TONGUES false teaching.

[CS1]

Instead of accusations toward me, why not take the time to post why what I have said is not Biblical????

To say anyone is wrong and not explain WHY is incomprehensible!

That makes what you said simply your opinion.

I did you do not accept it ")

 

[SophieT]

I gave that up a long time ago.

Oh heck yeah.

 

[CS1]

Just a moment please. I agree with most everything except the opening line. Corinth was in Greece. The majority of Corinthians were Gentiles. Paul wrote in Greek to them. Paul being a former Pharisee, Surely Could write Hebrew & probably Aramaic too.

Would you please edify us??

you are right my point is those who use the Greek to overly control the context without keeping the full narrative intact. ONE word in Greek used incorrectly can change the context. This is what has happened with those who try to suggest that 1cor 13:10 is somehow meaning the canonization of the Bible when " that which is perfect has come". If that doesn't work as some have already said " 1cor 12 :1 " was added. But even if you remove verse one of chapter twelve the rest of the next 8 verses can be allegorized which is an error in biblical interpretation. The Hebrew translation deals with the heart of man, more than the Greek does which is more of the intellect.

I am not saying the Greek translation is wrong I am saying those who use one word in the Bible go to the " Greek " and misuse the systematic range meaning of a word. Paul was also a Greek-speaking Jew who also taught out of the Septuagint a greek translated Old Testament. The Corinthians were in Greece as you said trying to learn about a Jewish Messiah from a Hebrew translation. Did the Greek Christians have to relearn the mind-set from the greek to Hebrew transitions or from the Hebrew to Greek?

Did Paul and the other Apostles teach a " Greek Christ" or a Hebrew one? To understand Jesus we need the Hebrew too.

 

[Subhumanoidal]

As a teen i was saved into a Pentecostal/Assemblies of God church (after being raised Baptist). I even fell into other friends, outside church, that were Pentecostal.
So naturally I got in line to accept the concept of tongues put forth in such churches. After some time I finally "received the gift of tongues".
And I remember the night that happened. It was unplanned, and the group i was with actually made me fearful with all the unusual "manifestations of the Holy Spirit". My church also sometimes gave me the creeps for the same reason.
Long story short after being involved in this idea for some time I was reading my Bible and learned that what was going on inside my church and among my other friends was in opposition to what the Bible taught on tongues.
After some time processing and thinking on this I gave up the idea of what I was being taught tongues were.
Even as a new believer and a younger teen it was plain as day all the people and churches engaging in this were in complete opposition to the biblical teachings on tongues. And I was astonished that so many people blatantly ignored the bible. And still do.

Now I am not going to claim that all tongues are false, but what we see in most churches is clearly not of God as it goes against the Bible.

 

[calibob]

you are right my point is those who use the Greek to overly control the context without keeping the full narrative intact. ONE word in Greek used incorrectly can change the context. This is what has happened with those who try to suggest that 1cor 13:10 is somehow meaning the canonization of the Bible when " that which is perfect has come". If that doesn't work as some have already said " 1cor 12 :1 " was added. But even if you remove verse one of chapter twelve the rest of the next 8 verses can be allegorized which is an error in biblical interpretation. The Hebrew translation deals with the heart of man, more than the Greek does which is more of the intellect.

I am not saying the Greek translation is wrong I am saying those who use one word in the Bible go to the " Greek " and misuse the systematic range meaning of a word. Paul was also a Greek-speaking Jew who also taught out of the Septuagint a greek translated Old Testament. The Corinthians were in Greece as you said trying to learn about a Jewish Messiah from a Hebrew translation. Did the Greek Christians have to relearn the mind-set from the greek to Hebrew transitions or from the Hebrew to Greek?

Did Paul and the other Apostles teach a " Greek Christ" or a Hebrew one? To understand Jesus we need the Hebrew too.

Thanks for clearing it up. Of course I knew that Paul understood Greek fluently. He even wrote Romans in Greek, not Latin. It goes without saying that he was highly educated with abroad range of linguistics skills.

 

[Sipsey]

Do Angels actually have a separate language? I cannot find any verse in Scripture where they spoke anything other than understandable words to those present.

 

[presidente]

I don't know why you wish to continue this line of arguement. I didn't say that there is or is not tongues of angels. What I said is that passage does not establish the concept as doctrine.

II Timothy 3 says all scripture is profitable for doctrine.

