There will be no Rapture!!!

[NEWTOCHRISTIANITY]

You want to see harsh?
Harsh, from someone filled with the Spirit, no less?

From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, ​

and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, ​

and be raised the third day.​

​

Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, ​

“Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”​

​

But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! ​

You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, ​

but the things of men.” Matthew 16:21-23​

Was not the Lord loving Peter in telling Peter - not sparing Peter's feelings - about what
it was that could end up destroying Peter's walk with God?

And, later?

Jesus tells them all to love one another as He had loved them?

We have been pampered way too much...
Are we not to fight the good fight?

Harsh, but honest.
When 'harsh' is called for.

Harsh, but fair.
When 'harsh' is called for.



grace and peace ................

@Genez : Great post!!

 

[Musicmaster]

There is no doubt what John wrote is "Inspired of Yah." And there should be no doubt that what the Disciples of John wrote were taught to them by John, who was "Inspired by Yah." And they are literally repeating the understanding of an "Inspired by Yah" man. Which doesn't get much closer to the truth than that. John's Disciples are not saying anything that John, who was "Inspired by Yah," would have said and believed. You just refuse to admit that.

The Apostle John in his writings literally said the same thing Jesus said while on Earth teaching John. John's Disciples in their writings are literally saying the same thing the Apostle John said while on Earth teaching them. But you reject it because they clarify that your beliefs are wrong.

This is why I will continue to bring it up. They are repeating John's words like John repeated Jesus words and their words disagree with your personal beliefs. That's hilarious. That means if they were alive right now they would say you're following a "False Doctrine." To me, it doesn't get any funnier than that

I thought that you would know better than to perpetrate an affirmation of the consequent fallacy, also known as the confusion of necessity and sufficiency. If you don't know what that means, then I will explain further, although I would think that you would, as I said, already know this.

In other words, your conclusion is something you are trying to force into the same credible status as the premises. Claiming that those taught by John wrote what is on the level of inspired scripture, that's utter folly and the irrational, knee jerk go-to of the ignorant masses out there who have no desire to think more deeply about such claim types.

Also, the claim that John was made a Bishop, that's nothing but fables, claimed by a small minority who seem to dabble in wishful thinking more than spiritual insight.

MM

 

[Genez]

Lord....

Why do we sometimes get caught up in petty arguments?

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

I thought that you would know better than to perpetrate an affirmation of the consequent fallacy, also known as the confusion of necessity and sufficiency. If you don't know what that means, then I will explain further, although I would think that you would, as I said, already know this.

In other words, your conclusion is something you are trying to force into the same credible status as the premises. Claiming that those taught by John wrote what is on the level of inspired scripture, that's utter folly and the irrational, knee jerk go-to of the ignorant masses out there who have no desire to think more deeply about such claim types.

Also, the claim that John was made a Bishop, that's nothing but fables, claimed by a small minority who seem to dabble in wishful thinking more than spiritual insight.

MM

God Himself gives John the sins of these 7 Churches began by Paul and John goes to Ephesus and writes his 3 Epistles while overseeing these Churches with his disciples who multiple Church Fathers claim. John even writes the sins of these 7 Churches in Revelation for everyone to know. And you call it fables which is basically denying why Jesus gave John the sins of these Churches to deal with.

You are indeed more of a Jew than you actually admit to!

 

[Musicmaster]

God Himself gives John the sins of these 7 Churches began by Paul and John goes to Ephesus and writes his 3 Epistles while overseeing these Churches with his disciples who multiple Church Fathers claim. John even writes the sins of these 7 Churches in Revelation for everyone to know. And you call it fables which is basically denying why Jesus gave John the sins of these Churches to deal with.

You are indeed more of a Jew than you actually admit to!

I thought our orthodox relatives embraced all kinds of fabled beliefs and traditions not at all inspired by Yah, and believed those fabled teachings to be on the same level as inspiration... So many of them still harbor deep reverence for their "rabbis," even though Yah inspired it to be written to NOT be called such, but it continues to this day. The so-called "rabbis" in my circles of family and acquaintances don't like it that I refuse to call them by that title, and they like even less Who said to not call them by that title and others.

