"The Soul That Sinneth, It SHALL Die."

[Pilgrimshope]

Your argument which is bound up in the question of proximity is PURELY SUBJECTIVE. Show us where it means "near the core of the Earth", please. "Hades" and "Sheol" are words that simply mean under the ground where the dead are placed." Why will you not believe the wisest man in the world when he says, "The living know that they shall die, but the dead KNOW NOT ANYTHING"?

It is you who reject the plain text of Genesis 2:7 KJV which says the Soul comes into existence as a consequence of the UNION of the Body and the Breath of Life, because to do so is to be confronted with the insurmountable problem of explaining how this same Soul can continue to exist at the DISUNION of the same.

"Our friend Lazarus sleepeth...Then Jesus said to them plainly, Lazarus is DEAD."
"Consider me and hear me, O my God. Lighten mine eyes lest I sleep the sleep of death."
No, brother, death is the CESSATION OF LIFE when the Spirit returns to God, the Body returns to the Earth, and the Soul ceases to be.

Does light continue to shine on another plane of existence when you remove the current from the bulb, or does it cease to exist?

brother does this suggest what he’s saying ? Or does it support what you are saying ? Jesus is actually the wisest man to ever live why wouldn’t you accept his word ?

“The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation, and condemn them: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, One greater than Solomon is here.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭11:31‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom:

the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭16:22-31‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Note he is not only alive after his death he is conscious and aware of the situation both his in hell and those he left behind . Man was created with a body filled with a living spirit , we have two aspects.

The life of man is his spirit , the flesh is only a vehicle by which to
Live our estate on earth inside to determine our future after this short test of faith we walk in this world

Jesus understood things we couldn’t but he made them known and said believe

“And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Magenta]

when you say God is immortal the Bible says he made man in his own image and breathed life into the mans body he formed of the dust the spiritual part of man cane from the immortal one. Whether we serve Satan or God in this world will determine our eternal home

The LIE Satan told to deceive Eve was that she would never die.

The lie at the heart of the fall of man and corruption of all creation is being told to this very day.

Man was not created immortal. Nor did Adam and Eve eat from the Tree of Life, which is made available to all now.
In fact they were prevented from eating from the Tree of Life when they were banished from the garden.

Yes, we are born into bodies of death, and can attain to life ever
after only through faith in the shed righteous blood of Jesus Christ.

would you say they both died ? And Abraham also has died ? Yet they both still were alive ? And even conscious seeing and hearing speaking , if you read on the one in hell is even concerned that his family doesn’t come there not believing . That’s not an image of peaceful rest or non existence at least , to me it suggests not “ confusion” but the truth that there are two deaths for man because one is physical and the other spiritual the spirit doesn’t die with the flesh it endures because it came from God who you are right to poi t out alone has immortality.

Yes, I agree they both died the first death, and that only Lazarus would not taste the second death. That is the purpose of that parable. Oh, I am well aware that many squawk about it not being a parable, but Jesus did not teach without speaking in parables... and some made up rule nowhere found in Scripture is given to try to discount it being a parable, told after a long string of other parables.

 

[calibob]

The LIE Satan told to deceive Eve was that she would never die.

The lie at the heart of the fall of man and corruption of all creation is being told to this very day.

Man was not created immortal. Nor did Adam and Eve eat from the Tree of Life, which is made available to all now.
In fact they were prevented from eating from the Tree of Life when they were banished from the garden.

Yes, we are born into bodies of death, and can attain to life ever
after only through faith in the shed righteous blood of Jesus Christ.


Yes, I agree they both died the first death, and that only Lazarus would not taste the second death. That is the purpose of that parable. Oh, I am well aware that many squawk about it not being a parable, but Jesus did not teach without speaking in parables... and some made up rule nowhere found in Scripture is given to try to discount it being a parable, told after a long string of other parables.

Moral allegories so un educated people and children could understand them.

 

[Truth7t7]

What in my response suggests this? Of course there is a place of torment. Some are beaten with few stripes, others many, the devil the most, but eventually all pass out of existence.

If the torment were eternal, would not there always be death, suffering, crying, and pain, things which Revelation 19 say will pass away?

If the wages of our sin is eternal torment, wouldn't Jesus have to be eternally tormented in order to spare us?

