Thief on the Cross
- Thread starter Wansvic
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
In this context, is everyone who has ever been baptized, always saved? It seems possible to me both can be true; and, I used to think only water baptism saved before this thread. Some may have the possibility of being saved without the water as in "grace thru faith" (think innocent children and people who have never heard the good news) and not everyone who was ever baptized went to heaven. Surely, some who are baptized, fall back in the grip of satan and lose their way (God forbid).
By faith in the person not seen the Holy place. It does not take faith to believe in the things seen. It takes looking as. . in some have received their reward of no faith. We are not to have the faith of Christ the power we do have in these earthen bodies in respect to what the eyes see. God is not a man as us and neither is there any fleshly mediator set between God not seen and man seen.
The H20 baptism performed with human hands has its foundation in an Old testament ceremonial law. It is still applicable when a person has a desire to member of the priesthood of believers. No longer after the tribe of Levi but after all the nations men and women alike the fulfillment of Melchizdek. The promise of Joel. Jesus would come from the tribe of Judah and reform his government. No longer in respect to the flesh of a nation and one tribe from it.
The context of h20 baptizing below
Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying. And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him. John 3:25
No question. . . does water baptism confirm a person has received the Holy Spirit.?
No such thing a “sign gifts” we walk by faith. . This would fall into the same category of the mis- understood tongues. The foundation of the doctrine must be viewed, or it makes the unseen understanding without effect.
We must look to the foundations.
Acts 2:15-17 King James Version (KJV) For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
The context of h20 baptizing below
Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying. And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him. John 3:25
No question. . . does water baptism confirm a person has received the Holy Spirit.?
No such thing a “sign gifts” we walk by faith. . This would fall into the same category of the mis- understood tongues. The foundation of the doctrine must be viewed, or it makes the unseen understanding without effect.
We must look to the foundations.
Acts 2:15-17 King James Version (KJV) For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
The account shown in Acts 10:44-48 points to the fact that even after one receives the Holy Ghost they are still required to get water baptized in Jesus' name. The content of Peter's interaction with the Jewish leaders about why Peter water baptized the Gentiles shows that if Peter had not done it he would have been withstanding God:
" Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life." Acts 11:17
The bible gives all new believers examples of what is expected. After the Day of Pentecost all nationalities of people Jews, Gentiles, Samaritans (Acts 2:38, 8:12-17, 10:44-48) and the Ephesus disciples, (Per Paul's instructions Acts 19:1-6) followed ALL of the instructions given. Everyone was told to repent, get water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus and to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Also, Paul's comments in Acts 19 make is clear that not only is water baptism necessary but how one is water baptized is relevant. The Ephesus disciples had been baptized by John. Beings the act of water baptism is how one associates with the burial of Jesus the baptism should be administered in His name.
" Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life." Acts 11:17
The bible gives all new believers examples of what is expected. After the Day of Pentecost all nationalities of people Jews, Gentiles, Samaritans (Acts 2:38, 8:12-17, 10:44-48) and the Ephesus disciples, (Per Paul's instructions Acts 19:1-6) followed ALL of the instructions given. Everyone was told to repent, get water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus and to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Also, Paul's comments in Acts 19 make is clear that not only is water baptism necessary but how one is water baptized is relevant. The Ephesus disciples had been baptized by John. Beings the act of water baptism is how one associates with the burial of Jesus the baptism should be administered in His name.
Old and the New took th ewords out of my mouth.
The Father filled me with His Holy Spirit and dI immediately began reading theWord for my first time. It all shouted truth to me, and joy and love...and so much more. I went to the Rockies to read the Word more and share all I coudl with any who would listen. I would go every summer for three years
One day a brother came to me and asked if I had been baptized. I tod him no. He said I should be and I did because Jesus, Himself, was baptized. The brother was tickled pink, and so was I. Yes, I believe I was already saved, but it was such a privilege to be baptized in watere Just like our Savior, halleluyah!
Thank YOU , j and d.……..
The Father filled me with His Holy Spirit and dI immediately began reading theWord for my first time. It all shouted truth to me, and joy and love...and so much more. I went to the Rockies to read the Word more and share all I coudl with any who would listen. I would go every summer for three years
One day a brother came to me and asked if I had been baptized. I tod him no. He said I should be and I did because Jesus, Himself, was baptized. The brother was tickled pink, and so was I. Yes, I believe I was already saved, but it was such a privilege to be baptized in watere Just like our Savior, halleluyah!
