The True Church

[Cameron143]

Yes brother I agree we don’t have to have a perfect understanding for sure

but what I’m saying is early before the law was given the doctrine of the gospel is hidden in scriptire . All we see is a basic understanding that they called on the name of the lord beginning with Seth’s line

“And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭4:25-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

But we don’t ever hear the name of the lord until Jesus is declared they called on his name then like we do now

We know they are called the sons of God who called on his name like we are

“which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭3:38‬ ‭KJV‬‬
( notice how Jesus genealogical line goes back to Seth )

“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬




a basic understanding that God made atonement for them after they transgressed because he makes garments of skin for them to cover thier nakedness and shame this requires a sacrifice of a living creature but we never hear about it until later he was always writing the book of life and his sacrifice was always understood

“And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭13:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus even hints at the fact that his doctrine is from before the law from the time of Adam before sin

“The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?

And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, ( genesis 2) that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, and said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.


And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭19:3-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Sorry if what I’m trying to say isn’t making sense in the early days of creation even as far as Abraham isaac and Jacob they weren’t under Moses law and it’s veil they were dealing with Jesus already but we arent shown the details and actual doctrine none of us really knows what Abraham taught or thought regarding doctrine behavior or anything he just heard what God said believed it and obeyed as God led him

Abraham was walking by faith before the law and after the law the same faith is available to us now but now we get the details of what they knew then

in Abraham’s time was the gospel , then later came the law , then after came the fulfillment of the gospel to the world

Your conclusion is what I was trying to say with my post. Sorry I wasn't more clear.

 

[Magenta]

And yet he still raised up the knife and would have killed Isaac had God not stopped it.
So whatever his understanding, it included the possibility of Isaac being sacrificed.

God had promised Abraham countless descendants through Isaac which could not have happened if...

This is probably one of the main reasons why Abe's faith was counted as righteousness.

He knew God had not lied to him, and that his son Isaac would not be killed.

Or so the story goes...

 

[soberxp]

This is a story about unconditional obedience to God, not questioning God's purpose, because God says good things and does no harm to believer.

 

[Cameron143]

God had promised Abraham countless descendants through Isaac which could not have happened if...

This is probably one of the main reasons why Abe's faith was counted as righteousness.

He knew God had not lied to him, and that his son Isaac would not be killed.

Or so the story goes...

What it tells me is at that point Abraham believed in the resurrection. After, he understood substitutionary death. But he still had yet to call God Jesus. Or did he?

Matt 1:21...shall call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins...

It's a weed point, but if Abraham understood everything, wouldn't he have called God Jesus?

 

[soberxp]

Isaiah
7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
7:15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

 

[soberxp]

I'm man uel
Immanuel

Uel stands for desire for God

 

[Cameron143]

Isaiah
7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
7:15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

This too would have had to be revealed to Abraham. Do you see it being conveyed to him in an account in Genesis?

 

[Magenta]

What it tells me is at that point Abraham believed in the resurrection. After, he
understood substitutionary death. But he still had yet to call God Jesus. Or did he?

Matt 1:21...shall call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins...

It's a weed point, but if Abraham understood everything, wouldn't he have called God Jesus?

Not everyone calls God Jesus. Some say Yashua, or Yeshua, Yehoshua, or even Joshua, and in Greek, Iesous (etc).

But let's get out of the weeds. Knowing or not knowing His name is not the same as knowing He would exist as Savior

Plus, I never heard of resurrected mere mortals going on to father nations

 

[Cameron143]

I'm man uel
Immanuel

Uel stands for desire for God

El stands for God.

 

[soberxp]

This too would have had to be revealed to Abraham. Do you see it being conveyed to him in an account in Genesis?

Genesis can only see God's plan for Israel, or for humanity, not in such detail.
But I think if it was God's plan, then God would have told the Abraham who carried it out,But Abraham doesn't have to tell everyone.

 

[Cameron143]

Not everyone calls God Jesus. Some say Yashua, or Yeshua, Yehoshua, or even Joshua, and in Greek, Iesous (etc).

But let's get out of the weeds. Knowing or not knowing His name is not the same as knowing He would exist as Savior

Plus, I never heard of resurrected mere mortals going on to father nations

My point on the name isn't the form of the name but it's meaning. Abraham wouldn't have used an anglicanized version.
And my point in going through the different stages of Abraham’s faith was to show that faith is an increasing thing as we walk with God. It matured over time and through experience. Just like ours...seed to branches.
If someone wants to believe Abraham understood every aspect of the promise he was given, fine by me. I don't for the reasons given.

 

[Cameron143]

Genesis can only see God's plan for Israel, or for humanity, not in such detail.
But I think if it was God's plan, then God would have told the Abraham who carried it out,But Abraham doesn't have to tell everyone.

That's pretty much the point I am making.

