True or False - "Another Jesus"?
- Thread starter Grace911
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
^ Should add (to my prior post re: Hebrews 9:10)...
Hebrews 13:9-13 -
9 Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings, for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace and not by foods [G1033 - brōmasin ] of no value to those devoted to them. 10 We have an altar from which those who serve at the tabernacle have no right to eat.
11 Although the high priest brings the blood of animals into the Holy Place as a sacrifice for sin, the bodies are burned outside the camp. 12 And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate, to sanctify the people by His own blood. 13 Therefore let us go to Him outside the camp, bearing the disgrace He bore.
Hebrews 13:9-13 -
9 Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings, for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace and not by foods [G1033 - brōmasin ] of no value to those devoted to them. 10 We have an altar from which those who serve at the tabernacle have no right to eat.
11 Although the high priest brings the blood of animals into the Holy Place as a sacrifice for sin, the bodies are burned outside the camp. 12 And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate, to sanctify the people by His own blood. 13 Therefore let us go to Him outside the camp, bearing the disgrace He bore.
Satan's sign = Rev 13:16-17 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
God's sign = Exo 31:13-18 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you. Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed. And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.
Straight from the Vatican (This Sunday command to rest will one day within a few years, become THE LAW to the whole globe in the name of preventing "Climate diasters" - no freedom of religion - but Mark of the Beast) UN Climate Summit 2019
Also, Did Martin Luther's protest of 95 theses go far enough to pull Christians back to the truth of God's forever unchanging Word? Why does the Catholic papal believe they have the authority to change the laws and times of God's Words or the Law of the Lands/globe? Who do you follow? Man's traditions or God's truths?
Beware!! The following from the Vatican sounds really good and if you don't know the Bible foundation and have the Living Word inside of you, you will want to serve the Pope's command and worship his Sabbath. The Protests stopped short of saving the true Sabbath, and therefore, all who have done away with the Lord's Sabbath, have been deceived into following Satan's deception.
Mal_3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Heb_13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Mat_1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Catholic Ten Commandments
PART THREE
LIFE IN CHRIST
SECTION TWO
THE TEN COMMANDMENTS
CHAPTER ONE
"YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND"
ARTICLE 3
THE THIRD COMMANDMENT
* I. THE SABBATH DAY
2168 The third commandment of the Decalogue recalls the holiness of the sabbath: "The seventh day is a sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the LORD."92
To see the rest of Vatican's post please hit link below:
Straight from the Vatican
God's sign = Exo 31:13-18 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you. Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed. And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.
Straight from the Vatican (This Sunday command to rest will one day within a few years, become THE LAW to the whole globe in the name of preventing "Climate diasters" - no freedom of religion - but Mark of the Beast) UN Climate Summit 2019
Also, Did Martin Luther's protest of 95 theses go far enough to pull Christians back to the truth of God's forever unchanging Word? Why does the Catholic papal believe they have the authority to change the laws and times of God's Words or the Law of the Lands/globe? Who do you follow? Man's traditions or God's truths?
Beware!! The following from the Vatican sounds really good and if you don't know the Bible foundation and have the Living Word inside of you, you will want to serve the Pope's command and worship his Sabbath. The Protests stopped short of saving the true Sabbath, and therefore, all who have done away with the Lord's Sabbath, have been deceived into following Satan's deception.
Mal_3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Heb_13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Mat_1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Catholic Ten Commandments
PART THREE
LIFE IN CHRIST
SECTION TWO
THE TEN COMMANDMENTS
CHAPTER ONE
"YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND"
ARTICLE 3
THE THIRD COMMANDMENT
* I. THE SABBATH DAY
2168 The third commandment of the Decalogue recalls the holiness of the sabbath: "The seventh day is a sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the LORD."92
To see the rest of Vatican's post please hit link below:
Straight from the Vatican
Colossians 2:16's usage of "G1035 - brosei ["food" singular, noun]" and "G4213 - posei ["drink" singular, noun]" ( https://biblehub.com/text/colossians/2-16.htm ) reminds me of the following (instead of the above-quoted explanation):
Hebrews 9:10 ( https://biblehub.com/text/hebrews/9-10.htm ) -
"8 the Holy Spirit this evidencing that not yet hath been manifested the way of the holy [places], the first tabernacle [the tabernacle in the wilderness, per vv.1-4 (as evidenced by the "golden pot of manna" and "Aaron's rod that budded")] having yet a standing; 9 which [is] a simile [/parable] in regard to the present time, in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered, which are not able, in regard to conscience, to make perfect him who is serving, 10 only in victuals [/foods/meats - G1033 - bromasin, plural noun], and drinks [G4188 - pomasin, plural noun], and different baptisms, and fleshly ordinances — till the time of reformation imposed upon [them]."