Thank YOU , j and d.……..
-
2
- Show all
The fact still remains that at Acts 10 they received the Holy Spirit "BEFORE" they were water baptised, period. Of course your suppose to get water baptized but not getting water baptized after you have already received the Holy Spirit does not mean one is not saved anymore.
Answer me this question, what about someone accepting Jesus Christ as their Savior and they are unable to get water baptised for at least a million reasons? What if their sick and in the hospital, what about someone in war and they come to Christ but can't get water baptized? Your making this issue a strict rule which is impossible (at times) to be followed. You still have a wrong view of 1 Peter 3:21. I'm posting a site that explains the verse and there are dozens of sites that explain it right. How about you posting some sites that agree with you?
https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/263-please-explain-1-peter-3-21
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Answer me this question, what about someone accepting Jesus Christ as their Savior and they are unable to get water baptised for at least a million reasons? What if their sick and in the hospital, what about someone in war and they come to Christ but can't get water baptized? Your making this issue a strict rule which is impossible (at times) to be followed. You still have a wrong view of 1 Peter 3:21. I'm posting a site that explains the verse and there are dozens of sites that explain it right. How about you posting some sites that agree with you?
https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/263-please-explain-1-peter-3-21
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
-
1
-
1
- Show all
The fact still remains that at Acts 10 they received the Holy Spirit "BEFORE" they were water baptised, period. Of course your suppose to get water baptized but not getting water baptized after you have already received the Holy Spirit does not mean one is not saved anymore.
Answer me this question, what about someone accepting Jesus Christ as their Savior and they are unable to get water baptised for at least a million reasons? What if their sick and in the hospital, what about someone in war and they come to Christ but can't get water baptized? Your making this issue a strict rule which is impossible (at times) to be followed. You still have a wrong view of 1 Peter 3:21. I'm posting a site that explains the verse and there are dozens of sites that explain it right. How about you posting some sites that agree with you?
https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/263-please-explain-1-peter-3-21
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Answer me this question, what about someone accepting Jesus Christ as their Savior and they are unable to get water baptised for at least a million reasons? What if their sick and in the hospital, what about someone in war and they come to Christ but can't get water baptized? Your making this issue a strict rule which is impossible (at times) to be followed. You still have a wrong view of 1 Peter 3:21. I'm posting a site that explains the verse and there are dozens of sites that explain it right. How about you posting some sites that agree with you?
https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/263-please-explain-1-peter-3-21
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
...the apostle had already affirmed that baptism “now saves you.”
He does not mean, of course, that there is some intrinsic efficacy in the water itself. One is saved ultimately by the blood of Jesus (Matthew 26:28; Ephesians 1:7, etc.), but that blood is spiritually accessed when the penitent believer obeys God’s command to be immersed in water, in the likeness of Christ’s burial and resurrection (Romans 6:3-4; Colossians 2:12), unto newness of life.
...other passages of Scripture which connect baptism with salvation (e.g., Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; 22:16; Ephesians 5:26; Titus 3:5, etc.).
In Kittel’s Theological Dictionary, the rendition is this: “Baptism does not confer physical cleansing but saves as a request for forgiveness” (1972, 262).
These renditions indicate, of course, that the good conscience follows the immersion.
It is clear, therefore, when one examines 1 Peter 3:21 in an honest and careful fashion, that this inspired declaration does not negate the idea that immersion in water is necessary as a condition for the forgiveness of sins; RATHER, IT STRONGLY CONFIRMS IT.
Also, see additional comments presented at the bottom of that same page as well:
Related Articles
- 8 Mistaken Ideas About Baptism
- Do Romans 6:3-4 and Galatians 3:26-27 Refer to Spirit Baptism?
- Does Mark 16:16 Involve “Water” Baptism?
- False Charges Against Christ
- A Dispute About the Purpose of Baptism
- The Righteousness of God Revealed
- Stranger? Or Family and Friend?
- Who Was John the Baptist?
- The Assault upon Mark 16:16
- A Common Faith and Common Salvation
-
1
- Show all
The following is an article from the same website you said supported your view that people do not have to get baptized in water in order to be saved. Please read this and give me your viewpoint. I am very interested.
Why Cornelius Received an Outpouring of the Holy Spirit?
