There is no New Testament command to pay tithes

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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#42
Fine then. How about "a percentage of your choosing?"
Why mention percent at all

we are told to give from the heart, if a person gives 2 % from the heart, are they not just as honored as one who gives 5 or 10?

or should we give 5 percent just to give it even though our heart is not in it, so we can give a percent?
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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#43
1. The tithe PRECEDED the Levitical priesthood.
Already addressed.

2. Although the Levitical priesthood truly has been replaced by the priesthood of Jesus Christ, the Bible teaches that Christ still receives tithes as our high priest.[/QUOTE]
Already addressed.

3. The New Testament plainly teaches that God has ordained that those who preach the gospel should live of the gospel or be financed by it.
Yes, I agree. Nothing in the passage, nothing in any of Paul's letters, and nothing in any of the other epistles suggests that Christians are to pay tithes. There is instruction given regarding support of those in ministry, and for the needs of the Church, and for the poor. Tithing simply is not mentioned.

Tithing is giving back to God one-tenth of your crops and every tenth animal. It is part of the LAW and Christians are not under the Law. Tithing is NEVER taught to Christians in the Bible.

I'm not going to get into a long explanation of how the Holy Spirit works within us to conform us to godly behaviour in all of life, including giving. I will just say this: someone who is actively following Jesus and seeking to grow in their faith WILL give of their resources to support the ministry, the Church, and the needy, and that is what Christian teachers should be teaching. Telling people that they are under the Law in one place, but not in others, is just confusing. It's unrighteous bondage, and there is no room for that in the Christian faith.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#45
People,forget the tithe was an income tax, for the jews, and it was not money, they had to give a tenth of everything, no one even of those who teach tithing actually tithes in the pure sense of the command, those who say they do just show they have not studied what a tithe is.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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#46
Truth be told, EVERYTHING that we own belongs to the LORD, and we're just stewards of it.

If we're truly Christians, then we should spend whatever money we have in the manner in which the LORD himself leads us to.
That precludes tithing.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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#47
It is not wrong to pay a fulltime minister a wage, however it may be argued his wage should not exceed that of the poorest person in the congregation. This would make sense according to the equality attitude of wealth distribution the New Testament church.
That would mean he's getting paid a pittance. It ignores Paul's words about giving teachers "double honour" which is written in the context of income. I would suggest that it is appropriate to pay the paid leaders at about the average wage of the congregation.

By the way, there is no "equality of wealth" in the NT. Rather, they shared what they had with others so that everybody's needs were met. If I, being a poor Christian, am invited to the home of a rich Christian for dinner, my needs are met, but we don't get up from the table "equally wealthy". :)
 

Platosgal

Active member
Mar 17, 2020
282
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#49
It seems to me that
Paul had a job( Tent maker)
AND the money collected was for
Missions
And widows and orphans
No buildings
No programs
No organizations
No " Salaried" staff

Missions and the widows and orphans
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,614
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#50
Organization, financial management and budgeting is not unspiritual. We usually consider it part of being a mature responsible adult.
Agreed.

If your church suggests that each person bring a tithe of their income each week in order to support the church's mission to evangelize the community then it is a sign of an organized, effective plan to accomplish the task.
Carrying on from your first comment, I would have to say that any business that presented such a business model would be held to account, and would have its funding pulled very quickly for its failure. The church can use money to evangelize, but they can also do so without money.

Give whatever / whenever is a bit chaotic and usually results in "I'll give later" syndrome.
That is true, but claiming that a commitment of 10% is the only alternative is profoundly ignorant.

When someone is committed to their local fellowship as their family that they do everything with they will see their 10% regular contribution as the same kind of communal contribution as they read about in the book of Acts. Each bringing something on a consistent basis instead of a chaotic unpredictable fashion that can't be used to budget anything on.
They would also see their 5%, or 13%, or 8.72% the same way. There's nothing sacred about 10% under the New Covenant.


Lots of opinions and philosophies on this topic but when it comes down to making real life and ministry work and planning budgets a plan is necessary and 10% is a great plan. Why not just get behind the pastor's vision and together as a local church evangelize the community by funding it with 10% of each member? A 10% plan is better than no plan.
As I said before, it's not the only plan.

The 10% contribution from each member to support the work of the ministry of the local church to evangelize the world is a plan that is not going away.
However, that was never the plan. Nothing in Scripture suggests that it is the plan.

If you are neglecting your involvement with the local church because they teach tithing is a good principle to follow to meet the budget of the church and you think it is not spelled out exactly like that in the New Testament you are committing a much more grievous error by neglecting the assembling of yourself with the body of Christ and violating the law of love by doing so. You might be guilty of straining a gnat and swallowing a camel.
Assuming that everyone giving 10% is the only way to fund the work of the Church is also swallowing the camel. ;)
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,614
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#51
I've already broken the passage down in my initial post here.

Have at it.

Good luck.
No need. I've done the homework, and I know that your conclusion is incorrect.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#52
It seems to me that
Paul had a job( Tent maker)
AND the money collected was for
Missions
And widows and orphans
No buildings
No programs
No organizations
No " Salaried" staff

Missions and the widows and orphans
They met in homes, not expensive Buildings and temples,

sadly the church has gotten away from its roots
 
B

Blackpowderduelist

Guest
#53
Abraham gave a tithe or tenth to MELCHIZEDEK, the priest of the most high God, whose priesthood foreshadowed Christ's priesthood.