So, its ok that you find some sort of credibility to those fables and their claim of John allegedly being sent to straighten out those two churches that had nothing good said about them. Believe whatsoever you wish, and even that there is proof for such, none of which was inspired on the level of scripture. I doubt that John would be so cheeky as to claim that ALL his writings were inspired, stacked over against his own thoughts and proclivities. None of that matters. Those early "fathers" had some strange beliefs that do not at all align with inspired scripture, and so I reject them all.

Abraham did indeed speak truly when within the bode of the dead in Sheol, before being led free by the Lord:

Luke 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

The horrid practice that basically states that the inspired scriptures are not enough, and therefore the need to have the itching ears scratched with the infectious abrasives of additional crap from men no longer inspired to write what is to be embraced by the Church as having originated from Yah...no thanks. You have already laughed and jeered at John for what he did write under inspiration, and so your adherence to what he MAY have written afterward that was not under inspiration, go for it.

MM

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

I thought our orthodox relatives embraced all kinds of fabled beliefs and traditions not at all inspired by Yah, and believed those fabled teachings to be on the same level as inspiration...

The rest of your post I pretty much agree with and in fact all of your post I pretty much agree with. But I read this portion and something struck me about this when we research our history. We tend to think that a group of RCC men voted in 325 AD formatting the Nicene Creed as the formalization of the Canon.

But in truth, well before Jesus arrived onto the scene we already had an established Canon. And what's interesting, we even had a written material that went into great detail about the Creation, the Garden, Adam and Eve, the Serpent, covered all the way until Moses led the Israelites out of Egypt and was given the 2 Tablets of the Moral Commandments [10 Commandments]. This Book has even been mentioned by Joshua and David. It existed before God gave Moses the Torah. Obviously, I am talking about the Book of Jasher. And without doubt it is an excellent source that fills in many blanks we do not read in the Torah. Where we just get God led the people from here to there in the Torah, in Jasher, we get names involved and such. It's how we know specifically that Abraham is the great great grandson of Noah and great great great great great great Grandson of Enoch.

So not all Books outside the Canon are bad. Jasher is indeed an excellent source full of ""supportive"" truths that fills in the blanks we don't get by just reading the Torah.

 

[Musicmaster]

The rest of your post I pretty much agree with and in fact all of your post I pretty much agree with. But I read this portion and something struck me about this when we research our history. We tend to think that a group of RCC men voted in 325 AD formatting the Nicene Creed as the formalization of the Canon.

But in truth, well before Jesus arrived onto the scene we already had an established Canon. And what's interesting, we even had a written material that went into great detail about the Creation, the Garden, Adam and Eve, the Serpent, covered all the way until Moses led the Israelites out of Egypt and was given the 2 Tablets of the Moral Commandments [10 Commandments]. This Book has even been mentioned by Joshua and David. It existed before God gave Moses the Torah. Obviously, I am talking about the Book of Jasher. And without doubt it is an excellent source that fills in many blanks we do not read in the Torah. Where we just get God led the people from here to there in the Torah, in Jasher, we get names involved and such. It's how we know specifically that Abraham is the great great grandson of Noah and great great great great great great Grandson of Enoch.

So not all Books outside the Canon are bad. Jasher is indeed an excellent source full of ""supportive"" truths that fills in the blanks we don't get by just reading the Torah.

As with many of my Jewish family, we don't hold to the copies of Jasher still in existence today as being absolutely reliable. Yes, there were/are so-called "rabbinical authorities" in the world who are lauded as being authorities over their declarations about that book and others, but I don't buy it either. The "filling in" as you call it isn't impressive. We can do without it, and still have what it necessary.

Before I was aware and filled with the promised instruction of Holy Spirit, I too scrambled about, trying to latch onto every piece of ancient literature I could that seemed to validate my own sense of doctrinal well-being, but when Holy Spirit brought to me the new birth, the release from those rudiments of men and their wrangling over authorities, it all faded away into the cacophony of voices demanding adherence.

MM

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

As with many of my Jewish family, we don't hold to the copies of Jasher still in existence today as being absolutely reliable. Yes, there were/are so-called "rabbinical authorities" in the world who are lauded as being authorities over their declarations about that book and others, but I don't buy it either. The "filling in" as you call it isn't impressive. We can do without it, and still have what it necessary.

Before I was aware and filled with the promised instruction of Holy Spirit, I too scrambled about, trying to latch onto every piece of ancient literature I could that seemed to validate my own sense of doctrinal well-being, but when Holy Spirit brought to me the new birth, the release from those rudiments of men and their wrangling over authorities, it all faded away into the cacophony of voices demanding adherence.