First, Cornelius’ reception of the Holy Spirit represented a very unique situation. He was the first Gentile to be offered the gospel. This was a revolutionary step in the unfolding of God’s scheme of redemption.
The fact is, the supernatural work of the Spirit in this case had nothing at all to do with Cornelius’ personal salvation. The outpouring of the Spirit was to persuade the Jews that Gentiles had an equal right to the kingdom of heaven.
Note these passages:
The apostle Peter, in his defense of the Gentiles’ acceptance into the church, made it very clear that God “made no distinction between them [Gentiles] and us [Jews]” in the matter of salvation (Acts 15:9).
If one can learn, therefore, what the Jews were required to do in order to secure the remission of their sins, he will be compelled to conclude that the identical process applied to Cornelius and his household.
Luke records the first Jewish response to the gospel from the Day of Pentecost. Believers who believed the message regarding Christ were instructed: “Repent and be immersed ... for the forgiveness of your sins” (Acts 2:38).
Baptism was crucial to their obedience. One must conclude that Cornelius was under an equal obligation. No wonder Peter “commanded” the Gentile soldier to be immersed (10:48).
The Order of Events
According to Peter’s rehearsal of these events—which is more chronological than is Luke’s original record (cf. Acts 11:4)—the Spirit fell upon Cornelius just as the apostle “began to speak” (Acts 11:15), and therefore, before this Gentile even heard the message—before he had faith (cf. Romans 10:17).
If Cornelius’ reception of the Holy Spirit is an indication of his salvation, then Cornelius was saved without faith. In fact, if such was the case, the Holy Spirit simply could have saved Cornelius and his household without Peter or the other Jews.
Conclusion
Cornelius was the first Gentile converted to Christ. To convince the Jews that the Gentiles were to be permitted into the Kingdom of Christ, the Holy Spirit demonstrated his approval of Cornelius as a candidate. Having received this demonstration of divine approval, Peter commenced to preach to Cornelius and commanded him to be immersed.
Why Cornelius Received an Outpouring of the Holy Spirit?
First, Cornelius’ reception of the Holy Spirit represented a very unique situation. He was the first Gentile to be offered the gospel. This was a revolutionary step in the unfolding of God’s scheme of redemption.
The fact is, the supernatural work of the Spirit in this case had nothing at all to do with Cornelius’ personal salvation. The outpouring of the Spirit was to persuade the Jews that Gentiles had an equal right to the kingdom of heaven.
Note these passages:
“And they of the circumcision that believed were amazed, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Spirit” (Acts 10:45).
“If then God gave unto them the like gift as he did also unto us, when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I, that I could withstand God?” (Acts 11:17).
“And God, who knoweth the heart, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto us” (Acts 15:8).
No Distinction in Salvation“If then God gave unto them the like gift as he did also unto us, when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I, that I could withstand God?” (Acts 11:17).
“And God, who knoweth the heart, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto us” (Acts 15:8).
The apostle Peter, in his defense of the Gentiles’ acceptance into the church, made it very clear that God “made no distinction between them [Gentiles] and us [Jews]” in the matter of salvation (Acts 15:9).
If one can learn, therefore, what the Jews were required to do in order to secure the remission of their sins, he will be compelled to conclude that the identical process applied to Cornelius and his household.
Luke records the first Jewish response to the gospel from the Day of Pentecost. Believers who believed the message regarding Christ were instructed: “Repent and be immersed ... for the forgiveness of your sins” (Acts 2:38).
Baptism was crucial to their obedience. One must conclude that Cornelius was under an equal obligation. No wonder Peter “commanded” the Gentile soldier to be immersed (10:48).
The Order of Events
According to Peter’s rehearsal of these events—which is more chronological than is Luke’s original record (cf. Acts 11:4)—the Spirit fell upon Cornelius just as the apostle “began to speak” (Acts 11:15), and therefore, before this Gentile even heard the message—before he had faith (cf. Romans 10:17).
If Cornelius’ reception of the Holy Spirit is an indication of his salvation, then Cornelius was saved without faith. In fact, if such was the case, the Holy Spirit simply could have saved Cornelius and his household without Peter or the other Jews.
Conclusion
Cornelius was the first Gentile converted to Christ. To convince the Jews that the Gentiles were to be permitted into the Kingdom of Christ, the Holy Spirit demonstrated his approval of Cornelius as a candidate. Having received this demonstration of divine approval, Peter commenced to preach to Cornelius and commanded him to be immersed.
