Total Depravity
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No His will is not thwarted.
I will leave it there, since one can hold to there being the condition of faith and still agree that God's will is not denied nor thwarted.
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9
I will leave it there, since one can hold to there being the condition of faith and still agree that God's will is not denied nor thwarted.
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9
Note the "being not baptized of him"
Simple rejection of God isn't what I'm asking about: that's the natural state of mankind. But it was said, God may reach into our heart and change it towards accepting and running to Him, but that isn't equivalent to salvation.
So is there some example where a person's heart is supernaturally changed by God, but they then overcome God's will and supernatural work, and undo the change God made in them?
Simple rejection of God isn't what I'm asking about: that's the natural state of mankind. But it was said, God may reach into our heart and change it towards accepting and running to Him, but that isn't equivalent to salvation.
So is there some example where a person's heart is supernaturally changed by God, but they then overcome God's will and supernatural work, and undo the change God made in them?
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I do not want to assume I know what you think the Calvinist version of TD is. You can see part of
my take on TD here (<= link). And I have said numerous times, depravity is not just presented in
Calvinism, but also Molinsm and Arminianism, which many seem to refuse to deal with.
DAISY affirms that God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe.
That gets argued with, too.
my take on TD here (<= link). And I have said numerous times, depravity is not just presented in
Calvinism, but also Molinsm and Arminianism, which many seem to refuse to deal with.
DAISY affirms that God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe.
That gets argued with, too.
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The Philippian jailer inquired,
“What must I do to be saved?” (Acts 16:30).
If Paul was Calvinistic he should have replied, “You can do nothing to be saved. You were born corpse-like dead in your sin and a dead man can do nothing. If God makes you alive then you will be convinced to believe our gospel.” But Paul does not hesitate to simply say, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved” (Acts 16:31).
Believe so as to have new life. Repent so as to live! That is the gospel appeal sent for all to hear it and respond.
Calvinists teach the word of truth will certainly be rejected by the unregenerate, thus how can the apostle say that the word may be the means of new birth? Birth must precede the word if Calvinism is true, and that is not what the text clearly indicates.
(soteriology101, L. Flowers)
“What must I do to be saved?” (Acts 16:30).
If Paul was Calvinistic he should have replied, “You can do nothing to be saved. You were born corpse-like dead in your sin and a dead man can do nothing. If God makes you alive then you will be convinced to believe our gospel.” But Paul does not hesitate to simply say, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved” (Acts 16:31).
Believe so as to have new life. Repent so as to live! That is the gospel appeal sent for all to hear it and respond.
Calvinists teach the word of truth will certainly be rejected by the unregenerate, thus how can the apostle say that the word may be the means of new birth? Birth must precede the word if Calvinism is true, and that is not what the text clearly indicates.
(soteriology101, L. Flowers)
Depravity in my view does not teach helplessly depraved the way I take you to mean it.
Can you show me using Scripture that Cornelius was not already saved? Was the pouring out
of the Holy Spirit not a demonstration to show Peter that God had opened the way to Gentiles?
Does that necessarily mean he did not already have the Holy Spirit? Or that his heart was not
circumcised? Do you believe Cornelius was a still a natural man in all aspects?
Can you show me using Scripture that Cornelius was not already saved? Was the pouring out
of the Holy Spirit not a demonstration to show Peter that God had opened the way to Gentiles?
Does that necessarily mean he did not already have the Holy Spirit? Or that his heart was not
circumcised? Do you believe Cornelius was a still a natural man in all aspects?
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I can show he wasn't already saved yes.
Peter tells the story of what happened in Acts 11:13-14:
He told us how he had seen an angel appear in his house and say, ‘Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter. He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.’
They will be saved thru the message Peter brought, not prior to it!
The reason why Peter was sent to Cornelius was because he was a just man and God had heard his prayers and his alms have come to God's knowledge, he was a God-fearing gentile, respected among the jews as well I would presume.
God wanted to get this man saved, and He did, He sent Peter. This also served as a lesson to Peter that God is in the business of saving Gentiles, it also served as a lesson for everyone that God doesn't show favoritism but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.
