The theif on the cross misconceptions

[MISSION-IMPOSSIBLE]

Catholics I know do not live like that. There may be a small group that live like that. I am betting they are drunks.

Sin is deep-seated in those outsides of Christ. Sometimes, it is almost impossible to see it, but the heart of man is desperately wicked. Given the opportunity, ugliness will come out-- sooner or later.

 

[VARob]

Sin is deep-seated in those outsides of Christ. Sometimes, it is almost impossible to see it, but the heart of man is desperately wicked. Given the opportunity, ugliness will come out-- sooner or later.

Ugliness can come out in non-Catholic Christians, too.

 

[CorrectiveLens]

" Hence we say that the Lord Jesus is God of God: we do not say that the Father is God of God, but simply God: and we say that the Lord Jesus is Light of Light; we do not say that the Father is Light of Light, but simply Light. Accordingly, to this belongs that which He said I am from Him. But as to my being seen of you in the flesh, He sent me. When you hear,He sent me, do not understand a difference of nature to be meant, but the authority of Him that begets. "
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1701031.htm

The Father is God of all. All that are in the family of the Father both in heaven and on earth are baptized in His name and are indwelt with His Holy Spirit. ( Eph 4: 6)

 

[CorrectiveLens]

The second commandment states: " Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them nor serve them." Does the Roman Catholic Church leave this out in their list of the 10 commandments?

 

[Ted01]

The second commandment states: " Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them nor serve them." Does the Roman Catholic Church leave this out in their list of the 10 commandments?

Are we still under the Mosaic Law/Old Covenant?

 

[ResidentAlien]

No, we're not under the law but grace. But because we're under grace, are we at liberty to make graven images and bow to them? I hardly think so.

 

[Ted01]

No, we're not under the law but grace. But because we're under grace, are we at liberty to make graven images and bow to them? I hardly think so.

At Liberty, yes!

But then we wouldn't be showing God our love for Him, would we?

 

[TheLearner]

The second commandment states: " Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them nor serve them." Does the Roman Catholic Church leave this out in their list of the 10 commandments?

Saints and Mary are not gods, thus your proof text does not apply.

grav·en im·age
Learn to pronounce

noun

1. a carved idol or representation of a god used as an object of worship.

 

[CorrectiveLens]

The Jesus Catholics confess is a false Jesus. If you can't see something as elementary as that then indeed you are in trouble.

Catholics believe that if you try to be good, you will be accepted by God. Most of them believe that they are good enough.

 

[TheLearner]

Catholics believe that if you try to be good, you will be accepted by God. Most of them believe that they are good enough.

That is not my experiecnce with Catholics.

 

[KelbyofGod]

I can't say I've ever encountered the thief on cross / baptism argument.

I think the position you are taking is sound. The questions comes back to whether there are other valid ways to interpret the situation. And from each valid interpretation we can weigh the ramifications of those beliefs.

Consider these points:

If baptism is always required for salvation, is a newborn child that dies shortly after birth without the opportunity for baptism not saved?

If a mother experiences a miscarriage, is the baby without a hope for salvation?

If a mother aborted a baby (such as in the church of Satan human sacrifice ritual), does that damn the baby?

If a mother denies a child from baptism and that child dies prematurely, is that child cut off from salvation?

If something is misspoken during the rite of baptism, is the baptism void? How would a deaf person ever know if they are saved?

The conversation gets into strange territory of "salvation through works" which is contrary to scripture. And it also gets into the strange territory of humans somehow being able to deny eachother salvation through their works (e.g. the abortion example). The ramifications are enough to give me pause.

The idea that a person's choice to do evil could somehow deny someone else their chance at salvation doesn't seem right. Salvation in my view is a direct arrangement between a person and God.

The questions you ask still apply even if you think BELIEF is the only thing required.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[NOV25]

The thief on the cross misconceptions

I continually encounter people trying to justify that baptism is not an absolute necessity for one's salvation by use (erroneously) of the thief on the cross as justification, as he was not baptized but yet saved by the Lord, which is true! BUT, the error in this is the lack of understanding of the scriptures. You must read and understand Hebrews 9:15-17 which clarifies why the thief on the cross was saved by Jesus without being baptized. Christ was still alive when this occurred meaning it was done while the old testament or covenant was still in effect; the new testament had not yet been established because Christ had not yet died. And since the Lord was still alive no one could possibly be baptized into Christ under NT salvation criteria. Baptism did not become a requirement as part of salvation until the new testament began which was after the death of Christ. Jesus forgave the thief on the cross no different than he forgave others during his earthly ministry, such as the woman caught in the act of adultery as recorded in John 8. Baptism should not even be an issue when discussing the thief on the cross, but unfortunately always is, but in error.