No, the wages of sin is not eternal torment, but DEATH. Jesus died for our sins, but because there was no sin Him, God could raise Him from the dead and He is alive forevermore -- but as for the wicked, they will suffer torment until the Second Death when their Breath of Life returns to God, their Body burns up into ashes, and they pass out of existence for all eternity in a death from which there will be no resurrection.

Well, your belief is Roman Catholicism which is baptized paganism whether you know it or not. Luther as well as many many Protestant Reformers believed what I present here as sound Biblical doctrine and condemned your position as non-Biblical and I completely agree with them. I hope that you reconsider your position and come to realize that we've all been deceived by the Serpent who told the very first lie in the Bible, "Thou shalt not SURELY die." Today, people are DEATHLY AFRAID to spend the night in a graveyard, a place of total safety because even criminals are too scared to go there at night. The only thing there of any concern might be demons which masquerade as "spirits of our departed loved ones", but anyone that knows the truth can immediately send them back to from whence they came in the name of Jesus.

Do you deny that the rich man went to a place of torment upon his death (Hell) as shown below in Luke 16:22-25?

Luke 16:22-25KJV
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

 

[calibob]

Do you deny that the rich man went to a place of torment upon his death (Hell) as shown below in Luke 16:22-25?

Luke 16:22-25KJV
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

I know several others here that believe a similar theory. I think that they call themselves annihilationist's. As in; the people thrown into the lake of fire will suffer a while, However eventually they will just cease to exist all together. I do remember one that got temporarily banned for posting what he/she thought about it.. Ooop''s (BTW, it isn't me.)

 

[Truth7t7]

I know several others here that believe a similar theory. I think that they call themselves annihilationist's. as in the people thrown into the lake of fire will suffer a while but eventually cease to exist all together. But I remember that one got temporarily banned for posting what he/she thought. Ooop''s (BTW, it isn't me.)

Annihilationism is a false doctrine of 7th day Adventist and JWs to mention a few.

The scripture us very clear on (Eternal Torment) as seen below

Revelation 14:9-11KJV
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

 

[calibob]

Annihilationism is a doctrine of 7th day Adventist and JWs to mention a few

I was still editing, but yes there a few SDA's here. Some are my friends. BTW, I'm a Mennonite.

 

[Truth7t7]

I was still editing, but yes there a few SDA's here. Some are my friends. BTW, I'm a Mennonite.

I know a few conservative Mennonites, good builders, carpentry, cabinets, furniture, canning!

Sorta sad to see the liberal turn in the Mennonite USA council

Lancaster Mennonites leaves 'progressive' denomination and its tolerance of homosexuality

JOEL SHANNON | YORK DAILY RECORD | 3:20 pm EST January 12, 2018

The Lancaster Mennonite Conference has left the Mennonite Church USA denomination, and differing views on homosexuality were a major reason for the division.

 

[calibob]

I know a few conservative Mennonites, good builders, carpentry, cabinets, furniture, canning!

Sorta sad to see the liberal turn in the Mennonite USA council

Lancaster Mennonites leaves 'progressive' denomination and its tolerance of homosexuality

JOEL SHANNON | YORK DAILY RECORD | 3:20 pm EST January 12, 2018

The Lancaster Mennonite Conference has left the Mennonite Church USA denomination, and differing views on homosexuality were a major reason for the division.

Well, we don't have a central governing body so, Some of our groups have cars and computers while others are stuck in the 17th century. Unfortunately some are Gay. I know of one church that allows a marijuana dispensary to advertise in it's newsletter.

Technically we are Anabaptists.

 

[Truth7t7]

Well, we don't have a central governing body so, Some of our groups have cars and computers while others are stuck in the 17th century. Unfortunately some are Gay. I know of one church that allows a marijuana dispensary to advertise in it's newsletter.

Technically we are Anabaptists.

Sounds like the rainbow flag took over, possibly the same reason the Lancaster Council jumped ship?

We are in the end times, if not the final hours.

2 Peter 2:6KJV
6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

Roman's 1:26-32KJV
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

 

[calibob]

Sounds like the rainbow flag took over, possibly the same reason the Lancaster Council jumped ship?

We are in the end times, if not the final hours.