Some of the gentiles in the churches that Paul is writing to were these "God-fearing gentiles" that were hanging around the jews and learning alot from them, but just didn't officially convert to judaism. They were the first ones to convert, why? Because they were already "taught by the Father" in that sense, so to them, accepting Christ was just something that naturally followed. Same for the apostles and all the jews who were already part of the remnant of Israel, its near guarantee they will believe in Jesus, the scribes and pharisees? Not as likely.
Peter tells the story of what happened in Acts 11:13-14:
He told us how he had seen an angel appear in his house and say, ‘Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter. He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.’
They will be saved thru the message Peter brought, not prior to it!
The reason why Peter was sent to Cornelius was because he was a just man and God had heard his prayers and his alms have come to God's knowledge, he was a God-fearing gentile, respected among the jews as well I would presume.
God wanted to get this man saved, and He did, He sent Peter. This also served as a lesson to Peter that God is in the business of saving Gentiles, it also served as a lesson for everyone that God doesn't show favoritism but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.
Some of the gentiles in the churches that Paul is writing to were these "God-fearing gentiles" that were hanging around the jews and learning alot from them, but just didn't officially convert to judaism. They were the first ones to convert, why? Because they were already "taught by the Father" in that sense, so to them, accepting Christ was just something that naturally followed. Same for the apostles and all the jews who were already part of the remnant of Israel, its near guarantee they will believe in Jesus, the scribes and pharisees? Not as likely.
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That part I would agree with DAISY with. And I believe its simply biblical. My proof?
Titus 2:11
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
Thats where I lose touch with the reformed. God says: ALL MEN, every man, world, not ours only but of the whole world, savior of the world, especially of those that believe.
How many different ways can God say it? Why wont the reformed believe that God's grace has appeared to all men??
Titus 2:11
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
Thats where I lose touch with the reformed. God says: ALL MEN, every man, world, not ours only but of the whole world, savior of the world, especially of those that believe.
How many different ways can God say it? Why wont the reformed believe that God's grace has appeared to all men??
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I think it is fear when it comes down to it, They say that if we are saved by faith we earned it.. and that would be a false gospel. so they are afraid of getting it wrong..
I think it also makes them angry, when they are told they are wrong in this thinking, because I think deep inside. it is being shown to them, and we do not like to admit we are wrong.
I think it also makes them angry, when they are told they are wrong in this thinking, because I think deep inside. it is being shown to them, and we do not like to admit we are wrong.
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unfortunately no, because even if we presume it is a genuine supernatural salvation experience, the counterargument is ((z.b. 1 Cor 3:15)) that those warnings speak of a loss of glory and reward, not of salvation.
salvation which can be lost isn't actually salvation - it's only an illusion of salvation, a hope without basis, waiting to be revealed as damnation.
salvation which can be lost isn't actually salvation - it's only an illusion of salvation, a hope without basis, waiting to be revealed as damnation.
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Perhaps consider the traditional and correct understanding of scripture.
Non-Calvinistic (Traditionalist) Approach:
Apart from God’s gracious initiative in bringing His Son, the Holy Spirit, and the inspired gospel appeal, no one can merit salvation or consistently seek to obey God in a way that will attain his own righteousness.
Non-Calvinistic (Traditionalist) Approach:
Apart from God’s gracious initiative in bringing His Son, the Holy Spirit, and the inspired gospel appeal, no one can merit salvation or consistently seek to obey God in a way that will attain his own righteousness.
Not sure it's a proper use of the term to say anti-Augustine, anti-orthodoxy is "traditionalism"
Let them read the epistle which we wrote about twelve years ago to that holy man Bishop Paulinus: its subject throughout in some three hundred lines is the confession of God’s grace and assistance alone, and our own inability to do any good thing at all without God.
Pelagius, 'Letter to Innocent I'
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Needless to say, the Bible certainly treats fallen men as if they are genuinely responsible (response-able) to His appeals and offers of grace and forgiveness.
On what basis do Calvinists rest their presumption that, as a consequence of the sin of another, God has decreed that all mankind would be born with “Total Inability” to respond willingly to the gospel?
(soteriology 101)
Answer: God makes no such decree, it is instead eisegesis.
On what basis do Calvinists rest their presumption that, as a consequence of the sin of another, God has decreed that all mankind would be born with “Total Inability” to respond willingly to the gospel?
(soteriology 101)
Answer: God makes no such decree, it is instead eisegesis.
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