The Security Of The Believer

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Dec 14, 2023
390
65
28
Hi brother. Look at vs 15. Before He called them friends, He called them servants. Were they unsaved as servants?


When we are saved, we are servants of God. We need instruction. We need to get to know His will for us. We need to grow in His Grace and knowledge. When we Are prepared and know His will, we are then ready for the service He has prepared for us and we are called friends. Many, stay as babies in Christ and never learn how to communicate with Him. His intended relationship with us is communication and support. Sadly, many believers think it is a dictatorship. And many stay there their whole lives.

Hence, the law followers. Probably did come to faith in Christ at some time, but never advanced in His intended relationship for them.
Milk and Meat metaphor. I will look into it from this angle. Yeah, I can see that. But let me look into it deeper and will re-answer this post.
 
Dec 18, 2023
6,402
406
83
This is great here.
I've just been having a giggle with you buddy no offense to them Brits lol. Most of them turn there noses hahaha.

I did try black pudding once but no one told me it was dried pigs blood 😱.

I was well mad..

Have a guess what I called them 🤔
 

Kroogz

Well-known member
Dec 5, 2023
865
346
63
I've just been having a giggle with you buddy no offense to them Brits lol. Most of them turn there noses hahaha.

I did try black pudding once but no one told me it was dried pigs blood 😱.

I was well mad..

Have a guess what I called them 🤔
I think black pudding is banned in the USA? But we still make blood sausage. And I do have to say........It's not bad!
 

Bible_Highlighter

Well-known member
Nov 28, 2023
2,086
339
83
Well, you didn’t really answer my question. You’re referring to condemnation. My question is referring to salvation. —Who saves us?
Sometimes answering a question with a question is the best way for some folks to get to the truth of what the Bible says. If you answer my question, it will then answer yours.
 

Bible_Highlighter

Well-known member
Nov 28, 2023
2,086
339
83
The thing of sin is obvious but what makes things superfluous to me is that when one intends to work for his salvation which part is an excess and that needs to get rid of. James' core belief highlighted, that after one has been saved with the word of truth being “begat he us with the word of truth” James 1: 18, one is expected to do righteous things. No one is saying we do no righteous things after being saved. Btw, who did beget? the scriptures “he” and who is that “he”? It’s God through his word of truth. It’s never been us. If someone works for it then that is “superfluity of naughtiness”
You didn’t even appear to know about what the verse said since our last conversation, and now you want to move the goal posts to make it fit OSAS when nothing is even the context to support that idea. This is why it is hard to take OSAS believers seriously. They are not playing fair with the text. Filthiness of the flesh and naughtiness is sin. It’s not working for your salvation. That is about as bad of an interpretation one guy gave me on Galatians 5:19-21 in that he said it is talking about recruitment of believers and not salvation. There is real no point of continuing if you are going to employ such bad hermeneutics.

You said:
Let’s look at Isah 64:6 in the proper context. Good thing if we meet the Lord with our righteous deeds yet Isaiah says he was unclean, he knows he is a sinner before God, remember when he says “I am a man of unclean lips”?
Okay, Isaiah slipping up in a certain area of his life does not mean he was so corrupt that he could not change. See, your viewpoint is here is just silly. You have just eliminated a verse (verse 5) in the Isaiah 64 in order to defend the wrong interpretation. God is not going to criticize you for doing what He says. That is insane and moronic. If you create your own righteous deeds that God did not tell you to do in His Word, then that would be another matter. Ever heard of the verse, be ye holy as I am holy? Ever read Hebrews 12:14 before?

You said:
No one meets God’s standard. Doing righteous deeds or acts of righteousness is viewed by God as nothing, it is just like a filthy rag. Isaiah viewed himself and all have sinned though he does righteous deeds.
So let me get this straight. Are you saying Romans 3:10, and Romans 3:23 applies to the present day walk of the Christian?
I believe these verses only apply to only our past life of sin before we accepted Christ as our Savior and not after.
Why? Because if you are claiming you must sin again as per Romans 3:10, and Romans 3:23, then you must also believe you have no understanding and you don’t seek after God according to Romans 3:11.
 

