There will be no Rapture!!!

[presidente]

First of all, where did I say that Jesus "already ascended" BEFORE He told Mary Magdalene what He said in John 20:17. I didn't say that nor imply that.

I meant already ascended before seeing Thomas after seeing Mary. The Bible does not say that He did.

He said to her (ON "FIRSTFRUIT" / His Res-Day), "I HAVE NOT YET ASCENDED, but go to My brethren and SAY UNTO THEM, I ASCEND [active]..." So she went and did what she was told to do, and He then "ascended" to the Father. Recall, this is early in the day.

Then way later that same day, this:

Jesus Appears to the Disciples

(John 20:19-23; 1 John 1:1-4)

36And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. 37But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. 38And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. 40And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. 41And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? 42And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. 43And he took it, and did eat before them.

Jesus Opens the Meaning of Scriptures

44And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. 45Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

[see also Mark 16:9-11 (where it says of MM "and she went and told them..." and so does Jn20:18 say so), then 12-13 (where the two walking went and told the residue of His resurrection), then v.14 where Jesus "appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart because they believed not them which had seen Him after He was risen"]


Ask yourself, why does Jesus tell MM to "go and say unto My brethren I ascend [active] unto My Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God" if / since He is going to see them late in the evening that very same day and could very well tell them HIMSELF about His "40 days later" ascension IF that's what He was talking about.
And ask yourself, why does He now (that very same day) say to them "Handle me..." when He'd just earlier that very day told MM "Touch Me not, FOR I am NOT YET ascended to My Father"

Many other interpretations of the passage seem to be a better fit than assuming there was an ascension before the ascension. Commentators suggest a number of reasons He may not wanted Mary Magdalene to keep touching Him. He told her about His ascension, and then told her to tell the brethren about it. What is so shocking about that? The commentaries I read do not imply that the ascension had to be immediate, after she left. One commentary suggested she was to hurry, stop touching Jesus, and go tell the disciples. There are also old interpretations that are a bit more allegorical.

You wrote, "And ask yourself, why does He now (that very same day) say to them "Handle me..." when He'd just earlier that very day told MM "Touch Me not, FOR I am NOT YET ascended to My Father" "

Good question, and we can speculate on the answer... from wanting Mary to hurry up and do her task to various other ideas. But your question isn't sufficient evidence to prove an ascension of Christ before the ascension.

Then recognize that a week earlier (on what we call "Palm Sunday" [when the "69 Weeks" concluded], i.e. on "Nisan 10") it was the very day when, according to Ex12:3,5,6 they were to "select" the sacrificial lamb and examine it for four days, "Your lamb shall be WITHOUT BLEMISH, a male of the first year...". Now look at the passage I referred to in my earlier post, Lev23:10-12 which speaks of the day on their calendar they called "Firstfruit," and note where verse 12 says, "...offer that day when ye wave the sheaf [which you "bring" "unto the priest" per v.10] an he lamb of the first year WITHOUT BLEMISH".

Jesus is both the fulfillment of "the sheaf" and the "he lamb of the first year without blemish" (on the very day they called "Firstfruit"--see also 1Cor15:20)... and because of our connection with Christ (as "the Church which is His body"--all those having come to faith in Christ in "this present age [singular]"), the following also pertains to us:

--"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized INTO JESUS CHRIST [not in water] were baptized INTO HIS DEATH" Rom6:3,
and then v.6 says, "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him..."
and v.8, "Now if we be DEAD WITH CHRIST...";
Col2:12 says re: us, "having been buried-with Him IN THE BAPTISM" https://biblehub.com/text/colossians/2-12.htm (i.e. His death);

..."wherein also ye are RISEN WITH HIM [/ye were raised-with Him]..." (see also Col3:1-4 on same theme)...;

--and Col2:13 states we are "quickened-together-with Him" (speaking of His bodily resurrection);

...and Eph2:5b-6, speaking of same, says that God "quickened-us-together-with Christ [WHEN HE WAS]...

...and hath raised-us-up-together, and made-us-sit-together [/seated-us-together] IN HEAVENLY PLACES / IN HEAVENLIES in Christ Jesus" (that is, positionally / legally, WHEN HE HIMSELF DID (all those)... not literally (yet).