Again, scripture tells us that Christ, our High Priest, now receives tithes.

Who is he receiving them from?

It's a simple question...even if people don't like the simple answer.
Through Abraham to Melchizedek.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,614
13,863
113
#56
People,forget the tithe was an income tax, for the jews, and it was not money, they had to give a tenth of everything, no one even of those who teach tithing actually tithes in the pure sense of the command, those who say they do just show they have not studied what a tithe is.
I live in a farming area, and know that there are several well-to-do farmers in the congregation. I have yet to see a grain or cattle truck being unloaded at the altar at harvest time.

The church I attend is relatively well-funded, which means we either have a lot of generous people, or we have a lot of people who are under bondage to a legalistic misunderstanding of biblical giving. I sincerely hope it's the former.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#57
I live in a farming area, and know that there are several well-to-do farmers in the congregation. I have yet to see a grain or cattle truck being unloaded at the altar at harvest time.

The church I attend is relatively well-funded, which means we either have a lot of generous people, or we have a lot of people who are under bondage to a legalistic misunderstanding of biblical giving. I sincerely hope it's the former.
My church does not preach on giving unless it comes up in a passage of a book we are going through, except once a year, and they just ask for people to give (pledge) what god leads them to,

and we take in a few million every year most goes to missions
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,614
13,863
113
#58
A careful examination of Hebrews 7 will show that the one who "receives tithes" is Melchizedek, not Jesus.

"1 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham as he was returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, 2 to whom also Abraham apportioned a tenth of all the spoils, was first of all, by the translation of his name, king of righteousness, and then also king of Salem, which is king of peace. 3 Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually."

Melchizedek was made like the Son of God, not the other way around. Melchizedek remains a priest perpetually, just as Jesus is a priest perpetually.

"4 Now observe how great this man [Melchizedek] was to whom Abraham, the patriarch, gave a tenth of the choicest spoils. 5 And those indeed of the sons of Levi who receive the priest’s office have a commandment [a]in the Law to collect [b]a tenth from the people, that is, from their countrymen, although they [c]are descended from Abraham. 6 But the one [Melchizedek] whose genealogy is not traced from them collected [d]a tenth from Abraham and [e]blessed the one who had the promises. 7 But without any dispute the lesser person is blessed by the greater. 8 In this case mortal men receive tithes, but in that case one [Melchizedek] receives them, of whom it is witnessed that he lives on. 9 And, so to speak, through Abraham even Levi, who received tithes, has paid tithes, 10 for he was still in the loins of his [f]forefather when Melchizedek met him."

I have added Melchizedek in square brackets only to emphasize the fact that he is the subject. This is all about Melchizedek, not about Jesus. Only by not paying attention to the subject of the passage can one conclude that Jesus still receives tithes.

"11 So if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron? 12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also. "

Note that last phrase... a change of the law also. The change to the Levitical priesthood came with a change of law, and the change to the priesthood of Jesus Christ came with a change of law also. Christians aren't under the Mosaic law.

"13 For the one about whom these things are said belongs to another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord [g]was descended from Judah, a tribe with reference to which Moses said nothing concerning priests. 15 And this is clearer still, if another priest arises according to the likeness of Melchizedek, 16 who has become a priest not on the basis of a law of [h]physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is attested of Him,

'You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek.'"

Here is where Jesus becomes the subject.

"18 For, on the one hand, there is the nullification of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness 19 (for the Law made nothing perfect); on the other hand, there is the introduction of a better hope, through which we come near to God. "

Note again the change of the Law.

"20 And to the extent that it was not without an oath 21 (for they indeed became priests without an oath, but He with an oath through the One who said to Him,

“The Lord has sworn
And will not change His mind,
‘You are a priest forever’”);

22 by the same extent Jesus also has become the [i]guarantee of a better covenant."

... a better covenant of which tithing is not part.

Poor hermeneutics, careless reading, and preconceived notions lead to that erroneous conclusion that Jesus still receives tithes. This passage does not teach that. Further, it emphasizes and repeats that we (Christians) are not under the old covenant.
 
L

Live4Him

Guest
#60
Through Abraham to Melchizedek.
Sorry, but that still doesn't work.

Here's the verse:

"And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth." (Heb. 7:8)

Verb tenses are important in scripture.

"Receiveth" is a present indicative. In other words, what is being described is not only PRESENTLY happening (not long ago with Abraham and Melchizedek), but it is also a statement of fact:

https://www.yourdictionary.com/receiveth

Receiveth meaning

(archaic) Third-person singular simple present indicative form of receive.

1611, King James Version of the Bible (Authorized Version) Proverbs 21:11, When the scorner is punished, the simple is made wise: and when the wise is instructed, he receiveth knowledge.

With such being the case, whoever "receiveth them" was PRESENTLY RECEIVING THEM, and he was being contrasted with the Levitical priests who die in that it was witnessed of him that he lives.

Are you suggesting that Melchizedek was yet alive at that PRESENT TIME and receiving tithes?