So, no... the above-quoted explanation remains unconvincing to me.
Hebrews 9:10 ( https://biblehub.com/text/hebrews/9-10.htm ) -
"8 the Holy Spirit this evidencing that not yet hath been manifested the way of the holy [places], the first tabernacle [the tabernacle in the wilderness, per vv.1-4 (as evidenced by the "golden pot of manna" and "Aaron's rod that budded")] having yet a standing; 9 which [is] a simile [/parable] in regard to the present time, in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered, which are not able, in regard to conscience, to make perfect him who is serving, 10 only in victuals [/foods/meats - G1033 - bromasin, plural noun], and drinks [G4188 - pomasin, plural noun], and different baptisms, and fleshly ordinances — till the time of reformation imposed upon [them]."
So, no... the above-quoted explanation remains unconvincing to me.
It remains to me obvious that a people who are not practicing something, doing something, are not advised to disregard judgment from others for what they are doing.
It is in fact saying the people are observing these things. That is why Paul is telling them to be not concerned of those who would judge them for it.
I would wonder at the argument against the Sabbath by a people today who attend Sunday's services.
It would seem if a people are opposed to remembering God one day in a week that was made by God for them , that those same people would not attend church on any day of the week because that day purports to be for the same purpose.
Therefore the curiosity becomes, are such a people opposed because it happens to be they wrongly believe Sabbath is a Jewish thing?
We are aware there are those who follow Replacement (Christian Antisemitic) Theology and believe themselves to be in the body of Christ.
Would this opposition to God's appointed Sabbath made for us be another symptom of that discrimination.
It is in fact saying the people are observing these things. That is why Paul is telling them to be not concerned of those who would judge them for it.
I would wonder at the argument against the Sabbath by a people today who attend Sunday's services.
It would seem if a people are opposed to remembering God one day in a week that was made by God for them , that those same people would not attend church on any day of the week because that day purports to be for the same purpose.
Therefore the curiosity becomes, are such a people opposed because it happens to be they wrongly believe Sabbath is a Jewish thing?
We are aware there are those who follow Replacement (Christian Antisemitic) Theology and believe themselves to be in the body of Christ.
Would this opposition to God's appointed Sabbath made for us be another symptom of that discrimination.
Back to this part of your post.
The readers may recall my saying that I do not believe ANY part of the Olivet Discourse is covering the Subject of "the Church which is His body" or of our "Rapture" (per context); He is covering the Subject of [what we call] His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom.
Having said that, here is something I had posted elsewhere yesterday (I think maybe even before this convo "came up" here, not sure)... so I'm just going to post these few posts of mine here (without doing the work of trying to "write them better" as I'd hoped to)...
[quoting]
"[...] and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined."
This says it is "the people [OF the prince THAT SHALL COME--not the same "prince" verse 25 spoke of (and v.26A)]" is who will "destroy the city and the sanctuary (see Luke 21:20,23; and Luke 19:41-44 [what Jesus had said ON the very day that He did the Zech9:9 thing, and the very day that the 62 Weeks [69 total] was fulfilled, on Palm Sunday]; and Matthew 22:7 [all regarding the 70ad events which would follow His "shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself [or, and have nothing]"]), but notice...
at the end of the "70ad section" of the Luke 21 passage I mentioned above (the 70ad section being Lk21:12-24a, with part b following on from there), where verse 24 says, "and they shall be led away captive into all the nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles [see also Rev11:2] UNTIL the TIMES of the Gentiles be fulfilled" ("the TIMES of the Gentiles" having started in 606/605bc [think: Neb's dream/statue/image, with Neb as "head of gold"] and representing "Gentile domination over Israel" [not referring to the so-called "church age" and being completely distinct from the phrase "the FULNESS of the Gentiles")] and concluding at His Second Coming to the earth [having nothing whatsoever to do with "our Rapture," etc]), so that...