The "SEATED US TOGETHER IN THE HEAVENLIES [in Christ Jesus]" is what I'm saying He accomplished ON the date called "FIRSTFRUIT".

Huge leap there. You go from us being seated together in heavenly places to the idea of an additional ascension before the one mentioned in scripture? And all this speculation is for what... to lay a foundation for the speculative pre-trib theory?

How often did Old Testament priests go to heaven to offer the firstfruits offering? Can you show me a passage where it teaches that to offer a sheave, the priest had to go to ascend to heaven first.

Then He spent some "40 days" being seen of them, before the Acts 1 scene, where He (while they "beheld') "was taken up"... and "they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went / traveled / journeyed up...". It is THIS "manner" that it is said, "He shall SO come IN LIKE MANNER AS ye have SEEN Him traveling / go into heaven"

Are you now arguing, based on this speculation, that the rapture occurs 40 days before the second coming?

 

[presidente]

It's understood. Because Jesus at that time was referring back to what they already knew about, from Isaiah 24:9,12-13 (speaking of "Israel")... regarding when the "great" trumpet will be sounded, and the elect of Israel will be gathered together into one place upon the earth--"to worship the Lord in the holy mount, at Jerusalem"--gathered from the extremities, that is, "from the four winds" to which they had been judicially "scattered" (this is not true of "the Church which is His body" / us).

Please carefully read Matthew 24:29-31 and compare it to both Isaiah 24:9,12-13--"great" trumpet--(coupled with Rom11:27), and Daniel 9:24.

There is no "rapture / snatch / caught up" being spoken of in Matthew 24 or anywhere in His Olivet Discourse.

In Matthew 24, Jesus describes the coming of the Son of Man and the gathering of the elect. II Thessalonians 2:1 mentions the coming of the Lord and our gathering unto Him. Don't these seem closely related. The Son of man is the Lord, after all.

The passage you referred me to mentions a trumpet when Judah is gathered. Isn't II Thessalonians 2:1 more closely related?

Now, Judah may be gathered like that at the Second Coming. As far as I know, it is possible that could occur. But Isaiah 27 doesn't seem to be as closely related to Matthew 24.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Are you now arguing, based on this speculation, that the rapture occurs 40 days before the second coming?

No.

Recall, I'd placed a reminder at the end of that post, saying that the number "40" = "judgment / trial / testing" (and that's exactly what Rev6-19 is talking about (what we commonly call the 7-yr Tribulation Period, aka the "70th Week" of Daniel [Dan9:27a(,26b)]]);

example: see the wording in Rev3:10 "... I also will keep thee from the hour of TESTING [/TEMPTATION / TRIAL]... to TRY THEM that dwell/dwelling [G2730] upon the earth"... (speaking of the events which will unfold upon the earth between chpt 4 and His RETURN to the earth in Rev19).






... my point was about this (topic we were discussing) being the same "pattern" (not to say the future prophecy [i.e. the FUTURE aspects of Rev] must take place exactly in the same length of time, "40 days"... uh, nope. Not what I was suggesting there, see.

"40" = "TRIAL / TESTING / JUDGMENT," see.

That's the thing I'm pointing out about the sequence and pattern, of what we were discussing.

 

[Underwhosewings]

There will be no pre or mid tribulation rapture. This is an invention of the dispensationalists. The Pre-Rapture was invented by the dispensationalist John Darby in the 19th century. It did not exist before that. Church history did not know a Pre-Rapture before the 19th century.

The Bible clearly states that Christians must go through the Tribulation, for Revelation 20:4 describes how Christians will be beheaded for their faith during the Tribulation. If there really was a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, then logically there would be no Christians in the Tribulation, but because there will be Christians in the Tribulation, that means there will be no Pre-Tribulation Rapture! Revelation 13:7 also declares that Christians will be given into the hand of the Antichrist, which means the Antichrist may overcome Christians and kill them.

Jesus will return only once and that is after the tribulation. Then he will gather all Christians.

He will return in the middle of the last seven years, to “rapture” His overcomers/saints, only then can the Antichrist rule, for the last 3 1/2 yrs.