2 Peter 2:6KJV
6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

Roman's 1:26-32KJV
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

No doubt about it. We are strongly against the worship of leaders. If there is a contradiction between a human leader and the word of God. We choose God and his word as the final authority, PERIOD!

We might get executed for it but we won't go to hell for it. People are too quick to jump on the "We must obey our leaders" band wagon. Is that why the disciples were beaten, stoned, imprisoned, crucified and left on a deserted island to starve? I know very well what the words say however, I also know what the Disciples did and didn't do. They were thrown in jail, ordered to stop preaching about Jesus. Released and went into the streets and did it again. They never bent a knee to Caesar. Don't get me started about King James. It always starts trouble, especially with Calvinists. King James sent them over here to get rid of them. Now they defend him.

It's after midnight now here so, "hasta la vista baby."

 

[Corban]

I thought I answered it, but I will reiterate:

A soul comes into existence as a consequence of the union of the Body and Breath of Life - it goes out of existence at the disunion of the same.

The "soul" is the "person", the "I", the "ego", the "self". It is not some entity that flies off at death, but ceases to be at death.

Then there is a massive problem, for the Bible tells me that;

1. the SOUL of our Lord Jesus was in Hades after His death. You say that it ceased to exist
2. the SOULS of martyrs cried out (Rev.6:9-10). But a Martyr is a dead man
3. the SOUL of a boy who was dead came to him in resurrection (1st Ki.17:22). How could it if it has ceased to exist?

"Soul" means "life" and death is the ABSENCE of life, not the continuation thereof. A "Soul not left in hades" or a soul that was "departing" Rachel, or a soul that "shall mourn in him" is simply a poetic way of saying a person is dead in the grave, not left in the grave, or in the case of Rachel, her life was departing her body.

The SOUL is mentioned 458 times in the Bible. It can feel emotions, think a problem through, and make decisions. I don't believe for a moment that it has poetic meaning. It is a very real part of man, and from Genesis 2:7 onward, man is always referred to as a "SOUL" (Gen.12:5, 46:15, Act.2:41, etc. etc.).

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The LIE Satan told to deceive Eve was that she would never die.

The lie at the heart of the fall of man and corruption of all creation is being told to this very day.

Man was not created immortal. Nor did Adam and Eve eat from the Tree of Life, which is made available to all now.
In fact they were prevented from eating from the Tree of Life when they were banished from the garden.

Yes, we are born into bodies of death, and can attain to life ever
after only through faith in the shed righteous blood of Jesus Christ.


Yes, I agree they both died the first death, and that only Lazarus would not taste the second death. That is the purpose of that parable. Oh, I am well aware that many squawk about it not being a parable, but Jesus did not teach without speaking in parables... and some made up rule nowhere found in Scripture is given to try to discount it being a parable, told after a long string of other parables.

death wasn’t Gods plan for mankind sister it came because they rejected Gods word and followed a lie that the fruit wouldn’t kill them like your saying . Gods will and design for us was to
Not eat the fruit so we wouldn’t die.

we disobeyed because he caused disbelief in that commandment being true . They broke faith with what God said to them , and followed what Satan said to them .

you see the commandment isn’t only “ don’t eat the fruit or you will die “ it’s also all Of the life and blessing and dominion he had freely given them before he even said don’t eat the fruit of the tree of good and evil. He said all of this

“So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it:

and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed;

to you it shall be for meat.

And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:27-

That’s the gospel After Christ removes sin As well

“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The same was in the beginning with God.

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:1-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

in the beginning sister man was made to live but Adam and Eve brought death of their free will in disbelieving God and believing Satan about the forbidden knowledge of good and evil

“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

..For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5:12, 19-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

death is something adam
And eve caused because man is not designed to have the knowledge of good and evil in us we are to have the knowledge of Christ in our nature and mind and heart , not the knowledge God forbid .

we aren’t meant by God to have this conflict and do evil it was satans will to destroy those who God chose to rule his creation on earth and loved from the beginning mankind and not the angels

“For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that’s not how God created us , satans work did that by introducing good and evil into our mind and heart opening our eyes to evil causing eventually

“And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.