MM

No scrambling at all. David was full of the Holy Spirit and he read Jasher no doubt by the leading of the Holy Spirit. The other Jews were not in position to have oil poured over them and sanctified by a High Priest like David when he was anointed king. You just make one excuse after another like a typical Jew in the Wilderness does.

 

[Musicmaster]

No scrambling at all. David was full of the Holy Spirit and he read Jasher no doubt by the leading of the Holy Spirit. The other Jews were not in position to have oil poured over them and sanctified by a High Priest like David when he was anointed king. You just make one excuse after another like a typical Jew in the Wilderness does.

I certainly don't need to make any excuses for Jasher, because there is no way of knowing absolutely that the original has been preserved through copying to this day. If you feel that the flimsy boards on the walkway you're traversing are bending under your own weight...boards not at all designed to hold you up...it may be better to find a more solid pathway to wlk upon because kicking against the goad only mashes your own toes into the bones of your own feet.

MM

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

I certainly don't need to make any excuses for Jasher, because there is no way of knowing absolutely that the original has been preserved through copying to this day. If you feel that the flimsy boards on the walkway you're traversing are bending under your own weight...boards not at all designed to hold you up...it may be better to find a more solid pathway to wlk upon because kicking against the goad only mashes your own toes into the bones of your own feet.

MM

And I was merely pointing out the facts that before Jesus arrived these were manuscripts along with the Mikra/Torah Scrolls that existed.

 

[Musicmaster]

And I was merely pointing out the facts that before Jesus arrived these were manuscripts along with the Mikra/Torah Scrolls that existed.

The downplay of the Septuagint playing a major role in the synagogues in Yahshuah's day when standing and reading, the idea they were Hebrew texts being translated on the fly while reading, no, that's just too great a load to place upon those who read to the masses in the synagogues. It's utter folly, the fodder of dreamers.

MM

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

The downplay of the Septuagint playing a major role in the synagogues in Yahshuah's day when standing and reading, the idea they were Hebrew texts being translated on the fly while reading, no, that's just too great a load to place upon those who read to the masses in the synagogues. It's utter folly, the fodder of dreamers.

MM

Synagogue is for Hebrew speaking people who can read Hebrew Scrolls.
Josephus writes speaking Greek was an insult to the Jews of that day.
Even it is well known that Jesus spoke Aramaic for it was the common language and we both know has a lot of Hebrew within it.
Not sure why you're so hung up about a Greek Text that everyone but people like You know was not used as much as You claim in those days like it is for the English translators of today.

 

[CS1]

LOL it is funny to see so many use human rationale to dismiss the Supernatural Power of God with words like:

• fables
• traditions
• world flood
• Garden of Eden
• chariot of fire
• opening of the red Sea and the River Jordan
• feeding of five thousand with a few fish, some bread
• walking on water
• dying on a Christ and rising from the Dead

Yep, it's pretty far-fetched to believe the God of the Bible is able to raise all HIS Saints who are currently dead and who are living to be taken up to meet Him in the Air.

Those who are in contrast to the list above:

• The word of God is truth as it is said, and events are literal and contextual.
• Traditions passed down from generation to generation produce the historical narrative of the bible, geographical location, and archeological finds.
• proven to be true of a global flood
• faith
• recorded by an eyewitness
• documented by many eyewitnesses and word of God
• Eyewitness accounts
• Eyewitness accounts
• over 500 Eyeiwntesses
  

 

[ChocolateSheep]

Can I have a say in all of this?


KJV Matthew 13:24-30
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.


Jesus also made the parable clear to his disciples a bit later.

KJV Matthew 13:37-43
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;


38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;


39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.


40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.


41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;


42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.


43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.



This sounds pretty post-tribulation to me. I'm just saying.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ Hi @ChocolateSheep ,

It sounds pretty "post-tribulation" because that is indeed the CONTEXT of the Matthew 13:24-30,37-43 passage (i.e. His Second Coming TO THE EARTH... FOR the commencement of the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age, aka "the age [singular] to come" Matt12:32 had just spoken about).

IOW, "the kingdom OF THE heavenS" (v.24) is speaking of that.



The CONTEXT is not about "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" (which is revealed and explained ELSEWHERE).