Do you know why - being that we are the Temple of God - are not required to do the ceremonial cleansing anymore?
Remember that the priests of the Temple used to have to do ceremonial washing of cups and bowls and such, and they couldn't touch a dead person without a period of cleansing etc etc?
Yet, the only laws now are the moral laws.. Did you understand why that is?
It's because Jesus is both Pure, and Purifier..
We see this in that the unclean things that Jesus touched He healed, instead of Himself being defiled by things like the dead, the leper and the woman with the issue of blood, He purified them and made them clean...
This why we, as a priesthood of believers, are only required to pray over things, and that His work through us the unclean becomes clean.
Outward symbols then, such as baptism, while it's our public confession of faith, are unnecessary to our salvation. Because the work of salvation is all Him. We respond to His work, but if we are unable to make the public response, it doesn't hinder our salvation in any way - because it is He who purifies and not we..
Hopefully I explained that well..
Remember that the priests of the Temple used to have to do ceremonial washing of cups and bowls and such, and they couldn't touch a dead person without a period of cleansing etc etc?
Yet, the only laws now are the moral laws.. Did you understand why that is?
It's because Jesus is both Pure, and Purifier..
We see this in that the unclean things that Jesus touched He healed, instead of Himself being defiled by things like the dead, the leper and the woman with the issue of blood, He purified them and made them clean...
This why we, as a priesthood of believers, are only required to pray over things, and that His work through us the unclean becomes clean.
Outward symbols then, such as baptism, while it's our public confession of faith, are unnecessary to our salvation. Because the work of salvation is all Him. We respond to His work, but if we are unable to make the public response, it doesn't hinder our salvation in any way - because it is He who purifies and not we..
Hopefully I explained that well..
What would happen if a person, having already received the Holy Spirit, for one reason or another, not get water baptized. What that person then lose his salvation. John baptized with water for the remission of sin but the baptism from Jesus is the Holy Spirit and fire. I believe that water baptism is a type foreshadowing the baptism of the Holy Spirit and fire. Even though Jesus was baptized, and this to fulfil prophesy He himself baptized no one. I find that very odd if water baptism is indeed required. Where in the bible does it say specifically that it is required to get water baptism and that this baptism absolutely has to involve immersion?
The purification laws, etc. were definitely required in the OT law. However, water baptism for the remission of sin began in the NT.
Please provide scripture showing that baptism is done as a public confession of one's faith.
There are many scriptures provided in this thread that show baptism is a component of salvation
Please provide scripture showing that baptism is done as a public confession of one's faith.
There are many scriptures provided in this thread that show baptism is a component of salvation
Only God has the answers to your questions about those who are unable to get water baptized.
Acts 2:38 - this is the first time water baptism in Jesus' name is commanded for everyone. Those that had been baptized by John had to be re-baptized in the name of Jesus and they had to receive the Holy Ghost as well. (Acts 19:2-6)
Some examples of baptism by immersion are in the record of Jesus baptism; the eunuch's baptism by Philip and the record where Jesus joined disciples and John baptized in Aenon because of much water being there:
Matt 3:16
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Acts 8:38-39
And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
John 3:22-23
After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.
Acts 2:38 - this is the first time water baptism in Jesus' name is commanded for everyone. Those that had been baptized by John had to be re-baptized in the name of Jesus and they had to receive the Holy Ghost as well. (Acts 19:2-6)
Some examples of baptism by immersion are in the record of Jesus baptism; the eunuch's baptism by Philip and the record where Jesus joined disciples and John baptized in Aenon because of much water being there:
Matt 3:16
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Acts 8:38-39
And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
John 3:22-23
After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.
I have to say wansvic this is one of the worst explanations I have ever heard. Of course it was "a tip off" to the Jews that the Gentiles had equal rights of salvation, everybody does after the crucifixation of Jesus Christ. This is why the Apostle Paul said at Galatians 3:28, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Duh!
So, how does that negate the salvation of Cornelius and his family I might add? Sure, your explanation includes very descriptive language like, "unique situation," "a revolutionary step etc." And to make matters worse for you the following was said, "If Cornelius’ reception of the Holy Spirit is an indication of his salvation, then Cornelius was saved without faith. In fact, if such was the case, the Holy Spirit simply could have saved Cornelius and his household without Peter or the other Jews."