what we see in Daniel 9:25-27 is SEQUENTIAL. Meaning, what happens in 27a comes AFTER what verse 26b's description of "the people [OF the prince THAT SHALL COME, not he himself] shall destroy the city and the sanctuary" (the 70ad events of Lk21:20,23 [12-24a,b]; Lk19:41-44; Matt22:7...) <--but not that this part is the end of everything pertaining to them! For we see in Lk21:32, that the "TILL ALL BE FULFILLED" necessarily INCLUDES what v.24 had just spelled out ("and they shall be led away captive into all the nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles UNTIL the TIMES of the Gentiles be fulfilled [at the end of the trib at His Second Coming to the earth, in Rev19, per Rev11:2]"). These are the contents of vv.26b and 27a,b,c in Daniel 9 (considered SEQUENTIALLY, and by viewing the parallels): "desolationS are determined" etc.
[continued in next post]
The readers may recall my saying that I do not believe ANY part of the Olivet Discourse is covering the Subject of "the Church which is His body" or of our "Rapture" (per context); He is covering the Subject of [what we call] His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom.
Having said that, here is something I had posted elsewhere yesterday (I think maybe even before this convo "came up" here, not sure)... so I'm just going to post these few posts of mine here (without doing the work of trying to "write them better" as I'd hoped to)...
[quoting]
"[...] and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined."
This says it is "the people [OF the prince THAT SHALL COME--not the same "prince" verse 25 spoke of (and v.26A)]" is who will "destroy the city and the sanctuary (see Luke 21:20,23; and Luke 19:41-44 [what Jesus had said ON the very day that He did the Zech9:9 thing, and the very day that the 62 Weeks [69 total] was fulfilled, on Palm Sunday]; and Matthew 22:7 [all regarding the 70ad events which would follow His "shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself [or, and have nothing]"]), but notice...
at the end of the "70ad section" of the Luke 21 passage I mentioned above (the 70ad section being Lk21:12-24a, with part b following on from there), where verse 24 says, "and they shall be led away captive into all the nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles [see also Rev11:2] UNTIL the TIMES of the Gentiles be fulfilled" ("the TIMES of the Gentiles" having started in 606/605bc [think: Neb's dream/statue/image, with Neb as "head of gold"] and representing "Gentile domination over Israel" [not referring to the so-called "church age" and being completely distinct from the phrase "the FULNESS of the Gentiles")] and concluding at His Second Coming to the earth [having nothing whatsoever to do with "our Rapture," etc]), so that...
what we see in Daniel 9:25-27 is SEQUENTIAL. Meaning, what happens in 27a comes AFTER what verse 26b's description of "the people [OF the prince THAT SHALL COME, not he himself] shall destroy the city and the sanctuary" (the 70ad events of Lk21:20,23 [12-24a,b]; Lk19:41-44; Matt22:7...) <--but not that this part is the end of everything pertaining to them! For we see in Lk21:32, that the "TILL ALL BE FULFILLED" necessarily INCLUDES what v.24 had just spelled out ("and they shall be led away captive into all the nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles UNTIL the TIMES of the Gentiles be fulfilled [at the end of the trib at His Second Coming to the earth, in Rev19, per Rev11:2]"). These are the contents of vv.26b and 27a,b,c in Daniel 9 (considered SEQUENTIALLY, and by viewing the parallels): "desolationS are determined" etc.
[continued in next post]
[continued]
I think it is a mistake to not view Daniel 9:25-27 as being "SEQUENTIAL," as in the following:
1) "62 Weeks" [69 Weeks total (or 483yrs)] completed on Palm Sunday [Zech9:9; Lk19:41-44]
2) He/Jesus/Messiah "cut off" ("after 62 Weeks" [69 Weeks total completed]);
and then the 70ad events [as Lk19:41-44 had said; also Matt22:7; also Lk21:23,20 (in the "70ad" section of the Olivet Discourse of Lk21, that is, in vv.12-24a [pt b following on from there])]
3) then lastly, the "for ONE WEEK [7-yrs]" thing [last in the SEQUENCE]
And this SEQUENCE is consistent in what we see also in:
--[btwn] Matt22:7 [70ad events] and 22:8 ["THEN SAITH HE to his servants," which "THEN SAITH HE to" necessarily took place FOLLOWING these 70ad events (He's in Heaven at this point, recall)--I can supply scriptures to show what I mean...]; and
--the TWO distinct "SEE-then-FLEE" of the Olivet Discourse, with its SEQUENCE and TIMING clues therein (proving them to be distinct and wholly separated in time/history--one in the 70ad events which PRECEDES "the beginning of birth pangs"; the other "far-future" and FOLLOWING "the beginning of birth pangs" ["the BOBPs" being IDENTICAL/the IDENTICAL events in all three passages: Matt24:4-8/Mk13:5-8/Lk21:8-11])
--more...