selahsays

Well-known member
May 31, 2023
2,796
1,484
113
Sometimes answering a question with a question is the best way for some folks to get to the truth of what the Bible says. If you answer my question, it will then answer yours.
No, it won’t because these are two distinct subjects. Again, I ask you:
So, in a nutshell, do you believe that Jesus totally saves us OR do you believe that we have to help Jesus save us? Is the work that Jesus did on the Cross complete OR do we have to help Him finish it?
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,571
13,548
113
58
Again, you are ignoring words in the English language and how that works. You need to consult an English class. The word “If” sets up a condition. You don’t like the word “if” because it does not align with your OSAS belief. So you ignore it.
I ignored nothing, and I understand that the word "if" sets up a condition, yet I also understand that "if" also sets up a contrast in 1 John 1:6 and 1 John 1:7 between children of the devil and children of God, followed by a confirmation. We also see this same condition, contrast and confirmation in 1 John 3:10, yet this does not align with your NOSAS belief, so you ignore that.

If Rick said to Bob, if I show up your house by 9:00am tomorrow, I will fix your bike. This means that only at 9:00am will Rick fix his bike. If he shows up later or not at all, the bike will not be fixed.
Once again, children of the devil walk in darkness and not in the light and children of God walk in the light and not in darkness. "If" confirms these two separate positions in verses 6 and 7.

1 John 1:6 - If we say (key word) that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. Confirmed child of the devil.

7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. Confirmed child of God.

Elsewhere John sets up another condition, contrast, confirmation. "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9) (descriptive of a child of God) is in contrast to - If we say that we have no sin, (present tense) we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us (1 John 1:8) and - If we say that we have not sinned, (past tense) we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (1 John 1:10) - descriptive of a child of the devil.

Also, in 1 John 3:7-10, we see the same condition, contrast, confirmation. 7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who has been born of God practices sin, because His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin continually, because he has been born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. *Also see 1 John 2:9-11.

Furthermore, in 1 John 4:7-8, we also see this same condition, contrast, confirmation. Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. We love Him because He first loved us. (1 John 4:19) The love of God has been poured out in the hearts of believers by the Holy Spirit who was given to us. (Romans 5:5) Are you seeing the light yet?
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,571
13,548
113
58
No, it won’t because these are two distinct subjects. Again, I ask you:
So, in a nutshell, do you believe that Jesus totally saves us OR do you believe that we have to help Jesus save us? Is the work that Jesus did on the Cross complete OR do we have to help Him finish it?
Excellent question and the answer to your question is becoming more and more obvious. Speaking of helping Jesus save us, I was once in a discussion on a Christian forum with someone who also taught salvation by works and he once made this statement to me below in blue:

"It is works of obedience and not works of the law or works of merit that help save us."

Of course, that is an oxymoron and Christ does not need our help in saving us. Jesus Christ is an ALL-sufficient Savior. Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. (Romans 3:24-28) No supplements needed.
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
6,066
1,948
113
I think this is where the contention lies. I agree with you. And much more, the new nature cannot sin. Not even once. But if we quench the Spirit or grieve the Spirit.......we are living in sin, we are out of the faith....... Believers never entered the promised land. Some believers made shipwreck of their faith. Some Believers won't reign with Him. Some believers die the sin unto death. Some sleep from not obeying. Some are handed over to satan.

Imo, the majority of us live out of the evil side of our flesh when we grieve or quench the Spirit.And not overt sin. The evil side of us wants to 'work' for God. And we all know what the Lord thinks of our good side. I did it for 10 years straight as a believer. And, IMO, this is worse than overt sinning......How dark is it if we think we are in the light?
The apostle John said a born again one can not live in sin. Whoever does live in sin has never seen or known God.

I am just stating what he said..

I was a prodigal son for 5 years.. I walked away from the church.. But even then, I did not LIVE IN (practice) Habitual sin. And the sins I did commit.. The lord chastened me of.. So even then, it was difficult if not impossible to continue in even those sins..
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,571
13,548
113
58
George Sodini killed a bunch of people and took his own life because of OSAS.
So, you infallibly know this to be true? Only God infallibly knows the hearts of others. Does killing a bunch of people then taking your own life come from a regenerate heart? (1 John 3:7-10)

You don’t seem to understand the contradiction in your own belief.
I have no contradiction. You just don't understand.

