To keep the law of Moses, you must obey Jesus

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lrs68

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#61
You ignore that he mostly taught about the old covenant because he lived in a time before the new covenant was in force.
Jesus taught about the Kingdom of God at hand which is for every human being.
 

ewq1938

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#63
Jesus taught about the Kingdom of God at hand which is for every human being.

The kingdom was spiritually within believers but would not be literally in this world until the second coming. Jesus said satan was teh ruler of this world until that coming.
 

Inquisitor

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Mar 17, 2022
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#64
No, Jesus taught about the Kingdom of God at hand which is for every human being.
Matthew 15:24
But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Are you saying that Jesus was sent to the Gentiles?

What your missing is that the Gentiles would be grafted in to the kingdom later on.
 

lrs68

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#65
The kingdom was spiritually within believers but would not be literally in this world until the second coming. Jesus said satan was teh ruler of this world until that coming.
You can dance, sing, and shout but one truth exists and it was Jesus preaching the Kingdom of God is at hand.
 

lrs68

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#66
Matthew 15:24
But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Are you saying that Jesus was sent to the Gentiles?

What your missing is that the Gentiles would be grafted in to the kingdom later on.
In John 10:16, Jesus says, "I have other sheep that are not from this sheep pen; I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. Then there will be one flock, one shepherd.
 

ewq1938

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#67
You can dance, sing, and shout but one truth exists and it was Jesus preaching the Kingdom of God is at hand.
And arrives far in the future:

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


So, there is a day coming that people will come to Christ and claim they have the right to enter the Kingdom but he will refuse them. The kingdom is in the future according to this.



Matthew 13:45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:
Matthew 13:46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.
Matthew 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
Matthew 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
Matthew 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Matthew 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 13:51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.


Have you understood these things? The Kingdom comes "at the end of the world" when there shall be a separation of the good and bad. The bad will be destroyed. The Kingdom is being likened to judgement, where the wicked die and the just will receive eternal life!
 

lrs68

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#68
And arrives far in the future:

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


So, there is a day coming that people will come to Christ and claim they have the right to enter the Kingdom but he will refuse them. The kingdom is in the future according to this.



Matthew 13:45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:
Matthew 13:46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.
Matthew 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
Matthew 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
Matthew 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Matthew 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 13:51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.


Have you understood these things? The Kingdom comes "at the end of the world" when there shall be a separation of the good and bad. The bad will be destroyed. The Kingdom is being likened to judgement, where the wicked die and the just will receive eternal life!
Matthew 7:21, John 6:40, and other passages explain the WILL of the FATHER is to believe in Jesus and be obedient.

In our conversation among a couple threads you feel that obedience is to the Law. But if it's the Father's Will then you better be doing it.
 

ewq1938

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Oct 18, 2018
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#69
Matthew 7:21, John 6:40, and other passages explain the WILL of the FATHER is to believe in Jesus and be obedient.

In our conversation among a couple threads you feel that obedience is to the Law. But if it's the Father's Will then you better be doing it.

Entering kingdom of God is in the future, at the end of the world according to scripture.
 

Soyeong

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Oct 11, 2023
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#70
Moses Law = obey Jesus?
Indeed, obeying God’s word is the way to obey God’s word made flesh. In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Mosaic Law is how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom. Jesus also set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6), so Jesus spent his ministry graciously teaching how to obey the Mosaic Law by word and by example.

Precious friend, you do realize of course, that we, Today, Under Grace, are Not "under
The Law" But, Under GRACE? And, Furthermore, Paul, our GRACE apostle, states:

"Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient,"... (1 Timothy 1:9-11 AV) righteous are Under GRACE, Correct?:​
+​
"...ye are not under the law, but Under GRACE." (Romans 6:14 AV)​

More Biblical info is here:

I have decided to follow Jesus?

Which for you, precious friend?

Amen.
The Mosaic Law leads us to do what is holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12) while the law of sin leads us in the opposite direction by stirring up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death. In Romans 6:14, is describes the law that we are not under as being a law where sin had dominion over us, which does not describe the Mosaic Law, but rather that is the role of the law of sin. In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Mosaic Law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and ink way of salvation by grace through faith, this is what it means to be under grace, and this is why Romans 6:15 says that being under grace does not mean that we are permitted to sin, so we are still under it, but are not under the law of sin.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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#71
Indeed, obeying God’s word is the way to obey God’s word made flesh.
That's conveniently circular.

The Mosaic Law leads us to do what is holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12) while the law of sin leads us in the opposite direction by stirring up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death.
You need to read the rest of Romans 7, including this part from verses 7b-10:

"Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. 9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death."

It is clear that "the law of sin" is the Mosaic law.
 

Soyeong

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#72
Jesus said to keep the law of Moses but this was during the time when the first covenant was still in effect. It doesn't apply under the second covenant which began at the death of Christ on the cross.
Jesus did not establish the New Covenant in order to undermine anything that he spent his ministry teaching or so that we could be free to have the same lawlessness that caused the New Covenant to be needed in the first place, but rather the New Covenant still involves following the Mosaic Law (Jeremiah 31:33). In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem, us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are jealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in what Jesus spent his ministry teaching by word and by example and in what he accomplished through the cross is by repenting and becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law.

Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

Jesus will tell him how to get eternal life under the first covenant as a Jew:


Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Keep the commandments! That's how you obtained eternal life at that time.

Mat 19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
Mat 19:22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

This is if one wants to go above and beyond the minimum and be the best person possible in the name of God. Selling everything was not necessary to obtain eternal life as we have seen above.

Second confirmation:

Luk 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
Luk 10:26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
Luk 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
Luk 10:28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.



Under the second covenant, OT law keeping isn't the way to eternal life.

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Joh 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Jesus is the only way to eternal life now.
The New Covenant still supports obedience to the Mosaic Law as being the way to eternal life, such as in Romans 2:6-7, Paul said that those who persist in doing good will be given eternal life. In Hebrews 5:9, Jesus has become a source of eternal salvation for those who obey Him. In Revelation 22:14, those who obeyed God's commandments are given the right to eat from the Tree of Life. In Romans 6:19-23, we are no longer to present ourselves as slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin, but are now to present ourselves as slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification, and the goal of sanctification is eternal life in Christ, which is the gift of God, so being a doer of the Mosaic Law is God's gift of eternal life. The many verses that say that the way to eternal life is by obeying the Mosaic Law combined with the many verses that say that the way to have it is by believing in Jesus means that the Mosaic Law is God's instructions for how to believe in Jesus, which is why the Bible repeatedly connects our belief in God with our obedience to Him, such as in Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments.

Another way to put it is that the way to believe in God is by directing our lives towards being in His likeness through being a doer of His character traits. For example, by being a doe of good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law, we are testifying about God's goodness, which is why our good works bring glory to Him (Matthew 5:16), and by testifying about God's goodness we are also expressing the belief that God is good, or in other words, we are believing in Him. Likewise, the way to believe that God is just is by directing our lives towards being in His likeness by being a doer of justice, the way to believe that God is holy is by being a doer of His instructions for how to be holy as He is holy, and so forth. This is also exactly the same as the way to believe in the Son, who is the radiance of God's glory and the exact likeness of His character (Hebrews 1:3). In other words, God's word is His instructions for how to believe in God's word made flesh and God's word is not a different way to eternal life than God's word made flesh.
 

Soyeong

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#73
I am a Christian. The Law of Moses is not binding on someone who has died to the law in Christ (Rom. 7:6).

Still, the Law of Moses (including all 5 books of Moses) remains binding on all Israel until each of them individually believes in Jesus Christ, and dies to the law. One consequence of what I posted is that Judaism without Christ is actually breaking the Law of Moses, because it is refusing to obey the Prophet that God sent. Also, it is one possible explanation of the "one thing" that the rich young ruler lacked.
In Romans 7:22-23, Paul said that he delighted in obey the Law of God, but contrasted it with the law of sin that held him captive. It would be absurd to interpret Romans 7:5 as referring to the Law of God as if Paul delighted in stirring up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death, but rather that is the role of the law of sin. Likewise, it would be absurd to interpret Romans 7:6 as if Paul delighted in being held captive to sin, but rather it is the law of sin that he described as holding him captive. We need to die to the law of sin in order to be free to obey the Law of God, not the other way around.
 

ewq1938

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Oct 18, 2018
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#74
The New Covenant still supports obedience to the Mosaic Law

No, it doesn't. The old law is spoken about negatively, as sin and slavery. This is milk and Christianity 101 which means basic, entry level knowledge.

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law- Galatians 3:13

the law entangles with the yoke of bondage- Galatians 5:1

if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law - Galatians 5:18

the strength of sin is the law- 1 Corinthians 15:56

the law worketh wrath- Romans 4:15

we are not under the law- Romans 6:15

ye also are become dead to the law - Romans 7:4

we are delivered from the law- Romans 7:6

we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter- Romans 7:6

Jesus made us free from the law of sin and death- Romans 8:2
 

Soyeong

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Oct 11, 2023
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#75
That's what Jeremiah 31:33 states.

The old law is spoken about negatively, as sin and slavery.
The Psalms express an extremely positive view of the Mosaic Law, such as with David repeatedly saying that he loved it and delighted in obeying it, so if we consider the Psalms to be Scripture and to therefore express a correct view of obeying it, then we will also delight in obeying it. For example, in Psalms 1:1-2, blessed are those who delight in the Law of the Lord and who meditate on it day and night, so we can't believe in the truth of these words as Scripture while not allowing them to shape our view of obeying the Mosaic Law. Moreover, the NT authors considered the Psalms to be Scripture, so they should be interpreted as though they were in complete agreement with them, especially because Paul also said that he delighted in obeying it (Romans 7:22). Having a negative view of the Mosaic Law is incompatible with the view that the Psalms are Scripture and is expressing an equally negative view of the Lawgiver.

This is milk and Christianity 101 which means basic, entry level knowledge.
Christianity 101 should be that followers of God should follow His commands in accordance with the example that Jesus set for us to follow.