Where does faith come from wansvic? Are you familar with Romans 10:17? "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ/God." Now look at Acts 10:44, "While Peter was still speaking these words the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were LISTENING TO THE MESSAGE."
So how can you say with a straight face that Cornelius was not saved like every other person that ever lived was saved by hearing the word of God? Even the thief heard the word of God and responded appropriately by repenting and being saved.
Why do you guys try so hard to "kick against the pricks" trying to promote something by practically all accounts is not scriptural? Your church and you are in league with the Jw's, oneness pentecostals, the Mormons, and others including the Church of Christ. Lastly, you did not address one word in my post about those who cannot get water baptized for various reasons, what happen to them? PS: I see you did address the question and of course you gave a "typical" coverall answer that "Only God knows the answer?" I'm afraid that won't cut it, moreover, that is not a Biblical answer God does "NOT" leave people "hanging."
The Bible teaches we can know without a doubt whether we are saved or not saved. Guess what verse it is? Hint, it's in I John.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
So, how does that negate the salvation of Cornelius and his family I might add? Sure, your explanation includes very descriptive language like, "unique situation," "a revolutionary step etc." And to make matters worse for you the following was said, "If Cornelius’ reception of the Holy Spirit is an indication of his salvation, then Cornelius was saved without faith. In fact, if such was the case, the Holy Spirit simply could have saved Cornelius and his household without Peter or the other Jews."
Where does faith come from wansvic? Are you familar with Romans 10:17? "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ/God." Now look at Acts 10:44, "While Peter was still speaking these words the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were LISTENING TO THE MESSAGE."
So how can you say with a straight face that Cornelius was not saved like every other person that ever lived was saved by hearing the word of God? Even the thief heard the word of God and responded appropriately by repenting and being saved.
Why do you guys try so hard to "kick against the pricks" trying to promote something by practically all accounts is not scriptural? Your church and you are in league with the Jw's, oneness pentecostals, the Mormons, and others including the Church of Christ. Lastly, you did not address one word in my post about those who cannot get water baptized for various reasons, what happen to them?
PS: I see you did address the question and of course you gave a "typical" coverall answer that "Only God knows the answer?" I'm afraid that won't cut it, moreover, that is not a Biblical answer God does "NOT" leave people "hanging." The Bible teaches we can know without a doubt whether we are saved or not saved. Guess what verse it is? Hint, it's in I John.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
-
1
- Show all
If water baptism was absolutely required for salvation, then God would not make so many statements in scripture in which He promises eternal life/salvation to those who simply believe/place faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. (Luke 8:12: John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; 1 John 5:13 etc..).
-
2
- Show all
Let's also not forget Acts 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; 5:1; 10:4. There are a handful of verses in the Bible that works-salvationists try to use as proof texts to prove that water baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation, yet a careful examination of each of these texts in context will show that none of them prove that baptism is absolutely required for salvation, though they do prove that baptism is an initiatory response to the gospel of salvation. In other words, these texts prove only that baptism is regularly associated with conversion and salvation, rather than absolutely required for salvation. Baptism put it in it's proper place, subsequent to obtaining salvation, as all good works must be. (Ephesians 2:8-10)
-
1
- Show all
The Jews had no idea that salvation was available to the Gentiles prior to the experience that took place as recorded in Acts 10:44-48. We see this evidence in Peter's explanation to the Jewish leaders as to why he water baptized the Gentiles. (Acts 11:17-18)
The point the article made was that Cornelius and the others had not heard the entire message but just a portion. I'm not sure about that. I have never studied that out.
Again, the thief was not required to follow the commands given in Acts 2:38 because those instructions had not been given yet.
There is one truth and it is to be found in the bible not from any particular denomination. Church denomination beliefs differ in various ways. That's why we should not blindly accept what a denomination preaches and ignore those things that the Word clearly contradicts.
All believers are on a journey and none know everything; we are not God. However, the evidence in the Word gives me confidence that believing, repentance, water baptism in Jesus' name and receiving the Holy Ghost and going on to live for Jesus are requirements for one's salvation. I don't see how there are any exceptions because God does not waver in His precepts. I personally find it hard to believe that God would not give a person the opportunity to adhere to His Word.
You mention examples such as people sick and in hospital, in war, etc. You limit God's ability to make a way for the person that sees the truth of the need to get water baptized to do so.
