The Security Of The Believer

[achduke7]

No difference

If you have to work to get it or keep it. it is still works based salvation

No difference

If you have to work to get it or keep it. it is still works based salvation

Saved and Righteous people of God do good works.

Matt 25:34- 39 34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Not everyone that believes they are saved and sealed(Holy Spirit) will have the Holy Spirit.

If they have genuinely repented and believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, then they have received THE GIFT of the Holy Spirit. And the Holy Spirit immediately seals the believer, and also places that person in the Body of Christ.

At the same time there will be some who have given mental assent to the Gospel, but have not repented and been converted. Therefore Paul tells everyone to examine themselves. And the Bible says that the Holy Spirit will bear witness with our spirits that we are the children of God. If a person does not have this inner witness, he or she needs to obey the Gospel.

 

[John146]

Paul said this....Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith

Why would he tell people to examine themselves if they are in the faith, unless it is possible they are not in the faith (not saved)

Was/Is Demas saved? Yes, he just did not finish his course. He walked away from the ministry.

2 Timothy 4:10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.

It's not, examine yourselves to see whether you're in Christ or not.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

i really see no one saying you can work your way to being Saved or to maintain Salvation.

you point out you are a Branch, connected to Jesus, and your job to do the WORKS of GOD, not yourself.
[and get killed]
you are merely a willing vessel.
He LIVES inside You and all you're doing is letting Him control you.

if you do not, you Grieve the Holy Spirit.

how is that a Works Salvation or Doctrine when Paul writes in Titus, only the lazy, worthless, do that?

 

[Jimbone]

Believers can walk away from the faith, but Jesus will keep the believer saved.

I don't agree with you completely here, although we'd have to define exactly what you mean by "walk away from the faith". We may not do much in our walk in Him, or our motivations may be off as well, and on final judgement those works will be burned up and we will feel great loss over them, but that's not losing salvation.
Honestly this sounds like what you're saying so I do agree with you so far.
That's not what's being argued here, they are saying we can be saved in truth, and then lose salvation by not obeying enough. I'm saying I KNOW I can't walk away from Jesus, and I KNOW that no one can snatch me from His sovereign hand. They are teaching that "being saved" is a free gift but then sanctification is all on us and if we can't obey well enough then we are unsaved. This is FALSE and there's no other way to put it. Nobody is making the argument they are so passionate against when they declare what we believe and say that, "not being able to lose my salvation" means I go on a sin rampage because I got my heaven card stamped by God and now it's time to do as much wrong as I can without worrying about hell. I've never heard 1 Christian EVER make that argument, ever. Even when I was on the "you can lose salvation" side of this debate I NEVER saw anyone make that argument. All I'm saying is wrong is the "must" part when they suggest that "we are saved and then we MUST obey or we will be damned again" I reject that as a false gospel in Jesus name and correct it with "We are saved then empowered by Him to obey for His glory." He gets ALL glory and ALL credit full stop. When these people act as if it's them holding up their own salvation by obeying, that is them usurping the glory and credit that belongs to Him alone. That's false, it's not true, and it's a works based gospel period.

 

[achduke7]

If they have genuinely repented and believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, then they have received THE GIFT of the Holy Spirit. And the Holy Spirit immediately seals the believer, and also places that person in the Body of Christ.

At the same time there will be some who have given mental assent to the Gospel, but have not repented and been converted. Therefore Paul tells everyone to examine themselves. And the Bible says that the Holy Spirit will bear witness with our spirits that we are the children of God. If a person does not have this inner witness, he or she needs to obey the Gospel.

How and when was this gift of the Holy Spirit given?

Acts 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

Acts 19;6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Hebrews 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Now not all received the Holy Spirit from the laying of hands but many did.

 

[Nehemiah6]

How and when was this gift of the Holy Spirit given?

The gift of the Holy Spirit was given to all who repented and believe on Christ back on the day of Pentecost in 30 AD. And He has been given as a gift to every believer ever since. That is also called "the baptism WITH the Holy Spirit", where Christ Himself is the Baptizer (as revealed by John the Baptizer).

NOTE: The laying on of hands in the book of Acts was for exceptional situations. Today it is Christ Himself who gives believers the gift of the Spirit.

 

[achduke7]

The gift of the Holy Spirit was given to all who repented and believe on Christ back on the day of Pentecost in 30 AD. And He has been given as a gift to every believer ever since. That is also called "the baptism WITH the Holy Spirit", where Christ Himself is the Baptizer (as revealed by John the Baptizer).

NOTE: The laying on of hands in the book of Acts was for exceptional situations. Today it is Christ Himself who gives believers the gift of the Spirit.

Where does it say that laying of hands was an exception? In Hebrews they still preach it.

 

[John146]

I don't agree with you completely here, although we'd have to define exactly what you mean by "walk away from the faith". We may not do much in our walk in Him, or our motivations may be off as well, and on final judgement those works will be burned up and we will feel great loss over them, but that's not losing salvation.
Honestly this sounds like what you're saying so I do agree with you so far.
That's not what's being argued here, they are saying we can be saved in truth, and then lose salvation by not obeying enough. I'm saying I KNOW I can't walk away from Jesus, and I KNOW that no one can snatch me from His sovereign hand. They are teaching that "being saved" is a free gift but then sanctification is all on us and if we can't obey well enough then we are unsaved. This is FALSE and there's no other way to put it. Nobody is making the argument they are so passionate against when they declare what we believe and say that, "not being able to lose my salvation" means I go on a sin rampage because I got my heaven card stamped by God and now it's time to do as much wrong as I can without worrying about hell. I've never heard 1 Christian EVER make that argument, ever. Even when I was on the "you can lose salvation" side of this debate I NEVER saw anyone make that argument. All I'm saying is wrong is the "must" part when they suggest that "we are saved and then we MUST obey or we will be damned again" I reject that as a false gospel in Jesus name and correct it with "We are saved then empowered by Him to obey for His glory." He gets ALL glory and ALL credit full stop. When these people act as if it's them holding up their own salvation by obeying, that is them usurping the glory and credit that belongs to Him alone. That's false, it's not true, and it's a works based gospel period.