If you say works do not save, then you need to consistent with that statement and say that a believer can have no works ever in their life when they live out their faith and they can still be saved by a belief alone in Jesus.
What kind of faith would that be? No works ever produced in one's lifetime from it? o_O That would not be genuine faith but a bare profession of faith. (James 2:14)

If you say works are necessary to show a true saving faith (or a belief alone in Jesus), then you believe like I do and you believe works are a necessary part of the salvation equation.
If works were a necessary part of the salvation equation, then Paul would have said that by grace we are saved through faith AND works in Ephesians 2:8,9 but that is NOT what Paul said. We are saved through faith at its origin and not at some time later, after we produce works. Works give evidence to our faith and are produced out of an already established faith. We simply show our faith by our works (James 2:18) after we have been saved through faith. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

This is very simple to figure out how your belief is self imploding.
I have shown this fact to you numerous times but you still are not able to see the contradiction or problem in your own belief system.
You are not open to seeing flaws in your own belief.
You probably think that what you believe is true and so it does not matter if the belief is contradictory.
But contradictions are confusion and Gods not the author of confusion in the body of the saints.
There are no contradictions in my belief system. You just don't understand for the same reason that Roman Catholics don't understand.

Again, you do not understand Paul’s motivation behind his words. He is refuting Circumcision Salvationism.
That is the same excuse Roman Catholics use as well in order to "get around" the truth and accommodate their "works based" false gospel.

Your Achilles heel is not believing certain parts of the Bible. You are trying to change certain words in the Bible to fit OSAS. Just let the text speak for itself and put OSAS aside. OSAS is darkness. Only Conditional Eternal Security is true.[/QUOTE] I believe all parts of the Bible and it's not about changing certain words to fit a biased belief but about properly harmonizing scripture with scripture in order to reach the proper conclusion on doctrine.

You need to put your anti-OSAS derangement syndrome aside and allow the text (in context and in harmony with the rest of scripture) to speak for itself. Works salvation is darkness. Eternal security is conditional on believing the gospel. (Ephesians 1:13-14) The true gospel which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and not a "works based" false gospel. (1 Corinthians 1:18-21; 2 Corinthians 4:3,4; Galatians 1:6-9)
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
6,066
1,948
113
My post before explained that. "lost the salvation they thought they had."

But the whole discussion is based upon us, as believers, judging someones salvation on our observance of their fruits/obedience. Which I think is very dangerous for us to do.

We cannot judge someones salvation based upon what we see. And His word clearly shows us that some believers do not obey. Do not advance after salvation. We can't judge someones salvation and say,"they were not really saved because they were or were not doing_______________. Because we might very well be judging someone who IS a child of God, but not advancing in His plan for them.
I do not think anyone is judging anyones salvation by these things in here.. If they are. I have not seen it

What I see in here is judging what a person is saying. As to not be the truth.
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
6,066
1,948
113
One of the points I was attempting to make is those in Christ are obeying commands "[14] Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you" that ultimately fulfill Verse [4] abide in me, and I in you. Whether if it is agreed upon or not, doing the commands of Jesus is a requirement or we are not His friends. And clearly only the friends doing the commands of Jesus will be in Heaven.

Look how Jesus says this, [14] "Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you." "If ye do whatsoever I command you." We are friends based upon if we obey Jesus. How can anyone say no works are involved here? Only if we obey His commands are we friends. This Verse 14 is an "ultimatum." You "do it" You are friends. You "do not do it" You are not friends. That is an ultimatum.

Ultimatum means, a final proposition, condition, or demand.

How are people missing this?
We are not missing it.

John 15 is about producing fruit. Its not about getting to heaven.

We should not think God is going to answer our prayers to help us produce fruit. If we are not willing to go do what he asked us to do.

Our children can be our friend if they are obeying us. And we will want to do what they ask. It they do not do what we ask they are not our friends. And good luck getting us to do what they ask

but they are still our children.

Once again. If obeying God is required to get to heaven, we are under law not grace. How many times does scripture tells us this?
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
6,066
1,948
113
I personally do not think it's possible to earn or keep salvation. But after reading Verse 14 I believe once we're saved we better be obeying His commands and if we do not we are not friends. And I believe only friends of Jesus go to Heaven. So, I do not believe in works salvation, but works to maintain friendship.
But your saying we must obey or we will not get to heaven.