The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:3, 5-8, 11-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬


We aren’t designed to be sinners and do any evil at all , Satan caused that in our internal mind and nature it’s why God created eternal Damnation for him because he led creation astray in the beginning and brought death to man through deception man believed him and followed that’s where death came from to man not Gods will

“And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and so anyone who serves his will in this earth ends up serving eternity with him


“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:41, 46‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Magenta]

We are designed to attain to life ever after by grace through faith alone in Christ alone to the glory of God alone.

If man does not eat of the Tree of Life, they have no life in them, and will suffer the second and final death.

We put on immortality through Jesus Christ alone. He was purposed from before the foundation of the world!

 

[calibob]

death wasn’t Gods plan for mankind sister it came because they rejected Gods word and followed a lie that the fruit wouldn’t kill them like your saying . Gods will and design for us was to
Not eat the fruit so we wouldn’t die.

we disobeyed because he caused disbelief in that commandment being true . They broke faith with what God said to them , and followed what Satan said to them .

you see the commandment isn’t only “ don’t eat the fruit or you will die “ it’s also all Of the life and blessing and dominion he had freely given them before he even said don’t eat the fruit of the tree of good and evil. He said all of this

“So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

And God blessed them, and God said unto them,

Magenta probably saw this comming as you are mixing two separate but similar stories together. Many of us here believe that Genesis chapter 1 stands alone because after God rested on the seventh day. Then comes the narrative of Adam & Eve. We debated over this here for weeks. Two different timelines and two different stories. Adam & Eves children married the decedents of Gen 1. They even came from different places,

Genesis 4:
13 Cain said to the Lord, “My punishment is more than I can bear. 14 Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.”

15 But the Lord said to him, “Not so[e]; anyone who kills Cain will suffer vengeance seven times over.” Then the Lord put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him. 16 So Cain went out from the Lord’s presence and lived in the land of Nod,[f] east of Eden.

He went to another land like a Bedouin and that others would kill him. What others? from where? Genesis 1.

“So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

 

[Magenta]

Magenta probably saw this coming as you are mixing two separate but similar stories together. Many of us here believe that Genesis chapter 1 stands alone because after God rested on the seventh day. Then comes the narrative of Adam & Eve. We debated over this here for weeks. Two different timelines and two different stories. Adam & Eves children married the decedents of Gen 1. They even came from different places,

I know some believe this (including you ), but Adam calls his woman Eve "because she would be the mother of all the living." When Cain "knew" his wife in Nod, it does not mean he met her there, that she was from there, or even that he married her there, or finally consummated their wedding there (as if they never had before). The text is simply telling us, that in Nod, they conceived, and it is their descendants who form the basis of Nod, for where the text says Cain built the city again does not necessarily mean he laid every brick and applied all the mortar, as some would take that to mean (which is perhaps ridiculous LOL). The word Nod means “wanderer, exile, or fugitive.” This corresponds to God’s word to Cain that he would “be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth.”

 

[calibob]

Well she did become the mother of all things because the descendants of her offspring (generations later) and the animals & critters in the Ark were the only land creatures that survived the flood. I was also advising him that this discussion went on for weeks until most of us got tired of it and dropped it.

Some believe the way you do and some agree with me and some think it's all some kind of allegory that never really happened at all.
You know I accept the fact that you could be right and I could be wrong.

 

[calibob]

@Magenta the other point is what he told them, (man & woman) in Gen 1 is different than what he told Adam and Eve in chapter 2 and my theory would explain why they are different. Me ,

 

[calibob]

We did successfully get some people to study the Bible more in depth. I'd call that a win-win, for most of us.

 

[Truth7t7]

A PROUD Seventh-day Adventist, FYI.

Anyone who argues "immortal soul" and "eternal torment" doctrine should be ashamed to do so, seeing that Paul PLAINLY says in 1 Timothy 6:16 KJV that ONLY Christ has immortality and in Romans 2:5-7 KJV says immortality is granted ONLY in the day of judgment to those who seek for it, which the wicked most certainly do not.

Do your really believe Ellen G. White had 2,000+ Dreams And Visions?


Ellen G. White - Wikipedia

White claimed to have received over 2,000 visions and dreams from God in public and private meetings throughout her life, which were witnessed by Adventist pioneers and the general public. She verbally described and published for public consumption the content of the alleged visions.

Founded: Avondale University College, Seventh-day Adventist Church