 

[soberxp]

My point on the name isn't the form of the name but it's meaning. Abraham wouldn't have used an angicanized version.
And my point in going through the different stages of Abraham’s faith was to show that faith is an increasing thing as we walk with God. It matured over time and through experience. Just like ours...seed to branches.
If someone wants to believe Abraham understood every aspect of the promise he was given, fine by me. I don't for the reasons given.

Language was messed up by God. He knows how to cleverly switch between languages and hide the necessary information, Or hiding a treasure for the eager to discover.

 

[Cameron143]

Language was messed up by God. He knows how to cleverly switch between languages and hide the necessary information, Or hiding a treasure for the eager to discover.

While I am enjoying our conversation, I'm not always getting the points you are making. Can you clarify?

 

[soberxp]

While I am enjoying our conversation, I'm not always getting the points you are making. Can you clarify?

Genesis 11:9
Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

God was afraid that human beings would live according to human's will, so he changed human language into many kinds of languages.

God created these languages and writings and knew how to switch meaning between them.

For example, the speech of the church
Church [tʃɜ:tʃ]
澈翅 [tʃɜ:tʃ] Clear wings

Don't you think it's amazing?

 

[Cameron143]

Yes brother I agree we don’t have to have a perfect understanding for sure

but what I’m saying is early before the law was given the doctrine of the gospel is hidden in scriptire . All we see is a basic understanding that they called on the name of the lord beginning with Seth’s line

“And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭4:25-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

But we don’t ever hear the name of the lord until Jesus is declared they called on his name then like we do now

We know they are called the sons of God who called on his name like we are

“which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭3:38‬ ‭KJV‬‬
( notice how Jesus genealogical line goes back to Seth )

“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬




a basic understanding that God made atonement for them after they transgressed because he makes garments of skin for them to cover thier nakedness and shame this requires a sacrifice of a living creature but we never hear about it until later he was always writing the book of life and his sacrifice was always understood

“And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭13:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus even hints at the fact that his doctrine is from before the law from the time of Adam before sin

“The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?

And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, ( genesis 2) that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, and said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.


And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭19:3-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Sorry if what I’m trying to say isn’t making sense in the early days of creation even as far as Abraham isaac and Jacob they weren’t under Moses law and it’s veil they were dealing with Jesus already but we arent shown the details and actual doctrine none of us really knows what Abraham taught or thought regarding doctrine behavior or anything he just heard what God said believed it and obeyed as God led him

Abraham was walking by faith before the law and after the law the same faith is available to us now but now we get the details of what they knew then

in Abraham’s time was the gospel , then later came the law , then after came the fulfillment of the gospel to the world

I'm obviously missing something you are saying here. So can you do me a great courtesy and in your own words tell me what the implications are of your final paragraph?

 

[Cameron143]

Genesis 11:9
Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

God was afraid that human beings would live according to human's will, so he changed human language into many kinds of languages.

God created these languages and writings and knew how to switch meaning between them.

For example, the speech of the church
Church [tʃɜ:tʃ]
澈翅 [tʃɜ:tʃ] Clear wings

Don't you think it's amazing?

I am familiar with the passage and it is amazing. Interestingly enough, we find the opposite of this at Pentecost.

 

[Cameron143]

Not everyone calls God Jesus. Some say Yashua, or Yeshua, Yehoshua, or even Joshua, and in Greek, Iesous (etc).

But let's get out of the weeds. Knowing or not knowing His name is not the same as knowing He would exist as Savior

Plus, I never heard of resurrected mere mortals going on to father nations

My last answer wasn't designed to shut down the conversation but merely to point out that it is impossible to know exactly what Abraham understood when Jesus said that he both saw His day and rejoiced in it.
I have been blessed by what I have learned from you and others in the discussion.

 

[aa31000]

There is ONLY one True Church or Assembly. The "Universal Assembly" which Christ is building. Only this aspect is composed of true believers, saved by God's mercy and compassion, through Grace.

All other aspects of the church or filled with both believers and unbelievers. The Universal Assembly is in full view as the Bride of the Lamb. No unbelievers exist within the completed Bride.

The Bride of Christ is the little flock( Luke 12:32)= the anointed=144,000. They are numbered. To sit on thrones as kings and priests alongside of Jesus-Rev 1:6, Rev 20:6.--The great crowd( Rev 7:9) which no man can number are not the bride.

 

[soberxp]

I am familiar with the passage and it is amazing. Interestingly enough, we find the opposite of this at Pentecost.

I didn't catch the meaning of the last sentence.
We are not obeying our own will, but obeying God's will as Jesus Christ did.

Maybe you're familiar with the story of the Tower of Babel,

If God let people build a tall tower, there is no modern elevator, it is not convenient to go up and down the stairs, will be tired, first of all, the problem of drinking water, If you carry water to the tall tower, you'll be tired to death.

And then people engaged in agricultural labor,after a busy day to home and then climb so high building, will delay the next day's work, you can not have a sufficient physical strength to do the next day's work


In the words of the Bible，psalm 18:27
For thou wilt save the afflicted people; but wilt bring down high looks.

Human's will is sometimes stupid in the eyes of God.