That is works.

question. How good is good enough?
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
6,066
1,948
113
No, it won’t because these are two distinct subjects. Again, I ask you:
So, in a nutshell, do you believe that Jesus totally saves us OR do you believe that we have to help Jesus save us? Is the work that Jesus did on the Cross complete OR do we have to help Him finish it?
Yu will notice they tend to stay away from these types of questions.

It exposes them
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,571
13,548
113
58
So you agree with me that works are needed for salvation? That’s good.
Faith is needed for salvation. It's not about we must produce works in order to become saved but that we will produce works if we truly are saved. You put the cart before the horse, so we are not in agreement here.

If we are saved solely by a belief: Then you need to stop your contradictory belief and be consistent and say that a person can live out their faith without lifting a finger for God.
What I said is not contradictory. So, is that what really bothers you? Salvation is a free gift and is received through faith in Jesus Christ alone apart from works (Romans 4:5-6) yet you seem determined to somehow want to earn eternal life based on the merits of your performance (at least in part). You want credit.

We must not be like the Pharisee in the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector who trusted in himself and was confident of his own righteousness and looked down on everyone else. Remember, it was the tax collector who said, "God, have mercy on me a sinner" that went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.

Then your previous contradictory claims of having works to show a true faith is just bunk. No works should be needed to show a true saving faith if salvation is solely based upon believing upon the redemption of Christ alone.
Wow! You really just don't get it at all and there is a reason for that. :cautious:

No. You set up a contradiction and you cannot see it.
False. It's you who just doesn't have eyes to see. :(
 

selahsays

Well-known member
May 31, 2023
2,796
1,484
113
It says it right in the verse. It says filthiness and naughtiness (sin) is what we have to lay apart in regards to the saving of the soul. See also 2 Corinthians 7:1.
Here, you make reference to James 1:21.

Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.- James 1:21-22 (KJV)

We are saved solely by the engrafted Word of God, which is Jesus Christ. We cannot be saved by any other means. —selah
 
Dec 25, 2023
50
8
8
It should be noted that for 1500 years before the Reformation, there were many Christians who also believed in the eternal security of the believer. It is a solid Bible doctrine, but until Augustine the Early church Fathers did not clearly state it. In any event we cannot go by the writings of men.
  1. Reformed Perspective on Eternal Security:
    • In Calvinism, the doctrine of eternal security, often referred to as the perseverance of the saints, is a key element. It asserts that those who are truly regenerated and have genuine faith in Christ will be preserved by God's grace and will ultimately persevere until the end. The sealing of the Holy Spirit is seen as a guarantee of this perseverance.
  2. Early Church Views on Eternal Security:
    • While it's true that some elements of the doctrine of eternal security can be traced in the writings of certain early Christians, the formal articulation and systematic development of the doctrine, as seen in Reformed theology, became more prominent in the post-Reformation period. Augustine, an influential figure in early Christianity, did contribute to the development of certain theological concepts related to grace and predestination, but the full-fledged Calvinistic understanding of eternal security took shape later.
  3. Authority of Scripture:
    • Calvinism, like many Protestant traditions, emphasizes the authority of Scripture as the ultimate guide for doctrine and practice. The Reformers, including John Calvin, sought to return to the primacy of biblical teachings and relied on the Scriptures as the primary source of theological understanding. The doctrine of eternal security, as formulated in Reformed theology, is derived from the interpretation of various biblical passages.
  4. Historical Development of Doctrines:
    • The historical context is crucial in understanding the development of theological doctrines. Different theological concepts may have roots in earlier periods, but the formalization and systematic articulation often occur in response to specific theological controversies or developments.
In summary, within the context of Calvinism, the doctrine of eternal security is based on the interpretation of biblical passages, with an emphasis on God's sovereign grace, the sealing of the Holy Spirit, and the assurance of salvation for those who are genuinely saved. While elements of this doctrine may be found in the writings of some early Christians, the detailed formulation and emphasis on these concepts within Reformed theology distinguish it as a distinct theological perspective.