Not only that, but from everything we know of the Thessalonians, Paul would have had no cause to have written them cautioning them not to be persuaded by anyone trying to tell them "the day of Christ is AT HAND" (coz that's when WE go UP THERE *WITH HIM* and experience the Bema-seat Rewards, which is only FOR "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" i.e. via the Rapture / Snatch / Caught UP avenue leading there to "the day of CHRIST" [whereas "the day of the Lord" is entirely EARTHLY-located])
Thief in the Night-- Pretrib or Second Coming?
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That is not the issue. You misunderstood.
In post #490, I was making the point that you were quick to jump-force the rapture - and, make assumptions about what I was saying - when, that was not at all what I was talking about.
No offence meant or taken.
Just making a point...
In post #490, I was making the point that you were quick to jump-force the rapture - and, make assumptions about what I was saying - when, that was not at all what I was talking about.
No offence meant or taken.
Just making a point...
not intending offense here either, but I thought you were saying that my viewpoint [pre-trib and that no rapture is in Matt24 or anywhere in His Olivet Discourse] would be diverting from the truth)... regarding the thing you spelled out about "after..." issue
At the center of the [real] issue that @DavidTree was trying to address was your incorrect use of the word 'paraphrase'.
When you say that you are going to 'paraphrase' a passage of scripture, it means that you are going to "quote" scripture "using your own words" (and, often/usually, with only memory to rely on) - or, restate it in different words for the purpose of clarification.
Whatever you say still has to reflect what scripture actually says - just, in your own words.
If you add or take away - it is not a paraphrase - it is an interpretation.
To 'paraphrase' something is to restate it another way but while still having the same meaning.
I knew what you meant even if you did not say it "perfectly"; therefore, I think David over-reacted just a bit.
His intend was to warn you concerning not promulgating scripture correctly. And, I can understand that.
Based on what I believe your intent was, you have not really done anything wrong. Don't worry about it.
Just try to be clear about when you are going to 'paraphrase' and when you are going to 'interpret'.
When you say that you are going to 'paraphrase' a passage of scripture, it means that you are going to "quote" scripture "using your own words" (and, often/usually, with only memory to rely on) - or, restate it in different words for the purpose of clarification.
Whatever you say still has to reflect what scripture actually says - just, in your own words.
If you add or take away - it is not a paraphrase - it is an interpretation.
To 'paraphrase' something is to restate it another way but while still having the same meaning.
I knew what you meant even if you did not say it "perfectly"; therefore, I think David over-reacted just a bit.
His intend was to warn you concerning not promulgating scripture correctly. And, I can understand that.
Based on what I believe your intent was, you have not really done anything wrong. Don't worry about it.
Just try to be clear about when you are going to 'paraphrase' and when you are going to 'interpret'.
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It always comes back to debating the word "departure" in 2 Thessalonians 2. Just look at the context. The departure doesn't occur until Christ returns again. During which time He destroys "that Wicked" in God's temple. In my view, that's a prophecy about a third temple being built. A third temple construction is a clear cut sign the end is near.
Examine more closely...
... it says, "only in the INtransitive tenses" does it mean / convey that (what you suggest);
but NOT in the "transitive" tenses... which, the Greek WORD ORDER of this verse has it so that this is a "transitive" verb, NOT an "intransitive"
--"[purporting that] is present [transitive verb] the day of the Lord" (this is the Greek word order, thus making it a "transitive verb")
... it says, "only in the INtransitive tenses" does it mean / convey that (what you suggest);
but NOT in the "transitive" tenses... which, the Greek WORD ORDER of this verse has it so that this is a "transitive" verb, NOT an "intransitive"
--"[purporting that] is present [transitive verb] the day of the Lord" (this is the Greek word order, thus making it a "transitive verb")
Oh, wait a sec... are you either suggesting that the "we which are alive and remain unto" are the "2W" coz "we" have to DIE first and be physically resurrected before we can then be "caught up together with..."... OR are you suggesting that since the "2W" have to die, so must also the "we which are alive and remain unto," die, before we can participate in the "snatch / caught up / rapture" to the meeting of the Lord in the air thing.