The disciples' LATER question to Jesus (in Matt24:3) was BASED ON what He had ALREADY spoken to them about here in Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50 (re: "the end [singular] of the age [singular]"--when the angels will "REAP")--and Jesus' response is found in both chpts, from Matt24:4 through chpt 25-end, ALL of which is covering the Subject of His Second Coming to the earth and the specific, future, LIMITED time-period which immediately precedes and leads up to THAT.

That is, NOTHING in Jesus' Olivet Discourse is covering the Subject of "our Rapture";

EVERYTHING following 24:4 is covering what will take place FOLLOWING "our Rapture" (i.e. the [7-yr] Tribulation period--a specific, future, LIMITED time-period which immediately precedes and LEADS UP TO His Second Coming TO THE EARTH, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age).




So you are sensing that correctly, that Matthew 13 (its termination point) is a POST-trib CONTEXT--it just isn't referencing "our Rapture" in this passage/context. = )





["the end [singular] of the age [singular]" = His Second Coming TO THE EARTH, FOR the EARTHLY MK age, i.e. "the age [singular] to come"]

 

[Musicmaster]

Synagogue is for Hebrew speaking people who can read Hebrew Scrolls.
Josephus writes speaking Greek was an insult to the Jews of that day.
Even it is well known that Jesus spoke Aramaic for it was the common language and we both know has a lot of Hebrew within it.
Not sure why you're so hung up about a Greek Text that everyone but people like You know was not used as much as You claim in those days like it is for the English translators of today.

Being hung up on something is a two-way street here. I so happen to be hung up on the historic reality of the Greek dominance throughout the culture and therefore within the synagogues, and the presence of the Greek Torah and prophets within the synagogues. You, on the other hand, are hung on on the alleged "purity" of Hebrew throughout, even though most in that day spoke Greek and some Aramaic. Even though Aramaic is more closely related to Hebrew, it was still not the dominant language in trade and commerce among a mixed bag of the peoples throughout.

And, to go even further, the scriptures give to us no qualitative measure of languages. Hebrew is indeed grossly inferior to the precision of Greek and English. I'm not saying that you're wrong for having such a love affair with Hebrew, but I remain unimpressed by such.

As you try to survive the tribulation, since you and others here obviously want to be here for it, continue to contemplate language dogmas stacked up against historic evidence that is contrary, and perhaps we can continue to discuss this in Heaven after perhaps you are murdered in the tribulation period along with the first half of all humanity that dies during the first 42 months, or perhaps sometime in the second half up to whatever point your eschatology has highlighted as the alleged point of your bring raptured, which in reality won't happen.

Go for it. Enjoy as best you can, because that marrying and giving in marriage is NOT going to be going on throughout the tribulation with people dropping dead faster than flies, and the horrors of the wrath of the Lamb that's poured out from beginning to end. The sorrows in the hearts of those who come to realize they were left behind, it will indeed be a harsh reality. If I'm wrong in this, then we will both look upon it all as we will, and I will continue to trust in the Lord no matter what.

Job 13:15 Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him.

MM

 

[CS1]

Many people believe that the church will go through the Great Tribulation.

And some use the word of God to support their understanding. But why do I believe the taking of the church before?

Well, a few things :

• Discerning the times Jesus spoke about in context to the last days
• The days of Noah, the days like Sodom & Gomorrah
• the Lukewarm Church
• the dead in Christ.

What is the reason why many do not say, " I believe in the soon return of the Lord." Instead of attacking the Taking of the Church or what is known in the Latin Bible as the raptus =Rapture?

One is, that their deeds are evil, so no Rapture means I can continue to live as I do( lukewarm) and will not suffer regret by Missing the Rapture if I am not ready. As Jesus illustrated with the 5 foolish virgins.


Second, the Dead In Christ shall rise First. When Jesus calls them and they come back with him, that has to happen before the Tribulation period. Those dead in Christ have a promise from the Lord, and Jesus fully intends to keep it. So for many


They mock and scoff as Jesu said they would "


2 Peter 3:4

3Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts,

4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.”



There it is. they have grown tired and now have lost faith in what Jesu said He would do.