Paul suggests the possibility of speaking in tongues of angels, so we should not rule out the possibility. Those who insist that tongues must be human languages are 1) asserting something not taught in scripture and 2) asserting something that does not line up with I Corinthians 13:1.

Whether Paul spoke in tongues of angels, I do not know.

 

[presidente]

As a teen i was saved into a Pentecostal/Assemblies of God church (after being raised Baptist). I even fell into other friends, outside church, that were Pentecostal.
So naturally I got in line to accept the concept of tongues put forth in such churches. After some time I finally "received the gift of tongues".
And I remember the night that happened. It was unplanned, and the group i was with actually made me fearful with all the unusual "manifestations of the Holy Spirit". My church also sometimes gave me the creeps for the same reason.
Long story short after being involved in this idea for some time I was reading my Bible and learned that what was going on inside my church and among my other friends was in opposition to what the Bible taught on tongues.
After some time processing and thinking on this I gave up the idea of what I was being taught tongues were.
Even as a new believer and a younger teen it was plain as day all the people and churches engaging in this were in complete opposition to the biblical teachings on tongues. And I was astonished that so many people blatantly ignored the bible. And still do.

Now I am not going to claim that all tongues are false, but what we see in most churches is clearly not of God as it goes against the Bible.

An Assemblies of God I went to as a teenager taught against speaking out in tongues in church without interpretation. Others that I went to in practice had interpretation after messages in tongues, not tongues all at the same time. Apparently, based on conversations on A/G forums, that may be a minority opinion in the denomination, or else there is variation. The A/Gs I went to overseas did not have speaking in tongues en masse like some of the Charismatics did.

The Corinthians had genuine speaking in tongues, but they were doing it out of order. Is it wise to say that it is 'not of God.' The disorder is not, but the gift may be. We are to be good stewards of the manifold grace of God, as Peter put it.

 

[presidente]

Do Angels actually have a separate language? I cannot find any verse in Scripture where they spoke anything other than understandable words to those present.

Can you find any examples where angels were speaking to other angels, with no humans present to hear and understand?

I cannot find any examples of donkeys communicating except one speaking in a human language in the Bible.

 

[Blackpowderduelist]

II Timothy 3 says all scripture is profitable for doctrine.

Paul suggests the possibility of speaking in tongues of angels, so we should not rule out the possibility. Those who insist that tongues must be human languages are 1) asserting something not taught in scripture and 2) asserting something that does not line up with I Corinthians 13:1.

Whether Paul spoke in tongues of angels, I do not know.

I didn't say that the passage does not assert or establish any doctrine either.
In fact I have a doctrine that it does in fact establish. I guess ill repeat myself being that you don't see to be understanding.
What it does establish as doctrine is that if you speak in tongues of any type with out love you are just making noise.
Neither do I say it is impossible that there is an angelic language nor did I say that it is impossible that men be gifted to speak so. I said this passage does not establish that as a doctrine.
Nor does this passage establish as doctrine that all tongues must be a human language. Why do you insist on imposing upon me things that I did not say or even imply?

"Whether Paul spoke in tongues of angels, I do not know." Finally wow!

 

[presidente]

I didn't say that the passage does not assert or establish any doctrine either.
In fact I have a doctrine that it does in fact establish. I guess ill repeat myself being that you don't see to be understanding.
What it does establish as doctrine is that if you speak in tongues of any type with out love you are just making noise.
Neither do I say it is impossible that there is an angelic language nor did I say that it is impossible that men be gifted to speak so. I said this passage does not establish that as a doctrine.
Nor does this passage establish as doctrine that all tongues must be a human language. Why do you insist on imposing upon me things that I did not say or even imply?

"Whether Paul spoke in tongues of angels, I do not know." Finally wow!

If you will notice, I did not state you held to those opinions on the matter. Actually, I think we may be in agreement on this.

 

[Blackpowderduelist]

I am convinced by what I have witnessed that what is called speaking in tongues by the charismatic churches (now I know why that one guy capitalizes so much)
(By what I have witnessed myself.) Is in deed not speaking in tongues of any kind.
By what I have seen and heard with my own eyes and ears; the Pentecostal/charismatic understanding of speaking in tongues is not what is written about in scripture.
What I have witnessed has without fail been followed with false prophesying, and or false teaching.

This in no way determines that the gift is no longer in action. I have not witnessed everyone or every church.

 

[Blackpowderduelist]

I don't accept false prophecy as human error.
Sure a pastor can by mistake misinterpreted or misunderstand a passage of scripture, so can anyone.
Anyone can error and commit sin, this does not make every word one has spoken void. Nor does it make them a false teacher.
However, if you or anyone prophesy and it is wrong, who ever utters the false prophecy is a false prophet.