[and]
I agree that vv.25 and 26a both refer to Jesus (but not v.26b where it is speaking of "THE PEOPLE OF" what I'm saying is a DIFFERENT "prince THAT SHALL COME"... the people OF him, are who do the "destroy the city and the sanctuary" in the "AFTER 62 Wks... cut off [of Jesus]" part... This is not conveying the point that "the prince THAT SHALL COME" is present when "the people OF [him]" DO the "destroy..." thing )
So, I see Daniel 9:25 to be saying:
--"FROM _____"
--"UNTO/UNTIL ____"
= _______ [7 Wks and 62 Wks... a sum total of 483 years (fulfilled/completed ON Palm Sunday; Lk19:41-44[Zech9:9 BOTH re: "the city" just like Daniel 9:25's prophecy is SAID to PERTAIN to])];
...and AFTER the "62 Wks" shall Messiah be "cut off" ("but not for himself"; or, "and have nothing");
...once he's "cut off," THEN "the people [OF the prince THAT SHALL COME] shall destroy the city and the sanctuary" (like Lk19:41-44 [Zech9:9 BOTH re: "the city"], and Lk21:23,20, and Matt22:7 [i.e. the 70ad events];
...and then... far-future... verse 27a comes into view (SEQUENTIALLY and corresponding with the SEQUENCE issues I've pointed out elsewhere in scripture [related])
[end quoting those posts]
So, I'm saying Jesus' specific wording in Matt24 corresponds with Dan12:11 (the SINGULAR)
I think it is a mistake to not view Daniel 9:25-27 as being "SEQUENTIAL," as in the following:
1) "62 Weeks" [69 Weeks total (or 483yrs)] completed on Palm Sunday [Zech9:9; Lk19:41-44]
2) He/Jesus/Messiah "cut off" ("after 62 Weeks" [69 Weeks total completed]);
and then the 70ad events [as Lk19:41-44 had said; also Matt22:7; also Lk21:23,20 (in the "70ad" section of the Olivet Discourse of Lk21, that is, in vv.12-24a [pt b following on from there])]
3) then lastly, the "for ONE WEEK [7-yrs]" thing [last in the SEQUENCE]
And this SEQUENCE is consistent in what we see also in:
--[btwn] Matt22:7 [70ad events] and 22:8 ["THEN SAITH HE to his servants," which "THEN SAITH HE to" necessarily took place FOLLOWING these 70ad events (He's in Heaven at this point, recall)--I can supply scriptures to show what I mean...]; and
--the TWO distinct "SEE-then-FLEE" of the Olivet Discourse, with its SEQUENCE and TIMING clues therein (proving them to be distinct and wholly separated in time/history--one in the 70ad events which PRECEDES "the beginning of birth pangs"; the other "far-future" and FOLLOWING "the beginning of birth pangs" ["the BOBPs" being IDENTICAL/the IDENTICAL events in all three passages: Matt24:4-8/Mk13:5-8/Lk21:8-11])
--more...
[and]
I agree that vv.25 and 26a both refer to Jesus (but not v.26b where it is speaking of "THE PEOPLE OF" what I'm saying is a DIFFERENT "prince THAT SHALL COME"... the people OF him, are who do the "destroy the city and the sanctuary" in the "AFTER 62 Wks... cut off [of Jesus]" part... This is not conveying the point that "the prince THAT SHALL COME" is present when "the people OF [him]" DO the "destroy..." thing
)So, I see Daniel 9:25 to be saying:
--"FROM _____"
--"UNTO/UNTIL ____"
= _______ [7 Wks and 62 Wks... a sum total of 483 years (fulfilled/completed ON Palm Sunday; Lk19:41-44[Zech9:9 BOTH re: "the city" just like Daniel 9:25's prophecy is SAID to PERTAIN to])];
...and AFTER the "62 Wks" shall Messiah be "cut off" ("but not for himself"; or, "and have nothing");
...once he's "cut off," THEN "the people [OF the prince THAT SHALL COME] shall destroy the city and the sanctuary" (like Lk19:41-44 [Zech9:9 BOTH re: "the city"], and Lk21:23,20, and Matt22:7 [i.e. the 70ad events];
...and then... far-future... verse 27a comes into view (SEQUENTIALLY and corresponding with the SEQUENCE issues I've pointed out elsewhere in scripture [related])
[end quoting those posts]
So, I'm saying Jesus' specific wording in Matt24 corresponds with Dan12:11 (the SINGULAR)
^ So, I'm saying Jesus' specific wording in Matt24:15 corresponds with Dan12:11 (the SINGULAR "abominaTION")… though Dan9:27b also speaks to the mid-trib point ("in the midst of the WEEK [7yrs]"), if that makes sense.