Acts 14:22 KJV
Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

You wrote, "And ask yourself, why does He now (that very same day) say to them "Handle me..." when He'd just earlier that very day told MM "Touch Me not, FOR I am NOT YET ascended to My Father" "

Good question, and we can speculate on the answer... from wanting Mary to hurry up and do her task to various other ideas. But your question isn't sufficient evidence to prove an ascension of Christ before the ascension.

What you are suggesting here, is that perhaps Jesus wanted MM to "hurry up and do the task of SAYING UNTO My brethren, I will be ascending some 40 days from now... and by the way, FOR THAT REASON, do not touch [or even 'cling'] to Me, because I've not yet ascended... but I WILL be ascending, in some 40 days from now. Now, HURRY, Mary, coz... well, for no real reason really, just HURRY to that task I've given you to do for no real reason, it's just important that you SAY UNTO them 'I'm ascending in 40 days'... coz I don't really wanna say it to them Myself, this evening, when I come into them where they'll be meeting togethere and I say TO THEM "HANDLE ME..." even though I just told you it's very important that YOU don't "touch [or even 'cling'] to Me coz I'm ascending IN FORTY DAYS' TIME".



Makes no real sense of what the texts are telling us.

IMO, try again... thinking, why does He say all this to her?

 

[ewq1938]

Yes, that’s what I believe, too. Clouds (of people) refers to all the saints (elect) that come with Jesus.

The context does not support that:

1Th 4:17 Then we (PEOPLE) which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them (PEOPLE) in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The clouds are clearly a destination where some people are, and where some people are going to be. Clouds here are not also representative of people since the people are mentioned already and are said to be going to the clouds, plus it mentioned teh air as well as being CAUGHT UP, where air and clouds are.

The rapture is an event where people all around the Earth (on the ground) will be lifted up in the air as high as the white/dark clouds that we can see way up there. It is the same area in the sky that Jesus will be seen at so it shouldn't be a shocking concept.

 

[ewq1938]

He will return in the middle of the last seven years, to “rapture” His overcomers/saints, only then can the Antichrist rule, for the last 3 1/2 yrs.

The saints are still there when the AC comes though. He wars against them which means there was no rapture before the AC comes.

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Same thing here:

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

So, the church (the saints) will be in the trib and will be the ones the dragon and the beast make war against. Those same people are mentioned in the 5th seal and Rev 20 as those who are killed in this war. Some will survive the war, and they are the ones Paul said are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord, the ones who will be raptured.

 

[Underwhosewings]

The saints are still there when the AC comes though. He wars against them which means there was no rapture before the AC comes.

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Same thing here:

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

So, the church (the saints) will be in the trib and will be the ones the dragon and the beast make war against. Those same people are mentioned in the 5th seal and Rev 20 as those who are killed in this war. Some will survive the war, and they are the ones Paul said are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord, the ones who will be raptured.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4,6-7 KJV
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come,
except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Many Christians today are half baked, compromisers, so easily they will *fall away,* or they continue, thinking that they are ready.

Then those who don’t fall away, but endure to the end (of the first 3 1/2 years of tribulation), get caught up to meet the Lord in the air (taken out of the way)

It will then be obvious to those who thought they were ready, that they have been left behind.
And Yes, they (the remnant of her seed) now become overcomers and will endure the final 3 1/2 years of tribulation.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with
*the remnant of her seed,*
which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

[4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped;
so that he as God sitteth
in the temple of God,
shewing himself that he is God.
[6] And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
[7] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work:
only he who now letteth will let,
until he be
taken out of the way.

Hebrews 11:35 KJV
Women received their dead raised to life again: and
others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

 

[ewq1938]

Then those who don’t fall away, but endure to the end (of the first 3 1/2 years of tribulation),

The full extent and length of the trib is 42 months or 3.5 years (Rev 13), not double that. The trib is not split in half.

get caught up to meet the Lord in the air (taken out of the way)

It will then be obvious to those who thought they were ready, that they have been left behind. And Yes, they (the remnant of her seed) now become overcomers and will endure the final 3 1/2 years of tribulation.

The taking and being left happens the same time. Christ returns when the GT is over, takes people in the rapture and those left behind suffer the vials of wrath.

 

[Underwhosewings]

The full extent and length of the trib is 42 months or 3.5 years (Rev 13), not double that. The trib is not split in half.




The taking and being left happens the same time. Christ returns when the GT is over, takes people in the rapture and those left behind suffer the vials of wrath.