 

[Sipsey]

Can you find any examples where angels were speaking to other angels, with no humans present to hear and understand?

I cannot find any examples of donkeys communicating except one speaking in a human language in the Bible.

that doesn’t quite work as a solution.

 

[UCA4J]

In the times in which the Epistles were written society was quite different. It was considered rude and offensive for a woman to speak in church or anywhere else if there were men present to speak for them. Look into the women in the book of Judges. They acted shy but they weren't.

And we find from Church history that the primitive Christians thus understood it; for that women did actually speak and preach amongst them we have indisputable proof.

If Christ cannot supersede the Law, then I am lost, and lost forever.
Catherine Booth

Catherine booth, of the salvo's ? Pffft.

 

[Ahwatukee]

@Scribe @Ahwatukee @JaumeJ @Magenta @EleventhHour @posthuman @seoulsearch @TabinRivCA @tanakh @tourist @up @zeroturbulence and anyone else following or stumbles onto this thread.

Please pardon me for the distraction. Lately and old enemy has resurfaced insidiously. It's been bothering for a couple of years but it was more of an irritating distraction rather than something trying to take over overtly. It's name is Cultism. We've had many disputes as of late but I didn't recognize the real enemy till this week.

Before I got saved I was surrounded by religious nonsense. Many folks around me quoted the Pope, Brigham Young, Joseph Smith, Mary Baker Eddy, L. Ron Hubbard...Let's not leave out Billy Graham, Jimmy Swaggart & Oral Roberts. I couldn't tell the difference. The list seemed to never end. They (Those that tried to convert or reconvert me) all had special books and wanna be prophets (some even had TV shows) and of course they were the only one's right. I made a decision to stop listening to what others had to say and reading their propaganda tracts, Watchtower, Book of Mormon etc. and Just stick to the Bible. I was Sola Scriptura before I ever heard of it.

I made that decision in the late 70's against most wannabe and some true Christians advice. I was told that I needed to submit to an authority, a church a pastor... I That I would go to hell or die because of my rebellion. Bla, bla bla. The result was I think that I did better than most by studying the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, God help me please. HE DID!

As most of you already know I've gotten very involved with some churches. Gotten a little education, worked for charities' and so on. I had an adult Sunday School Teacher named WALTER MARTIN.

He was fondly and respectfully known as "the father of Christian cult apologetics." Many current professional and academic cult apologists credit him with their introduction to the field. He held four earned degrees, having received his Doctorate from California Coast University in the field of Comparative Religions. Author of a dozen books, a half-dozen booklets, and many articles, he was known nationwide as "The Bible Answer Man," host of one of the oldest and most popular nationally syndicated call-in radio programs. He was founder and director of the Christian Research Institute, located in Southern California, which continues to provide cult apologetics information and to sponsor the ever-popular Bible Answer Man daily broadcast.

Fast forward; 2018, I joined Christian Chat. I quickly made some friends, which I still consider friends (though some have left) and a few enemies. Mainly unforgiving Law givers, Judaizers, wannabe Pharisees and hardcore homophobes that seem to think that Homosexuality is near equal to blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, but other forms of adultery are more forgivable. Then came the Calvinists quickly followed by the "Ye Must Speak in Tongues and prove that ye are saved" Pentecostal extremists, that we were just talking about here, before I butted in. The Trumpkins also are/have developed into a sub cult. Several on CC don't realize that they are in it yet. We here on CC are always getting questions about Islam, LDS & JW's as well as others.

I've recently downloaded a revised (PDF) version of Dr. Martins book "Kingdom of the Cults" and I'm currently looking for the ear markings and methods of cults in order to identify, categorize and witness to them.

Not all cultists are antichrists or Occult related and we shouldn't hate them, rather help them if we can. Remember while there's usually less than 60 of us participating on CC (according to the sidebar) there may be thousands watching. I'm thinking of starting a new Cult Studies thread on the Miscellaneous Forum. I don't want to start alone. Would anybody like to join or help me?

This would not be a ministry for the short tempered, judgmental or hard hearted. That describes who we'll be dealing with. (I'm glad Dcon's not here for this now)

P.S. I have testimonies on the bottom of the forums list if anybody wants to look and the CRA, Christians in Recovery Anonymous on the Misc. Forum too. (if you want to look or share)

Praise God for your desire for the truth! I think that it is paramount for everyone to depend on their own personal studies in the word of God, so that we can discern the truth from all of the false teachings that are out there.