 

[Musicmaster]

The fairy tale of the pre-trib rapture originating with the Dispensational Movement around 1830, it is pure garbage vomited by the arm chair experts who reign over nothing scholastic. The Greek word "episunagoge," which is mentioned as the eschatological gathering of the faithful to Christ by:

Dionysius Alexandrinus (d. 264)
Eusebius’ historia ecclessiasticae.7.24.5,
Eusebius (d. 399), himself in demonstratio evangelica.2.3,
Cyrillus Alexandrinus (d. 444) in his commentarius in John.3.4.20

Metatithemi (to translate persons) is used to address the rapture by:

Clement of Rome (1st cent.), to describe Enoch’s rapture in his First Epistle to the Corinthians.9.3;
Irenaeus (d. 202), who says, “Enoch was translated, thus pointing out by anticipation the translation of the just and that those who were translated into Paradise, as a prelude to immortality will remain there until the completion of the age,” in his Against Heresies.5.5.1;

Methodius (d. 311) in his de resurrectione mortuorum.3.5, and
Hippolytus Thebanus (8th cent.) in his fragmenta.8c5 (both stating that a Christian’s immortality was to begin when their body was translated like Enoch’s);

Eusebius spoke of God figuratively translating Christians at the end of the age in his preparatio evangelica.7.8

The bankruptcy of uneducated claims for the pre-trib rapture of the Church NOT predating the 19th century, is known to be the fodder of wishful thinking injected into not only the Bible, but even into history itself. Many today deny the obvious, but they do so only at the expense to their own integrity.

MM

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Being hung up on something is a two-way street here. I so happen to be hung up on the historic reality of the Greek dominance throughout the culture and therefore within the synagogues, and the presence of the Greek Torah and prophets within the synagogues. You, on the other hand, are hung on on the alleged "purity" of Hebrew throughout, even though most in that day spoke Greek and some Aramaic. Even though Aramaic is more closely related to Hebrew, it was still not the dominant language in trade and commerce among a mixed bag of the peoples throughout.

And, to go even further, the scriptures give to us no qualitative measure of languages. Hebrew is indeed grossly inferior to the precision of Greek and English. I'm not saying that you're wrong for having such a love affair with Hebrew, but I remain unimpressed by such.

As you try to survive the tribulation, since you and others here obviously want to be here for it, continue to contemplate language dogmas stacked up against historic evidence that is contrary, and perhaps we can continue to discuss this in Heaven after perhaps you are murdered in the tribulation period along with the first half of all humanity that dies during the first 42 months, or perhaps sometime in the second half up to whatever point your eschatology has highlighted as the alleged point of your bring raptured, which in reality won't happen.

Go for it. Enjoy as best you can, because that marrying and giving in marriage is NOT going to be going on throughout the tribulation with people dropping dead faster than flies, and the horrors of the wrath of the Lamb that's poured out from beginning to end. The sorrows in the hearts of those who come to realize they were left behind, it will indeed be a harsh reality. If I'm wrong in this, then we will both look upon it all as we will, and I will continue to trust in the Lord no matter what.

Job 13:15 Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him.

MM

I have never once said anyone goes through the entire Tribulation. You speak so many idle words that you probably should take your Greek Texts and study what happens to those who use them on a daily basis. If you couldn't tell false truths you would literally have nothing to ever say.

Read this verse: 4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.


The Beheaded come back to life and Reign with Christ.


Where is the CHURCH at during this 1,000 years? 1 day = 1,000 years



Where in the Bible does it even say the Wedding Ceremony is only for 7 years?
Show me where it says it lasts specifically for only 7 years in the Bible?

 

[Musicmaster]

I have never once said anyone goes through the entire Tribulation.

I never said that you stated such. Please read what I actually said, which is that whatever you and others believe, if you all want to stay, then go for it.

You speak so many idle words that you probably should take your Greek Texts and study what happens to those who use them on a daily basis. If you couldn't tell false truths you would literally have nothing to ever say.

Whatever...

Read this verse: 4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

The Beheaded come back to life and Reign with Christ.

Where is the CHURCH at during this 1,000 years? 1 day = 1,000 years

Yes, I've seen this misapplication of the day and thousand years nonsense before, and will continue to see it from those who love ripping things from their contexts.

Where in the Bible does it even say the Wedding Ceremony is only for 7 years?
Show me where it says it lasts specifically for only 7 years in the Bible?

First of all, where did I ever say anything about a wedding ceremony? You yammer about me speaking idle words, and then you turn right around and do exactly what you accuse me of having done. Dude, you really need to work on consistency skills.

MM