(Seems to be a lot of suffering here.
But Gods grace is sufficient)

Revelation chapter 6 to chapter 10
Is The first 3 1/2 years
Jesus calls it,
“Beginning of sorrows” Matt 24:5-8
The first 4 Seals.
Peace taken from the earth,
Famine
Pestilence
1/4 of world population die from,
Wars
Hunger
Pestilence
Beasts.
5th Seal, souls of those who were slain for the word of God and their testimony cry out,
Revelation 6:10 KJV
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
6th seal
Great earthquake, etc etc

Rev 10, the seventh trump = last trump
Saints are caught up to meet the Lord in the air.
1 Thessalonians 4:17 KJV
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:52 KJV
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Revelation chapter 11 to chapter 19
Is the second 3 1/2 years.
AC now reigning
Holy city trodden down.
Two witnesses
“The remnant of her seed” (left behind but now they repent and keep the word of God)
Martyrs.
Revelation 13:7 KJV
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

End of the 7 year period
The Lord returns to earth.

Revelation 19:11-15 KJV
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
[15] And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Zechariah 14:3-5 KJV
Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
[4] And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
[5] And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

 

[presidente]

No.

Recall, I'd placed a reminder at the end of that post, saying that the number "40" = "judgment / trial / testing" (and that's exactly what Rev6-19 is talking about (what we commonly call the 7-yr Tribulation Period, aka the "70th Week" of Daniel [Dan9:27a(,26b)]]);

example: see the wording in Rev3:10 "... I also will keep thee from the hour of TESTING [/TEMPTATION / TRIAL]... to TRY THEM that dwell/dwelling [G2730] upon the earth"... (speaking of the events which will unfold upon the earth between chpt 4 and His RETURN to the earth in Rev19).

... my point was about this (topic we were discussing) being the same "pattern" (not to say the future prophecy [i.e. the FUTURE aspects of Rev] must take place exactly in the same length of time, "40 days"... uh, nope. Not what I was suggesting there, see.

"40" = "TRIAL / TESTING / JUDGMENT," see.

That's the thing I'm pointing out about the sequence and pattern, of what we were discussing.

When you have to resort to stretching so much with allegorical interpretation to support a supposedly literalist system, you should consider taking the scripture at face value and going with a straightfoward interpretation of the text.

 

[presidente]

What you are suggesting here, is that perhaps Jesus wanted MM to "hurry up and do the task of SAYING UNTO My brethren, I will be ascending some 40 days from now... and by the way, FOR THAT REASON, do not touch [or even 'cling'] to Me, because I've not yet ascended... but I WILL be ascending, in some 40 days from now. Now, HURRY, Mary, coz... well, for no real reason really, just HURRY to that task I've given you to do for no real reason, it's just important that you SAY UNTO them 'I'm ascending in 40 days'... coz I don't really wanna say it to them Myself, this evening, when I come into them where they'll be meeting togethere and I say TO THEM "HANDLE ME..." even though I just told you it's very important that YOU don't "touch [or even 'cling'] to Me coz I'm ascending IN FORTY DAYS' TIME".

40 days is not a lot of time. Consider the mission Jesus was preparing the apostles for. And don't you think sending Mary Magdalene to tell that He would ascend before He spoke to them was a part of the divine plan. In another Gospel we read that when the women told them, they did not believe it. The Lord had told them about His resurrection beforehand. Sending Mary with this news exposed unbelief among the apostles. Don't you think that was a part of the process.

It doesn't tell us exactly what was going on in the scene, but Mary must have really loved Jesus, and there He was, alive again in front of her. She could have been touching him all over, assuring herself that He was alive or just overcome with emotion. She could have been hugging his legs or feet. He was still there, and hadn't left for the Father. She didn't have to keep touching Him-- whether that was hugging him to make sure He stayed there, or whatever scenario that we aren't told in the passage.

The ascension is a big deal. To make up the idea that Jesus ascended after He said this, based on such scant information, is highly speculative and unjustified for such a big doctrine. The ascension is recorded in Acts.

 

[presidente]

He will return in the middle of the last seven years, to “rapture” His overcomers/saints, only then can the Antichrist rule, for the last 3 1/2 yrs.

