We are taught right and wrong it is not preprogrammed. A dog behaves instinctively until we use classic conditioning to train him. The same way we train soldiers to kill. “Good boy!” Anybody else is taught if they kill then they are sinners and criminals. Soldiers who kill indiscriminately are heroes. Others are sociopaths. Going against your conscience brings guilt. This is why when Paul was asked about eating meat sacrificed to idols he declared if you think it’s wrong then to you it’s sin. The fruit of knowing right from wrong is guilt.
Two trees
- Thread starter Lanolin
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Was manna a fruit or was it something else. How did they gather it?
I am not aware that the geen bay tree has any fruit..,it has leaves that are used for seasoning soups though.
I dont know about the guilt thing. Maybe its more remorse than guilt. i think others can make others feel guilty when they have absolutely no reason to be.
I am not aware that the geen bay tree has any fruit..,it has leaves that are used for seasoning soups though.
I dont know about the guilt thing. Maybe its more remorse than guilt. i think others can make others feel guilty when they have absolutely no reason to be.
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i think the evidence in scripture points to the forbidden tree being a fig
the earliest examples of it being depicted as an apple that are known are around 1100's. religious art in those times was very 'iconographic' -- there was a kind of visual 'language' in which every element in the images had a metaphorical meaning, and the paintings themselves were meant to tell a story through representation, as opposed to being images just 'to look pretty' -- in that sense just because something is pictured a certain way doesn't mean anyone thought that was a literally accurate representation of what it looked like. certain 'icons' are used because of their meaning.
one explanation for an apple being used is that there's a certain common pun in the old world: the word 'malus' means both 'apple' and 'evil' in Latin.
perhaps interestingly, in the Sistine Chapel frescoes, Michelangelo depicted the forbidden tree as a fig. by that time ((1508-1512)) artwork was no longer iconographic, but more realistic, while humanisticly exaggerating human form in a style greatly influenced by Roman/Greek lifelike-but-heavily-idealistic marble sculpture.
the earliest examples of it being depicted as an apple that are known are around 1100's. religious art in those times was very 'iconographic' -- there was a kind of visual 'language' in which every element in the images had a metaphorical meaning, and the paintings themselves were meant to tell a story through representation, as opposed to being images just 'to look pretty' -- in that sense just because something is pictured a certain way doesn't mean anyone thought that was a literally accurate representation of what it looked like. certain 'icons' are used because of their meaning.
one explanation for an apple being used is that there's a certain common pun in the old world: the word 'malus' means both 'apple' and 'evil' in Latin.
perhaps interestingly, in the Sistine Chapel frescoes, Michelangelo depicted the forbidden tree as a fig. by that time ((1508-1512)) artwork was no longer iconographic, but more realistic, while humanisticly exaggerating human form in a style greatly influenced by Roman/Greek lifelike-but-heavily-idealistic marble sculpture.
They failed to think that through. Johnny Appleseed must have been chagrined.
the apples he was encouraging people to grow weren't good for eating, but for making cider - including the very popular mildly alcoholic kind early Americans ((and to this day people in Appalachia)) call 'applejack'
apples are extremely genetically diverse, so that apples grown by seed are typically way to sour for eating or cooking.
by the 1820's there were campaigns to burn down apple orchards, in the name of sobriety.
source: https://americanorchard.wordpress.com/2014/03/13/the-war-on-the-cider-apple/
why did they choose fig leaves?
i like plumbing factors to their essence
it's kind of my job description, actually
i do not agree that they had no ability to distinguish between good and evil until after they chose evil.
IMO that is a completely indefensible position. & neither did they 'become like God' by doing evil.
that's a lie of Satan - like, literally, it's what Satan said, deceiving Woman, but not what God ever said.
for example Woman clearly saw that the fruit was 'good for food' and 'desirable for wisdom' before ever having eaten of it. so she clearly already has a sense of good & evil / wisdom & foolishness / obedience & disobedience / desirable & undesirable, an ability to distinguish between them, and an independent will to weigh choices.
i like plumbing factors to their essence
it's kind of my job description, actually
i do not agree that they had no ability to distinguish between good and evil until after they chose evil.