See post 103

Walking away from the ministry. Walking away from what the Lord has called us to do. That's "the faith."

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

if you don't obey and allow God to do His Works you Grieve the Holy Spirit.
so no, obedience, is not working, it's letting God WORK!

But your still sealed until the day of redemption.

3 times is says as such.

Question for you. According to the law. How many sins did you have to commit before you fell guilty

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

no one can get past this fact.

Jesus is the VINE
we are only the Branches.
what does Jesus do to DEAD Branches that are connected to Him?

He says they will NEVER DIE. they HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. They will NOT COME UNTO JUDGMENT. and they have been SEALED by the HS UNTIL the day of redemption.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Exactly. Not everyone that believes they are saved and sealed(Holy Spirit) will have the Holy Spirit. Perhaps they will be sealed in the future. Or maybe they will never be sealed.

I would go with the last.

If you never had faith you were never saved. Hence paul asked them to test their faith.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Saved and Righteous people of God do good works.

Amen,

they do because they were made new creatures.

Matt 25:34- 39 34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

These are descriptions of make believers or fake believers. they never had true faith, so they never had true works..

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

i really see no one saying you can work your way to being Saved or to maintain Salvation.

you point out you are a Branch, connected to Jesus, and your job to do the WORKS of GOD, not yourself.
[and get killed]
you are merely a willing vessel.
He LIVES inside You and all you're doing is letting Him control you.

if you do not, you Grieve the Holy Spirit.

how is that a Works Salvation or Doctrine when Paul writes in Titus, only the lazy, worthless, do that?

here is the issue

You are saying we MUST do the works of God. or we will get cut off.

Those works of God are you trying to earn your salvation.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

But your still sealed until the day of redemption.

3 times is says as such.

Question for you. According to the law. How many sins did you have to commit before you fell guilty

i don't adhere to the Law, like you do to your Law (Doctrine)

and i do agree we are Sealed.

Look at these Verses. they are predicated that Remain in God. when we don't we get cut off.
so, you present the Verse that says, we can be Sealed and not Obey God, or can continue to Grieve the Spirit?
because YOU know very well the Verses were [[only written]] to those who WILL REMAIN in God.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

here is the issue

You are saying we MUST do the works of God. or we will get cut off.

Those works of God are you trying to earn your salvation.

you understand nothing.

how am i earning something i have no way to achieve?

i said, GOD DOES HIS WORKS by using us.
if you refuse to let God do HIS WORKS through you, He don't produce fruit.
and the Branches in God that do not produce fruit get removed.


God, chose to use People, to do HIS WORKS.
so, He wants volunteers.
if you do not volunteer, God's Works cannot get done He has for you.
if He has to Pass the WORKS He has for YOU to SOMEONE ELSE, what good are you to Him in furthering His Kingdom?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

i don't adhere to the Law, like you do to your Law (Doctrine)

I did not ask you this

I asked you how many sins you could commit under the law before it cursed you.

and i do agree we are Sealed.

Until the day of redemption

Look at these Verses. they are predicated that Remain in God. when we don't we get cut off.
so, you present the Verse that says, we can be Sealed and not Obey God, or can continue to Grieve the Spirit?
because YOU know very well the Verses were [[only written]] to those who WILL REMAIN in God.

Again, how many sins can you commit under the law..

also. Tell me where paul said our seal can be broken before the day of redemption.. why did paul miss it?

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

a Preacher, is a good example of NOT DOING his works, but God's Works.
Matthew 28:19-20 tells us ALL PEOPLE could be doing same thing as a Preacher.

how can a Preacher be the only one God uses?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

you understand nothing.

lol, this is not my first go around.

how am i earning something i have no way to achieve?

If you can not achieve it, how can you lose it?

i said, GOD DOES HIS WORKS by using us.
if you refuse to let God do HIS WORKS through you, He don't produce fruit.
and the Branches in God that do not produce fruit get removed.

So God can fail. It is not us that fails. But God will take hi salvation from us even though we could never achieve it anyway?

God, chose to use People, to HIS WORKS.
so, He wants volunteers.
if you do not volunteer, God's Works cannot get done He has for you.
if He has to Pass the WORKS He has for YOU to SOMEONE ELSE, what good are to Him?

Paul said we are saved BY GRACE through faith. Not of ourselves it is the gift of God, not of work lest anyone should boast

for WE (those saved by Grace) are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

please not the word should is not there. It says we will actively walk in them..

before you try to tell someone they do not know something, you should make sure you know something first.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

I did not ask you this

I asked you how many sins you could commit under the law before it cursed you.


Until the day of redemption



Again, how many sins can you commit under the law..

also. Tell me where paul said our seal can be broken before the day of redemption.. why did paul miss it?

we're not under the LAW.
Aninias and his wife Sinned by creating the idea of deception, then by lying to the Spirit of the Lord, and both physically and spiritually died immediately.
^
that was seriously Grieving the Holy Spirit.