And then Dan12:11's "set up" wording corresponds with 2Th2:4's "sitteth" ("transitive"; G2523--"(a) trans: I make to sit; I set, appoint"), also at the mid-trib point.
And then Dan12:11's "set up" wording corresponds with 2Th2:4's "sitteth" ("transitive"; G2523--"(a) trans: I make to sit; I set, appoint"), also at the mid-trib point.
Oh, and one more thing...
Daniel 7:20-21,25[27] -
20 I also wanted to know about the ten horns on its head and the other horn that came up, before which three of them fell—the horn whose appearance was more imposing than the others, with eyes and with a mouth that spoke words of arrogance. 21 As I watched, this horn was waging war against the saints and prevailing against them, [...]
[...]
25 He will speak out against the Most High and oppress the saints of the Most High, intending to change the appointed times and laws; and the saints will be given into his hand for a time, and times, and half a time.
[v.27 thereafter showing the END of the trib; the above and verse 25 showing the mid-point to the end-point (i.e. "the second half of the 7-yr trib")]
... ^ corresponding with Revelation 13:5-7 (beast was given a "mouth"... "was given unto him to make war with the saints and to overcome them"... and then see v.15b-16 "[second beast] cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. And he causeth all... to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads..." [Rev20:4 informs us that not all do receive it, and many are KILLED due to this])...so that,
this "prevailed against [the saints]" is what is taking place IN/DURING the trib yrs (primarily the second half), and this does not pertain to "the Church which is His body" (we are not awaiting a future 7-yr period in order to experience such/persecutions... the persecution of "the Church which is His body" has been taking place ever since its existence on the earth in [and since] the first century! see 2Th1:4, for example); the above-mentioned passages take place in the specific, limited, future time period (FOLLOWING "our Rapture/Departure"), and pertain specifically to the "saints" of that time period [having come to faith WITHIN/IN/DURING the trib yrs, FOLLOWING our Rapture/Departure], that future, specific, limited time-period which leads UP TO His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom
[Dan7:27 following the specific time-period referenced in v.25 (second-half trib), just before this v.27 END]
Daniel 7:20-21,25[27] -
20 I also wanted to know about the ten horns on its head and the other horn that came up, before which three of them fell—the horn whose appearance was more imposing than the others, with eyes and with a mouth that spoke words of arrogance. 21 As I watched, this horn was waging war against the saints and prevailing against them, [...]
[...]
25 He will speak out against the Most High and oppress the saints of the Most High, intending to change the appointed times and laws; and the saints will be given into his hand for a time, and times, and half a time.
[v.27 thereafter showing the END of the trib; the above and verse 25 showing the mid-point to the end-point (i.e. "the second half of the 7-yr trib")]
... ^ corresponding with Revelation 13:5-7 (beast was given a "mouth"... "was given unto him to make war with the saints and to overcome them"... and then see v.15b-16 "[second beast] cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. And he causeth all... to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads..." [Rev20:4 informs us that not all do receive it, and many are KILLED due to this])...so that,
this "prevailed against [the saints]" is what is taking place IN/DURING the trib yrs (primarily the second half), and this does not pertain to "the Church which is His body" (we are not awaiting a future 7-yr period in order to experience such/persecutions... the persecution of "the Church which is His body" has been taking place ever since its existence on the earth in [and since] the first century! see 2Th1:4, for example); the above-mentioned passages take place in the specific, limited, future time period (FOLLOWING "our Rapture/Departure"), and pertain specifically to the "saints" of that time period [having come to faith WITHIN/IN/DURING the trib yrs, FOLLOWING our Rapture/Departure], that future, specific, limited time-period which leads UP TO His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom
[Dan7:27 following the specific time-period referenced in v.25 (second-half trib), just before this v.27 END]
Oh, and one more thing...