Acts 14:22 KJV
Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Can you show me where in the Bible that it teaches that Jesus returns in the middle of the last seven years. I see the Rider on the White Horse passage toward the end of the book of Revelation. I don't see a passage where Jesus comes back in the middle of it. Where is that located, or what other scripture do you get this from?

 

[ewq1938]

Revelation chapter 6 to chapter 10
Is The first 3 1/2 years

That isn't biblical. The trib begins in Rev 13 and says the beast only has 42 months. The end of the 42 months is found in Rev 11, and when it ends Christ returns. The total length of the trib from start to end is 42 months.

 

[Truthnightmare]

That isn't biblical. The trib begins in Rev 13 and says the beast only has 42 months. The end of the 42 months is found in Rev 11, and when it ends Christ returns. The total length of the trib from start to end is 42 months.

I’m getting 42 months for the first half, and 5 months for the second. Still crunching numbers.

 

[Nehemiah6]

The Bible mentions the coming of Christ many times. Asserting that Christ comes back two more times is a pretty big deal.

You were focused on how many times Christ ascended to Heaven after His resurrection. It was at least two times. The first time if you recall is when He told Mary Magdalene not to touch Him. But the Bible is very clear that afterwards Christ spent 40 days on earth teaching His apostles. It is only after that that He finally ascended.

 

[Mem]

The people who are raptured leave the ground of the earth and are brought up to the clouds to meet Jesus so some people do leave the earth for a brief time but only to be gathered from wherever they are on the earth to one place in the sky/air where the clouds are.

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Not necessarily. I see it this way. We which are alive and remain shall be caught up (gathered) together with them; here together and with them are adverbs describing how we shall be caught up, together with them, and; in the clouds is and adjective that describes 'them,' as they will be coming in the clouds with Him (especially considering that scripture says that He is coming with His saints) sp, We who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them to meet the Lord; here, I'm still undecide whether 'in the air' is an adjective describing the Lord or an adverb describing the 'meeting.' We (who are alive and remain with our feet on the earth) could very well all meet together with them (who are in the clouds) to meet the LORD (who will be in the air) and all fall down in worship when His feet touch down and cleaves the mount in two.

 

[Mem]

The context does not support that:

1Th 4:17 Then we (PEOPLE) which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them (PEOPLE) in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The clouds are clearly a destination where some people are, and where some people are going to be. Clouds here are not also representative of people since the people are mentioned already and are said to be going to the clouds, plus it mentioned teh air as well as being CAUGHT UP, where air and clouds are.

The rapture is an event where people all around the Earth (on the ground) will be lifted up in the air as high as the white/dark clouds that we can see way up there. It is the same area in the sky that Jesus will be seen at so it shouldn't be a shocking concept.

I meant to add this content to my previous reply also.

 

[Truthnightmare]

Not necessarily. I see it this way. We which are alive and remain shall be caught up (gathered) together with them; here together and with them are adverbs describing how we shall be caught up, together with them, and; in the clouds is and adjective that describes 'them,' as they will be coming in the clouds with Him (especially considering that scripture says that He is coming with His saints) sp, We who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them to meet the Lord; here, I'm still undecide whether 'in the air' is an adjective describing the Lord or an adverb describing the 'meeting.' We (who are alive and remain with our feet on the earth) could very well all meet together with them (who are in the clouds) to meet the LORD (who will be in the air) and all fall down in worship when His feet touch down and cleaves the mount in two.

Heya,
One of the problems I see, is the subject is not about a rapture.
1Thes 4:13-18
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant#1, brethren, concerning them which are asleep#2, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again#1, even so them also which sleep in Jesus#2 will God bring with him

​

 

[Mem]

Heya,
One of the problems I see, is the subject is not about a rapture.
1Thes 4:13-18
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant#1, brethren, concerning them which are asleep#2, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again#1, even so them also which sleep in Jesus#2 will God bring with him

​

I'm having a time with that understanding also, why would God bring those with Him if we're all just going to go back where they already were.
I looked up the Strong's Lexicon and, although the first "in" as, "in the clouds" can be excluded as an adverbial phrase so it is shown to solely be describing "them" but the latter "in,' as "in the air" is mentioned as, "also in adverbial phrases' so it is possible that is referring to where the meeting is but not definitively.