I realize that some people incorrectly equate the terms "rapture" and "resurrection" or in some verses "rise"--like, the dead in Christ shall "rise" first, they mistakenly think that means "caught up" to the meeting of the Lord in the air, which it does not mean, here. Rather, it refers to "resurrection"--"to stand again [on the earth]" after having been physically dead--that idea.
Doubt this is what you're saying, but thought I'd add this for the readers following along.
So, do you think that Heb9:27 means that even the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto" must physically die first (and be physically resurrected) before we can participate in the "snatch / caught up / rapture" action? Otherwise, how would your understanding of Heb9:27 occur, for them (in particular), meaning, the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto" folks
I realize that some people incorrectly equate the terms "rapture" and "resurrection" or in some verses "rise"--like, the dead in Christ shall "rise" first, they mistakenly think that means "caught up" to the meeting of the Lord in the air, which it does not mean, here. Rather, it refers to "resurrection"--"to stand again [on the earth]" after having been physically dead--that idea.
Doubt this is what you're saying, but thought I'd add this for the readers following along.
So, do you think that Heb9:27 means that even the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto" must physically die first (and be physically resurrected) before we can participate in the "snatch / caught up / rapture" action? Otherwise, how would your understanding of Heb9:27 occur, for them (in particular), meaning, the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto" folks
You are mistakenly thinking that the text states that both of these items are "FIRST"...
... but that is not actually what the text itself is saying.
Only ONE THING is said to be "FIRST" (not TWO / both of those things, no... NOT how the text itself reads in verse 3--but many people mistake this, too, so I can understand where you're coming from).
Read the text again, and note this.
And in view of this fact that only ONE THING is said to be "FIRST" (not BOTH items in v.3), I am pointing out how Paul repeats this same sequence 3x in this passage (in 2Th2:3-8a).
... but that is not actually what the text itself is saying.
Only ONE THING is said to be "FIRST" (not TWO / both of those things, no... NOT how the text itself reads in verse 3--but many people mistake this, too, so I can understand where you're coming from).
Read the text again, and note this.
And in view of this fact that only ONE THING is said to be "FIRST" (not BOTH items in v.3), I am pointing out how Paul repeats this same sequence 3x in this passage (in 2Th2:3-8a).
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FreeGrace2 said:
v.1 is about "the coming of the Lord", which will clearly occur on a specific DATE. So "that day" absolutely does refer to "the coming of the Lord".
Of course. But as you apparently do NOT KNOW, translators added words to smooth the translation. So you are making no point at all. My point stands.
None of this makes sense.
Paul opened the epistle about "the coming of the Lord" in v.1 which is on a specific DATE, so the words what was being referenced in v.3 (that day) IS the Second Coming of the Lord. But of course you cannot accept that or you would have to repent of your false view.
v.1 is about "the coming of the Lord", which will clearly occur on a specific DATE. So "that day" absolutely does refer to "the coming of the Lord".
Of course. But as you apparently do NOT KNOW, translators added words to smooth the translation. So you are making no point at all. My point stands.
None of this makes sense.
Paul opened the epistle about "the coming of the Lord" in v.1 which is on a specific DATE, so the words what was being referenced in v.3 (that day) IS the Second Coming of the Lord. But of course you cannot accept that or you would have to repent of your false view.
FreeGrace2 said:
which will clearly occur on a specific DATE.
I must ask; are you actually trying to be dense here? What do you think a "specific DATE" means to you? Or do you think that when the Lord returns it will take days and day?
You are free to uote any verse you want, but when they don't help your cause in ANY way, why do it?
I guess just because you like to lengthen your posts at times.
which will clearly occur on a specific DATE.
I must ask; are you actually trying to be dense here? What do you think a "specific DATE" means to you? Or do you think that when the Lord returns it will take days and day?
Zec 2:11
And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee.
Zec 3:10
In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour under the vine and under the fig tree.