IMO that is a completely indefensible position. & neither did they 'become like God' by doing evil.
that's a lie of Satan - like, literally, it's what Satan said, deceiving Woman, but not what God ever said.
for example Woman clearly saw that the fruit was 'good for food' and 'desirable for wisdom' before ever having eaten of it. so she clearly already has a sense of good & evil / wisdom & foolishness / obedience & disobedience / desirable & undesirable, an ability to distinguish between them, and an independent will to weigh choices.
bananas are technically not trees. they're herbs ((no woody stem)).
as an aside, banana leaves would a be a whole lot more useful for tunic-making than fig leaves...
i mean if you've got it in mind to sew clothes from leaves, with the whole of the greatest botanical garden in all of history to choose from, why fig leaves?? that's a terrible choice, functionally!
as an aside, banana leaves would a be a whole lot more useful for tunic-making than fig leaves...
i mean if you've got it in mind to sew clothes from leaves, with the whole of the greatest botanical garden in all of history to choose from, why fig leaves?? that's a terrible choice, functionally!
why did they choose fig leaves?
i like plumbing factors to their essence
it's kind of my job description, actually
i do not agree that they had no ability to distinguish between good and evil until after they chose evil.
IMO that is a completely indefensible position. & neither did they 'become like God' by doing evil.
that's a lie of Satan - like, literally, it's what Satan said, deceiving Woman, but not what God ever said.
for example Woman clearly saw that the fruit was 'good for food' and 'desirable for wisdom' before ever having eaten of it. so she clearly already has a sense of good & evil / wisdom & foolishness / obedience & disobedience / desirable & undesirable, an ability to distinguish between them, and an independent will to weigh choices.
i like plumbing factors to their essence
it's kind of my job description, actually
i do not agree that they had no ability to distinguish between good and evil until after they chose evil.
IMO that is a completely indefensible position. & neither did they 'become like God' by doing evil.
that's a lie of Satan - like, literally, it's what Satan said, deceiving Woman, but not what God ever said.
for example Woman clearly saw that the fruit was 'good for food' and 'desirable for wisdom' before ever having eaten of it. so she clearly already has a sense of good & evil / wisdom & foolishness / obedience & disobedience / desirable & undesirable, an ability to distinguish between them, and an independent will to weigh choices.
She saw that it was desirable for gaining wisdom, but she ignored the wisdom imparted her by the command of God.
The foregoing suggests she neither knew the difference between good and evil nor of wisdom and folly before she ate of the fruit.
Probably because a fig tree was handy. Also its leaves are broad and sturdy. It is significant that Christ cursed a fig tree which was full of leaves, but had no fruit (because it was not the season for fruit). That tree just withered away from its roots. It says that Jesus was hungry at that time and found no fruit on it.
you're leaving out the fact she was deceived.
the narrative indisputably shows she has the capability to make moral & intrinsic value judgements.
whether she was right about the decisions she made is immaterial to the fact she makes them. she has concepts of good and evil and is able to distinguish between them. awareness of ethics & morality is not something gained by committing sin. she has intelligence & conscious will. she has the ability to discern between 'good' and 'bad' choices. she understands that it is right to obey and wrong to disobey.
and she is tricked into calling evil, 'good' and calling good, 'evil' -- Satan makes moral arguments to her. he uses ethical persuasion. he appeals to her sense of justice, tho he does so with lies.
the narrative indisputably shows she has the capability to make moral & intrinsic value judgements.
whether she was right about the decisions she made is immaterial to the fact she makes them. she has concepts of good and evil and is able to distinguish between them. awareness of ethics & morality is not something gained by committing sin. she has intelligence & conscious will. she has the ability to discern between 'good' and 'bad' choices. she understands that it is right to obey and wrong to disobey.
and she is tricked into calling evil, 'good' and calling good, 'evil' -- Satan makes moral arguments to her. he uses ethical persuasion. he appeals to her sense of justice, tho he does so with lies.
notice that God never says Woman has become like Him, knowing good from evil. He says 'ha-adam' = the singular, particular man. Adam. He doesn't say 'mankind' or 'the man and the woman' but He says, Adam.
and notice that God does not say this until Adam changes his dead wife's name to life.
so we have to understand why he does that. why he calls her Eve.