Hebrews 9:15-17

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

That’s essentially how I see it. The thief entered by faith at the very end of the old covenant, similar to the way Abraham and others entered. 👍

 

[mailmandan]

Catholics believe that if you try to be good, you will be accepted by God. Most of them believe that they are good enough.

The Catholic Church Teaches Salvation by Works

http://www.justforcatholics.org/a14.htm

 

[Magenta]

Catholics believe that if you try to be good, you will be accepted by God. Most of them believe that they are good enough.

It is somewhat interesting to see this play out in certain people, like, the Mafia for instance, who mix and
match their strong family values with religious tradition while perpetrating all kinds of crime against society...

 

[Magenta]

Are we still under the Mosaic Law/Old Covenant?

No

 

[Locoponydirtman]

One thing for certain, the thief on the cross had a direct word from Jesus in person. A word that was for him, that is not extended to anyone else.

 

[ResidentAlien]

The Catholic Church Teaches Salvation by Works

http://www.justforcatholics.org/a14.htm

Excellent link. This right here says it all:

Canon 24. If anyone says that the justice (righteousness) received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of the increase, let him be anathema.

 

[TheLearner]

Ok, what was I going to say again? My surgery pain level today is 7 plus

 

[TheLearner]

Ok, what was I going to say again? My surgery pain level today is 7 plus

"
CHAPTER I
THE IMPOTENCY OF NATURE AND OF THE LAW TO JUSTIFY MAN

The holy council declares first, that for a correct and clear understanding of the doctrine of justification, it is necessary that each one recognize and confess that since all men had lost innocence in the prevarication of Adam,[3] having become unclean,[4] and, as the Apostle says, by nature children of wrath,[5] as has been set forth in the decree on original sin,[6] they were so far the servants of sin[7] and under the power of the devil and of death, that not only the Gentiles by the force of nature, but not even the Jews by the very letter of the law of Moses, were able to be liberated or to rise therefrom, though free will, weakened as it was in its powers and downward bent,[8] was by no means extinguished in them.

...

Canons Concerning Justification

Canon 1.
If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or through the teaching of the law,[110] without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema.

Canon 2.
If anyone says that divine grace through Christ Jesus is given for this only, that man may be able more easily to live justly and to merit eternal life, as if by free will without grace he is able to do both, though with hardship and difficulty, let him be anathema."

https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/li...-justification--decree-concerning-reform-1496

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I can't say I've ever encountered the thief on cross / baptism argument.

I think the position you are taking is sound. The questions comes back to whether there are other valid ways to interpret the situation. And from each valid interpretation we can weigh the ramifications of those beliefs.

Consider these points:

If baptism is always required for salvation, is a newborn child that dies shortly after birth without the opportunity for baptism not saved?

If a mother experiences a miscarriage, is the baby without a hope for salvation?

If a mother aborted a baby (such as in the church of Satan human sacrifice ritual), does that damn the baby?

If a mother denies a child from baptism and that child dies prematurely, is that child cut off from salvation?

If something is misspoken during the rite of baptism, is the baptism void? How would a deaf person ever know if they are saved?

The conversation gets into strange territory of "salvation through works" which is contrary to scripture. And it also gets into the strange territory of humans somehow being able to deny eachother salvation through their works (e.g. the abortion example). The ramifications are enough to give me pause.

The idea that a person's choice to do evil could somehow deny someone else their chance at salvation doesn't seem right. Salvation in my view is a direct arrangement between a person and God.

“Salvation in my view is a direct arrangement between a person and God.”

“between God and the believer “

offered by faith

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

arhats there to create faith not to establish requirements we’re meant to hear it and believe and then respond

“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the issue is what we hear and believe instead of asking “ is baptism a requirement ?”

We should ask “ what does God say baptism is for ?” And what blessing does he say it offers ?”

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,

and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If we were to ask those questions and accept those answers no one would have any issue whatsoever with baptism because finer faith is being constructed based on what God said, rather than us reasoning “ is baptism a necessaty ?

He doesn’t say “ if someone doesn’t get baptized they are lost “ nor “ they are still saved “

a what he said is made of faith so anyone who hears it and responds is acting in faith

a anyone who believes the gospel and is baptized shall be saved “

“Those who believe not shall be damned “
Our answer is to find out what God established for things like remission of sins , receiving the holy spirit ect and then we believe what we heard this will always lead us to act by what we believe

airs the belief that when I get baptized “ Gods own word says he has remitted my sins “

We need to always find out what Jesus established and believe

“This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

a when we hear the gospel it’s where we learn about baptism for remission of sins in Jesus name what’s in the gospel of Jesus Christ is most important to God

the beginning of the gospel

“John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the church after the cross

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,

and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”

Peter is. Ow preaching that baptism for remission offers the Holy Spirit

ps a baby can’t hear and believe the gospel and aren’t accountable for sin anyways