Daniel 7:20-21,25[27] -
20 I also wanted to know about the ten horns on its head and the other horn that came up, before which three of them fell—the horn whose appearance was more imposing than the others, with eyes and with a mouth that spoke words of arrogance. 21 As I watched, this horn was waging war against the saints and prevailing against them, [...]
[...]
25 He will speak out against the Most High and oppress the saints of the Most High, intending to change the appointed times and laws; and the saints will be given into his hand for a time, and times, and half a time.
[v.27 thereafter showing the END of the trib; the above and verse 25 showing the mid-point to the end-point (i.e. "the second half of the 7-yr trib")]
... ^ corresponding with Revelation 13:5-7 (beast was given a "mouth"... "was given unto him to make war with the saints and to overcome them"... and then see v.15b-16 "[second beast] cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. And he causeth all... to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads..." [Rev20:4 informs us that not all do receive it, and many are KILLED due to this])...so that,
this "prevailed against [the saints]" is what is taking place IN/DURING the trib yrs (primarily the second half), and this does not pertain to "the Church which is His body" (we are not awaiting a future 7-yr period in order to experience such/persecutions... the persecution of "the Church which is His body" has been taking place ever since its existence on the earth in [and since] the first century! see 2Th1:4, for example); the above-mentioned passages take place in the specific, limited, future time period (FOLLOWING "our Rapture/Departure"), and pertain specifically to the "saints" of that time period [having come to faith WITHIN/IN/DURING the trib yrs, FOLLOWING our Rapture/Departure], that future, specific, limited time-period which leads UP TO His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom
[Dan7:27 following the specific time-period referenced in v.25 (second-half trib), just before this v.27 END]
Daniel 7:20-21,25[27] -
20 I also wanted to know about the ten horns on its head and the other horn that came up, before which three of them fell—the horn whose appearance was more imposing than the others, with eyes and with a mouth that spoke words of arrogance. 21 As I watched, this horn was waging war against the saints and prevailing against them, [...]
[...]
25 He will speak out against the Most High and oppress the saints of the Most High, intending to change the appointed times and laws; and the saints will be given into his hand for a time, and times, and half a time.
[v.27 thereafter showing the END of the trib; the above and verse 25 showing the mid-point to the end-point (i.e. "the second half of the 7-yr trib")]
... ^ corresponding with Revelation 13:5-7 (beast was given a "mouth"... "was given unto him to make war with the saints and to overcome them"... and then see v.15b-16 "[second beast] cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. And he causeth all... to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads..." [Rev20:4 informs us that not all do receive it, and many are KILLED due to this])...so that,
this "prevailed against [the saints]" is what is taking place IN/DURING the trib yrs (primarily the second half), and this does not pertain to "the Church which is His body" (we are not awaiting a future 7-yr period in order to experience such/persecutions... the persecution of "the Church which is His body" has been taking place ever since its existence on the earth in [and since] the first century! see 2Th1:4, for example); the above-mentioned passages take place in the specific, limited, future time period (FOLLOWING "our Rapture/Departure"), and pertain specifically to the "saints" of that time period [having come to faith WITHIN/IN/DURING the trib yrs, FOLLOWING our Rapture/Departure], that future, specific, limited time-period which leads UP TO His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom
[Dan7:27 following the specific time-period referenced in v.25 (second-half trib), just before this v.27 END]
I do admit it is hard to follow your points with the break in other scriptures dividing. I'll just say then, OK.
meaning, the "mouth" and the "make war with the saints and overcome them" [/"prevail against them" in Dan7] (and later in the Rev13 passage [vv.15b-16] "kill" those who do not receive the mark that the beast implements)?
Any connection, in your view?
Depends on what you mean by "perish"... (whether you mean "physical death," or "eternal separation from God")... If you mean "physical death," I'll tell why...
1) I see the passages as parallel
2) I mentioned how those in Rev13, and chpt 20:4b, that the latter of these two is showing those [saints] in the trib who did NOT take the mark, and were beheaded (or otherwise matryred / killed / or DIE) in the latter half of the trib years; and it is these that 20:4b is saying "and they lived [same word as in Rev2:8 re: Jesus] and reigned with Christ 1000 years" (<--and in view of the following verse, which states, "but the rest of the dead lived NOT again until the 1000 years were completed.")