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law- Galatians 3:13
According to Deuteronomy 28, the blessing of the law is lawfulness while the curse of the law is lawlessness, so Jesus redeemed us from the curse of lawlessness so that we could be free to enjoy the blessing of lawfulness. In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to redeem us from the Law of God, but in order to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in what Jesus spent his ministry teaching by word and by example and in what he accomplished through the cross is by repenting and becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law (Acts 21:20).

the law entangles with the yoke of bondage- Galatians 5:1
If God saves the Israelites out of bondage in Egypt in order to put them under bondage to His law, then it would be for bondage that God sets us free, however, Galatians 5:1 says that it is for freedom that God sets us free, so you are not correctly identifying what Paul was speaking against. In Psalms 119:142, the Law of God is truth, and in John 8:31-36, it is lawlessness that puts us into bondage while the truth sets us free.

Jesus made us free from the law of sin and death- Romans 8:2
In Romans 7:25-8:2, Paul contrasted the Law of God with the law of sin and contrasted the Law of the Spirit with the law of sin and death, so the Law of God is not the law of sin and death. In Romans 8:4-7, Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of God. In Romans 7, Paul said that the Law of God is good, that he wanted to do good, that he delighted in obeying it, and that he served it with his mind, but contrasted it with the law of sin that was working within his members, that was causing him not to do the good that he wanted to, the held him captive, and that he served with his flesh.

we are not under the law- Romans 6:15
The Law of God leads us to do what is holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12) while the law of sin leads us in the opposite direction by stirring up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death (Romans 7:5). In Romans 6:14, Paul descried the law that we are not under as being a law where sin had dominion over us, which does not describe the Law of God, but rather it is the law of sin where sin had dominion over us. In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith, this is what it means to be under grace, and this is why those who are under grace are not permitted to do what the Law of God reveals to be sin (Romans 6:15), so we are still under it, but are not under under the law of sin.

if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law - Galatians 5:18
The Spirit is God, so would be absurd to interpret that as saying that we aren't led by God when we are led by God. In Galatian 5:16-23, Paul contrasted the desires of the flesh with the desires of the Spirit and everything that he listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against the Mosaic Law while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it. If we weren't under the Mosaic Law, then we would be free to partake in what it reveals to be the works of the flesh, but that is the opposite of what Paul was saying. Rather, the desires of the flesh causing us not to do the good that we want to do is how Paul described his struggle with the law of sin in Romans 7, so that is the law that we aren't under when we are led by the Spirit. In Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Law of God.

the strength of sin is the law
- 1 Corinthians 15:56
In Romans 7:7, the Law of God is not sinful, but is how we know what sin is, however, a law that is the strength of sin is sinful, therefore that verses is not referring to the Law of God, but rather it is the law of sin that is the strength of sin.

the law worketh wrath
- Romans 4:15
The fact that the Law of God brings wrath for those who refuse to obey it is not a very good reason to refuse to obey it.

ye also are become dead to the law - Romans 7:4
It would be absurd to think that the way to becoming unified with Christ is by dying to His instructions or to think that the way to become unified with God's word made flesh is by dying to God's word or to think that the way to bear fruit for God is by dying to His instructions for how to bear fruit for Him. Rather, we need to die to a law that was hindering us from bearing fruit for God, namely the law of sin.

we are delivered from the law- Romans 7:6

we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter- Romans 7:6
In Romans 7:22-23, Paul said that he delighted in obeying the Law of God, but contrasted it with the law of sin that held him captive. In would be absurd to interpret Romans 7:5 as referring to the Law of God as if Paul delighted in stirring up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto to death, but rather that is the role of the law of sin. Likewise, it would be absurd to interpret Romans 7:6 as if Paul delighted in being held captive to sin, but rather it is the law of sin that he described as holding him captive. Verses that would be absurd for Paul to delight in doing should not be interpreted as referring to the Law of God, such as in 1 Corinthians 15:56, it would be absurd to interpret that as Paul delighting in the strength of sin, with interpreting Romans 6:14 as Paul delighting in sin having dominion over him, or with interpreting Romans 5:20 as Paul delighting in causing sin to increase, but rather this is the role of the law of sin. Paul was a servant of God, so it should not make sense to you to interpret him in a way that turns him against obeying what God has commanded.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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#76
Christianity 101 should be
What you think Christianity 101 "should be" is irrelevant in light of what the Bible teaches.

that followers of God should follow His commands in accordance with the example that Jesus set for us to follow.
Following the Law perfectly is IMPOSSIBLE, and failing to do so perfectly results in DEATH. That's where your "salvation" leads.
 

ocean

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#78
Um... what? Perhaps the wires got crossed in your post. Could you please rephrase.
sorry. What I meant was that they do not teach what scripture actually reveals. Left out some important words. :oops:
 

ocean

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#79
A Protestant Church similar to other Protestant Churches.
Not buying that. Perhaps you mean a church similar to other churches that believe as do you :unsure:
 

lrs68

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#80
Not buying that. Perhaps you mean a church similar to other churches that believe as do you :unsure:
If you think in terms of Protestant Churches which Churches do you think about?

Baptist, Wesleyan, Pentecostal, Presbyterian, Methodist?