God bless you brother!

 

[Sipsey]

@Scribe @Ahwatukee @JaumeJ @Magenta @EleventhHour @posthuman @seoulsearch @TabinRivCA @tanakh @tourist @up @zeroturbulence and anyone else following or stumbles onto this thread.

Please pardon me for the distraction. Lately and old enemy has resurfaced insidiously. It's been bothering for a couple of years but it was more of an irritating distraction rather than something trying to take over overtly. It's name is Cultism. We've had many disputes as of late but I didn't recognize the real enemy till this week.

Before I got saved I was surrounded by religious nonsense. Many folks around me quoted the Pope, Brigham Young, Joseph Smith, Mary Baker Eddy, L. Ron Hubbard...Let's not leave out Billy Graham, Jimmy Swaggart & Oral Roberts. I couldn't tell the difference. The list seemed to never end. They (Those that tried to convert or reconvert me) all had special books and wanna be prophets (some even had TV shows) and of course they were the only one's right. I made a decision to stop listening to what others had to say and reading their propaganda tracts, Watchtower, Book of Mormon etc. and Just stick to the Bible. I was Sola Scriptura before I ever heard of it.

I made that decision in the late 70's against most wannabe and some true Christians advice. I was told that I needed to submit to an authority, a church a pastor... I That I would go to hell or die because of my rebellion. Bla, bla bla. The result was I think that I did better than most by studying the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, God help me please. HE DID!

As most of you already know I've gotten very involved with some churches. Gotten a little education, worked for charities' and so on. I had an adult Sunday School Teacher named WALTER MARTIN.

He was fondly and respectfully known as "the father of Christian cult apologetics." Many current professional and academic cult apologists credit him with their introduction to the field. He held four earned degrees, having received his Doctorate from California Coast University in the field of Comparative Religions. Author of a dozen books, a half-dozen booklets, and many articles, he was known nationwide as "The Bible Answer Man," host of one of the oldest and most popular nationally syndicated call-in radio programs. He was founder and director of the Christian Research Institute, located in Southern California, which continues to provide cult apologetics information and to sponsor the ever-popular Bible Answer Man daily broadcast.

Fast forward; 2018, I joined Christian Chat. I quickly made some friends, which I still consider friends (though some have left) and a few enemies. Mainly unforgiving Law givers, Judaizers, wannabe Pharisees and hardcore homophobes that seem to think that Homosexuality is near equal to blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, but other forms of adultery are more forgivable. Then came the Calvinists quickly followed by the "Ye Must Speak in Tongues and prove that ye are saved" Pentecostal extremists, that we were just talking about here, before I butted in. The Trumpkins also are/have developed into a sub cult. Several on CC don't realize that they are in it yet. We here on CC are always getting questions about Islam, LDS & JW's as well as others.

I've recently downloaded a revised (PDF) version of Dr. Martins book "Kingdom of the Cults" and I'm currently looking for the ear markings and methods of cults in order to identify, categorize and witness to them.

Not all cultists are antichrists or Occult related and we shouldn't hate them, rather help them if we can. Remember while there's usually less than 60 of us participating on CC (according to the sidebar) there may be thousands watching. I'm thinking of starting a new Cult Studies thread on the Miscellaneous Forum. I don't want to start alone. Would anybody like to join or help me?

This would not be a ministry for the short tempered, judgmental or hard hearted. That describes who we'll be dealing with. (I'm glad Dcon's not here for this now)

P.S. I have testimonies on the bottom of the forums list if anybody wants to look and the CRA, Christians in Recovery Anonymous on the Misc. Forum too. (if you want to look or share)

I consider my copy of Dr. Martins book as worthy of my top shelf. I read and reread it several years back. Might be I need to open up again.

 

[Lanolin]

Major you sure seem to talk a LOT for someone who doesnt like tongues.
Thankfully I can speak english and understand you, (kind of, well, not really) but for anyone else, who doesnt, it could be nonsense and gibberish for all they know.

 

[Lanolin]

Kingdom of cults was an old 1960s book, it probably doesnt cover the newest bible cults like NAR and Bethel.

 

[tourist]

What is the point of speaking in tongues if no one understands what is said. Even Paul said that there should be an interpreter otherwise it is just a bunch of gibberish. This is not a gift that I would pray for because it seems that no one benefits.