted] foreigner and an hired servant shall not eat thereof.
46 In one house shall it be eaten; thou shalt not carry forth ought of the flesh abroad out of the house; neither shall ye break a bone thereof.
47 All the congregation of Israel shall keep it.
48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land [converted]: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.
49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the[converted] stranger that sojourneth among you.
50 Thus did all the children of Israel; as the Lord commanded Moses and Aaron, so did they.
51 And it came to pass the selfsame day, that the Lord did bring the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt by their armies. KJV
 
Sep 23, 2023
847
76
28
#93
The covenant is the Ten Commandments or the Ten Words or the Ten Utterances, I am not sure which of these apply. But there was more than just these Ten. In total there are 613 mitzvot or commandments. Yes, they are or were authoritative instructions on how to serve God.
OK so to be "under Law" includes the Law as a means of service, and this obligation on Jewish believers was what Paul was saying the death the Jewish believers died with Christ had effected them freedom from.

Now they serve by Grace. The Spirit of Grace writes God's Laws on the heart.
 
Sep 25, 2023
892
77
28
Washington State
#94
Exodus 12:40-51
40 Now the sojourning of the children of Israel, who dwelt in Egypt, was four hundred and thirty years.
41 And it came to pass at the end of the four hundred and thirty years, even the selfsame day it came to pass, that all the hosts of the Lord went out from the land of Egypt.
42 It is a night to be much observed unto the Lord for bringing them out from the land of Egypt: this is that night of the Lord to be observed of all the children of Israel in their generations.
43 And the Lord said unto Moses and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the passover: There shall no [unconverted] stranger eat thereof:
44 But every man's servant that is bought for money, when thou hast circumcised [converted] him, then shall he eat thereof.
45 A [unconverted] foreigner and an hired servant shall not eat thereof.
46 In one house shall it be eaten; thou shalt not carry forth ought of the flesh abroad out of the house; neither shall ye break a bone thereof.
47 All the congregation of Israel shall keep it.
48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land [converted]: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.
49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the[converted] stranger that sojourneth among you.
50 Thus did all the children of Israel; as the Lord commanded Moses and Aaron, so did they.
51 And it came to pass the selfsame day, that the Lord did bring the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt by their armies. KJV
Exodus 12:40-51 KJV - Now the sojourning of the children of Israel, who dwelt in Egypt, [was] four hundred and thirty years. And it came to pass at the end of the four hundred and thirty years, even the selfsame day it came to pass, that all the hosts of the LORD went out from the land of Egypt. It [is] a night to be much observed unto the LORD for bringing them out from the land of Egypt: this [is] that night of the LORD to be observed of all the children of Israel in their generations. And the LORD said unto Moses and Aaron, This [is] the ordinance of the passover: There shall no stranger eat thereof: But every man's servant that is bought for money, when thou hast circumcised him, then shall he eat thereof. A foreigner and an hired servant shall not eat thereof. In one house shall it be eaten; thou shalt not carry forth ought of the flesh abroad out of the house; neither shall ye break a bone thereof. All the congregation of Israel shall keep it. And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof. One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you. Thus did all the children of Israel; as the LORD commanded Moses and Aaron, so did they. And it came to pass the selfsame day, [that] the LORD did bring the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt by their armies.
 
Sep 25, 2023
892
77
28
Washington State
#95
OK so to be "under Law" includes the Law as a means of service, and this obligation on Jewish believers was what Paul was saying the death the Jewish believers died with Christ had effected them freedom from.

Now they serve by Grace. The Spirit of Grace writes God's Laws on the heart.
You sound like a scholar. But I am not sure.
 
Sep 23, 2023
847
76
28
#96
You sound like a scholar. But I am not sure.
I would prefer to stay on topic.

The living Jew is obligated to serve by the means of the Torah.
The Torah stipulates that same Jew's freedom when he dies.
Since the believing Jew shares in Christ's death, he is liberated from that obligation.
Now, how is he to serve? Grace. "Not under Law but under Grace".
 
Sep 25, 2023
892
77
28
Washington State
#97
I would prefer to stay on topic.

The living Jew is obligated to serve by the means of the Torah.
The Torah stipulates that same Jew's freedom when he dies.
Since the believing Jew shares in Christ's death, he is liberated from that obligation.
Now, how is he to serve? Grace. "Not under Law but under Grace".
No.

Romans 7:6 NASB20 - But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
 
Aug 27, 2023
823
212
43
#98
Exodus 12:40-51 KJV - Now the sojourning of the children of Israel, who dwelt in Egypt, [was] four hundred and thirty years. And it came to pass at the end of the four hundred and thirty years, even the selfsame day it came to pass, that all the hosts of the LORD went out from the land of Egypt. It [is] a night to be much observed unto the LORD for bringing them out from the land of Egypt: this [is] that night of the LORD to be observed of all the children of Israel in their generations. And the LORD said unto Moses and Aaron, This [is] the ordinance of the passover: There shall no stranger eat thereof: But every man's servant that is bought for money, when thou hast circumcised him, then shall he eat thereof. A foreigner and an hired servant shall not eat thereof. In one house shall it be eaten; thou shalt not carry forth ought of the flesh abroad out of the house; neither shall ye break a bone thereof. All the congregation of Israel shall keep it. And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof. One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you. Thus did all the children of Israel; as the LORD commanded Moses and Aaron, so did they. And it came to pass the selfsame day, [that] the LORD did bring the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt by their armies.
Not sure what you are getting at, can you elaborate a bit?
 
Sep 23, 2023
847
76
28
No.

Romans 7:6 NASB20 - But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
LOL What do you mean "no"?
You agreed with me!