The consequences could certainly be different for a person that has heard of the need to get water baptized many times and has refused to obey. We are admonished that "today is the day of salvation." (2 Cor 6:1-2) Are we to believe that the Word of God has to conform to meet one's personal circumstances such as when one is confronted with eternal consequences? Think about the day that that the ark door was closed and the rain began to fall. No one wanted to accept Noah's message and get into the ark until they were faced with death.
Here's a hypothetical question for you: If you believed water baptism was necessary for salvation wouldn't you move mountains to get to the water?
God is the one who wrote the rules. Not me. I am just a messenger.
The context of salvation is seen beginning in John chapter 3 verse 1 and continues on the verse 16.
The point the article made was that Cornelius and the others had not heard the entire message but just a portion. I'm not sure about that. I have never studied that out.
Again, the thief was not required to follow the commands given in Acts 2:38 because those instructions had not been given yet.
Your church and you are in league with the Jw's, oneness pentecostals, the Mormons, and others including the Church of Christ. Lastly, you did not address one word in my post about those who cannot get water baptized for various reasons, what happen to them? PS: I see you did address the question and of course you gave a "typical" coverall answer that "Only God knows the answer?" I'm afraid that won't cut it, moreover, that is not a Biblical answer God does "NOT" leave people "hanging."
PS: I see you did address the question and of course you gave a "typical" coverall answer that "Only God knows the answer?" I'm afraid that won't cut it, moreover, that is not a Biblical answer God does "NOT" leave people "hanging."
All believers are on a journey and none know everything; we are not God. However, the evidence in the Word gives me confidence that believing, repentance, water baptism in Jesus' name and receiving the Holy Ghost and going on to live for Jesus are requirements for one's salvation. I don't see how there are any exceptions because God does not waver in His precepts. I personally find it hard to believe that God would not give a person the opportunity to adhere to His Word.
You mention examples such as people sick and in hospital, in war, etc. You limit God's ability to make a way for the person that sees the truth of the need to get water baptized to do so.
The consequences could certainly be different for a person that has heard of the need to get water baptized many times and has refused to obey. We are admonished that "today is the day of salvation." (2 Cor 6:1-2) Are we to believe that the Word of God has to conform to meet one's personal circumstances such as when one is confronted with eternal consequences? Think about the day that that the ark door was closed and the rain began to fall. No one wanted to accept Noah's message and get into the ark until they were faced with death.
Here's a hypothetical question for you: If you believed water baptism was necessary for salvation wouldn't you move mountains to get to the water?
God is the one who wrote the rules. Not me. I am just a messenger.
The context of salvation is seen beginning in John chapter 3 verse 1 and continues on the verse 16.
Of course I believe in the finished work of Jesus; it is the door to salvation for all of mankind. The finished work of Jesus includes His death, burial and resurrection. Without Jesus' resurrection the NT spiritual eternal life would not be possible.
I believe the thief went to paradise because that is what Jesus said would happen.
However, after Jesus' death, burial and resurrection people had to be obedient to instructions given to the NT church. (Acts 2:38) They were told to repent, which means to die to self and follow Jesus; be buried with Jesus spiritually in the waters of baptism, and receive the power of the Holy Spirit that resurrected Jesus from the dead.
We see that God established water baptism not man:
"But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him." Luke 7:30
Jesus words about baptism having come from heaven are recorded in Matt 21:25, Mark 11:30-31, Luke 20:4-5:
"The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him? Matt 21:25
The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men? answer me.
And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say, Why then did ye not believe him? Mark 11:30-31
The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men?
And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say, Why then believed ye him not? Luke 20:4-5
I believe the thief went to paradise because that is what Jesus said would happen.
However, after Jesus' death, burial and resurrection people had to be obedient to instructions given to the NT church. (Acts 2:38) They were told to repent, which means to die to self and follow Jesus; be buried with Jesus spiritually in the waters of baptism, and receive the power of the Holy Spirit that resurrected Jesus from the dead.
We see that God established water baptism not man:
"But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him." Luke 7:30
Jesus words about baptism having come from heaven are recorded in Matt 21:25, Mark 11:30-31, Luke 20:4-5:
"The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him? Matt 21:25
The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men? answer me.
And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say, Why then did ye not believe him? Mark 11:30-31
The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men?
And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say, Why then believed ye him not? Luke 20:4-5