He does that because he hears and believes the gospel in the judgement of the serpent. Adam even having fallen is incredibly wise, and has incredible faith, and recognizes that God is promising to restore humanity from the fall through a promised Seed.
He knows that God has said they will be redeemed. so he calls his dead wife "life"
at this God sheds innocent blood and covers them, and says "behold!!" -- Adam has become like one of "The Us"
which one?
Adam has become like Christ, declaring the dead to be alive. Adam had taken death upon himself for the sake of his bride, and Adam saw that God would do what he could not, because Adam had chosen death in vanity, but God would bear death in righteousness for the sake of the unrighteous. He would be bruised in the heal, but He would crush the head of the murderer.
so Adam saw how that this is to the glory of God. he learned goodness from evil: he became humbled, and believing, knowing the righteousness that is looking to God for mercy. he didn't gain that from committing sin, but from faith.
what he gained from transgression, from eating the fruit of the forbidden tree, was shame & death: experiential knowledge of sin, firsthand knowledge of the effect of its poison, and its consequences.
that doesn't mean Adam was naive before he sinned and by sinning he gained wisdom. it means he didn't just have an awareness that disobedience is wrong, but he had for the first time real knowledge of evil.
it's like how we *know* God hangs the earth on nothing ((Job 26:7)), but we would *really know* it if we were out in orbit or on our way to mars, looking down on it. how we *know* that we will die in these bodies, but we *really know* when we have an heart attack or a stroke or a terrible accident, and we're brought all the way to that doorstep.
Adam had up to that point only *known* good because everything God made was good and Adam only did what was good. he had never *known* evil in that he had never *done* evil.
that's an alien concept to us, who are sinning from infancy, being vain and selfish and covetous and soon learning to lie for our lusts.
i consider Adam to be a very very smart fellow. he's not an idiot. he knows God sees all things, i.e. "they're naked" -- they have been naked from the beginning, but before sin, they had no shame. that is specifically written in Genesis 2:25
so when 'they realized they were naked' what they realized is that their shame could not be hidden.
so he and his wife covered himself with their shame. this isn't trying to make it so that God can't see them: Adam and God walk together all the time; he knows God deeply and personally. He isn't stupid enough to think some foliage can keep God from finding him.
he hides because he's afraid; it is an appointed meeting time and he's supposed to be in an appointed place to walk with God in the cool of the day. instead he doesn't keep the appointment. that's what 'hiding' means.
it's cool you don't think it is a fig. i reckon you think it's a date palm because they're common in the Levant. that's fine.
but i want you to understand why i'd say the evidence points to figs. it's the tree Christ curses, the only thing ever recorded that He curses. it's the thing Adam covers himself with in his shame. it's the thing God removes from them when God accepts their confessions and covers them with new garments. it's the tree that, in describing a state of peace, everyone sits under their own.
so when 'they realized they were naked' what they realized is that their shame could not be hidden.
so he and his wife covered himself with their shame. this isn't trying to make it so that God can't see them: Adam and God walk together all the time; he knows God deeply and personally. He isn't stupid enough to think some foliage can keep God from finding him.
he hides because he's afraid; it is an appointed meeting time and he's supposed to be in an appointed place to walk with God in the cool of the day. instead he doesn't keep the appointment. that's what 'hiding' means.
it's cool you don't think it is a fig. i reckon you think it's a date palm because they're common in the Levant. that's fine.
but i want you to understand why i'd say the evidence points to figs. it's the tree Christ curses, the only thing ever recorded that He curses. it's the thing Adam covers himself with in his shame. it's the thing God removes from them when God accepts their confessions and covers them with new garments. it's the tree that, in describing a state of peace, everyone sits under their own.