Of course, I believe the ones in Rev20:4b are SAINTS/SAVED persons [now "resurrected," in this context, to reign with Christ 1000 years]
I do not believe ALL "saints" of the tribulation period "die" (per many passages I've listed before, including Daniel 12:12... and the Olivet Discourse and its parallels... and Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44; Lk19:12,15,17,19, etc... too numerous to list here)
1) I see the passages as parallel
2) I mentioned how those in Rev13, and chpt 20:4b, that the latter of these two is showing those [saints] in the trib who did NOT take the mark, and were beheaded (or otherwise matryred / killed / or DIE) in the latter half of the trib years; and it is these that 20:4b is saying "and they lived [same word as in Rev2:8 re: Jesus] and reigned with Christ 1000 years" (<--and in view of the following verse, which states, "but the rest of the dead lived NOT again until the 1000 years were completed.")
Of course, I believe the ones in Rev20:4b are SAINTS/SAVED persons [now "resurrected," in this context, to reign with Christ 1000 years]
I do not believe ALL "saints" of the tribulation period "die" (per many passages I've listed before, including Daniel 12:12... and the Olivet Discourse and its parallels... and Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44; Lk19:12,15,17,19, etc... too numerous to list here)
Not even "the dead in Christ" who shall "rise first"?... and what about where Jesus had said, in John 11:25-26, "though he may die YET SHALL HE LIVE" (because, HE said, "I AM the RESURRECTION" in addition to saying also "I AM the LIFE").
I think I know what you are trying to say... but my point would be with regard to "resurrection" (only those who "die" will experience the "bodily/physical resurrection [to stand again on the earth]"). I could also mention the TWO aspects of 1Cor15:51-54 ("this corruptible" is the saints who've DIED; and "this mortality" is those saints still-living at the time referenced [same as 2Cor5:2-4!])
It sounds as though you are taking the Amillennialist-teachings' position... is that close to being accurate?
I think I know what you are trying to say... but my point would be with regard to "resurrection" (only those who "die" will experience the "bodily/physical resurrection [to stand again on the earth]"). I could also mention the TWO aspects of 1Cor15:51-54 ("this corruptible" is the saints who've DIED; and "this mortality" is those saints still-living at the time referenced [same as 2Cor5:2-4!])
It sounds as though you are taking the Amillennialist-teachings' position... is that close to being accurate?
No it is not.
I am taking God's position to this discussion.
I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living (Matthew 22:32).
Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7)
For we know that if our earthly house, this tent is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed, we shall not be found naked. . . We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:1,2,8).
I am taking God's position to this discussion.
I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living (Matthew 22:32).
Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7)
For we know that if our earthly house, this tent is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed, we shall not be found naked. . . We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:1,2,8).
We should understand what points Paul is making in 2Cor5 (vv.1-8 CONTEXT, and esp vv.2-4):
--"unclothed" is the same as saying "absent from the body [though present with the Lord]," that is, upon DEATH (of the believer [any member of "the Church which is His body"])
--"clothed upon" is saying [basically] "to be clothed upon with our glorified bodies APART FROM having to DIE first" (that is, IMMEDIATELY being "changed" without DYING first...[this ONLY will happen at a particular POINT in time!])
This ( ^ second bullet point) is what "that MORTALITY might be swallowed up OF LIFE" and <--this correlates with 1Cor15:53b ["this MORTAL"] and v.54b ["this MORTAL"], THAT part of "the Church which is His body" who are the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto..." [the "STILL-LIVING"] (not the part of the Body who are "the DEAD IN Christ" who shall "rise first" before we are "caught up together [AS ONE (the 'ONE BODY')]"
--"unclothed" is the same as saying "absent from the body [though present with the Lord]," that is, upon DEATH (of the believer [any member of "the Church which is His body"])
--"clothed upon" is saying [basically] "to be clothed upon with our glorified bodies APART FROM having to DIE first" (that is, IMMEDIATELY being "changed" without DYING first...[this ONLY will happen at a particular POINT in time!])
This ( ^ second bullet point) is what "that MORTALITY might be swallowed up OF LIFE" and <--this correlates with 1Cor15:53b ["this MORTAL"] and v.54b ["this MORTAL"], THAT part of "the Church which is His body" who are the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto..." [the "STILL-LIVING"] (not the part of the Body who are "the DEAD IN Christ" who shall "rise first" before we are "caught up together [AS ONE (the 'ONE BODY')]"
-
1
- Show all