Zec 9:16
And the LORD their God shall save them in that day as the flock of his people: for they shall be as the stones of a crown, lifted up as an ensign upon his land.
Zec 11:11
And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the LORD.
Zec 12:3
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
Zec 12:4
In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.
Zec 12:6
In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
Zec 12:8
In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
Zec 12:9
And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:11
In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
Zec 13:1
In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.
Zec 13:2
And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.
Zec 13:4
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive:
Zec 14:4
And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Zec 14:6
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
Zec 14:8
And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
Zec 14:9
And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
Zec 14:13
And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.
Zec 14:20
In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
Zec 14:21
Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.
And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee.
In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour under the vine and under the fig tree.
And the LORD their God shall save them in that day as the flock of his people: for they shall be as the stones of a crown, lifted up as an ensign upon his land.
And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the LORD.
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.
In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.
And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive:
And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.
In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.
I guess just because you like to lengthen your posts at times.
FreeGrace2 said:
What does Heb 9:27 say? That will tell you who the 2W are. You should be able to figure it out from there.
Since this isn't so obvious to your convoluted way of thinking, I will help you out.
Heb 9:27 applies to mankind. Got it? However, the Bible also informs those who read it that there are 2 men in the OT who DIDN'T die physically. Got it? So, their opportunity to follow Heb 9:27 will come during the Tribulation. Got it?
Now, for those who "are alive and remain", you are right; they WON'T die physically. They will, instead, be "changed in the twinkline of an eye" per Paul's teaching in 1 Cor 15:52. Got it?
Now, let me ask you a question; Is God able to make exceptions? Or is He bound to follow all His plans to the T every time? You tell me.
What does Heb 9:27 say? That will tell you who the 2W are. You should be able to figure it out from there.
Since this isn't so obvious to your convoluted way of thinking, I will help you out.
Heb 9:27 applies to mankind. Got it? However, the Bible also informs those who read it that there are 2 men in the OT who DIDN'T die physically. Got it? So, their opportunity to follow Heb 9:27 will come during the Tribulation. Got it?
Now, for those who "are alive and remain", you are right; they WON'T die physically. They will, instead, be "changed in the twinkline of an eye" per Paul's teaching in 1 Cor 15:52. Got it?
Now, let me ask you a question; Is God able to make exceptions? Or is He bound to follow all His plans to the T every time? You tell me.
Wrong again. That day begins WHEN Jesus returns,m per 2 Thess 2:1-3.
Your reading skills need honing.
John 14? Are you kidding??
1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God ; believe also in me.
2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
In v.2 Jesus is affirming His 11 disciples that they WILL BE IN HEAVEN when they die. Jesus hadn't gone to the cross yet and was promising them that He would go to heaven and guarantee rooms for them.
In v.3 Jesus promised that after going to heaven, He would come back and they would be with Him forever.
Maybe you don't see any similarity, but the words "that you may be where I am" are nearly the exact same words that Paul wrote in 1 Thess 4:17 - After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
And, may I point out that in NEITHER passage is there ANY mention of Jesus taking anyone to heaven.
And these 2 passages would have been the PERFECT PLACE to say so.
But neither Jesus nor Paul said anything about a trip to heaven.
There will be NO TRIP to heaven. Or the Bible would have SAID SO.
Your reading skills need honing.
John 14? Are you kidding??
1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God ; believe also in me.
2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
In v.2 Jesus is affirming His 11 disciples that they WILL BE IN HEAVEN when they die. Jesus hadn't gone to the cross yet and was promising them that He would go to heaven and guarantee rooms for them.
In v.3 Jesus promised that after going to heaven, He would come back and they would be with Him forever.
Maybe you don't see any similarity, but the words "that you may be where I am" are nearly the exact same words that Paul wrote in 1 Thess 4:17 - After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
And, may I point out that in NEITHER passage is there ANY mention of Jesus taking anyone to heaven.
And these 2 passages would have been the PERFECT PLACE to say so.
But neither Jesus nor Paul said anything about a trip to heaven.
There will be NO TRIP to heaven. Or the Bible would have SAID SO.