the Sabbath

[Aaron56]

Yes you do.

Your shining brighter than the sun itself.

You may be the first person to earn your way into heaven.

Not even Moses achieved that self righteousness.

Even Jesus stepped back on seeing you reaching that mark.

I have to try harder and I am riddled with jealousy.

When I am in the Son He is brighter than the sun.

 

[Inquisitor]

When I am in the Son He is brighter than the sun.

The important point is whether when you are in the Son are you eating pork?

There is a difference in doctrine and what is binding.

I pray that you boast in not eating pork.

 

[MeowFlower]

Post #3635

You quoted Romans 2:13.

I repeat, I did not write the article you did not read.

From the article:
First, let's consider Paul's own statements about God's law. More than 25 years after the death of Jesus Christ, he wrote in Romans 7:12, "Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good." In Romans 2:13 he stated, "For not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified." In Romans 7:22 he said, "For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man."

 

[MeowFlower]

From the article. https://www.ucg.org/learn/bible-stu...sunset-gods-sabbath-rest/sunset-sunset-gods-4


Is the Sabbath obsolete?
A third passage from Paul's writings, Colossians 2:16-17, is also used to support the claim that observance of the Sabbath is no longer necessary. Here Paul wrote, "Therefore let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come . . ."

Again, let's examine these verses' context and historic setting to see if they support that view.

Did Paul intend to say that Sabbath-keeping is abolished? If so, we encounter some immediate problems with this interpretation. To accept this position, it is difficult to explain how Paul could leave the issue so muddled by not stating that these practices were unnecessary, when these verses indicate that the Colossians were, in fact, observing them. After all, the Colossian church was primarily gentile (Colossians 1:27; Colossians 2:13), so Paul could have used this epistle to make it plain that these practices were not binding on gentile or Jewish Christians.

However, Paul nowhere said that. Regarding the practices of festivals, new moons and Sabbaths, he said to "let no one judge you," which is quite different from saying these practices are unnecessary or obsolete.

 

[MeowFlower]

Further reading. These blocks are excerpted. They are not in line with the published piece at the link.

us physical acts and symbols to help us better understand spiritual lessons.

These examples show that symbols and symbolic acts aren't strictly limited to physical worship in the Old Testament, but are clearly commanded in the New Testament as important elements of our worship. They are vital reminders of important spiritual truths, as Paul recognized (1 Corinthians 11:23-26). The same is true of the Sabbath. Jesus Christ, through His actions and teachings on the Sabbath, showed that the Sabbath rest is a type—a foretaste—of the great coming messianic age of peace, rest, freedom and healing.

Paul's point in Colossians 2:16-17, in saying that the festivals and Sabbaths are shadows of things to come, was that Christians must not let anyone get them overly focused on minutiae of regulation and strictness in observing these days to the point that they lose the big picture of the wonderful meaning of these days—the plan of God they picture.

As to the specific phrase in Colossians 2:17 that the New King James Version renders "but the substance is of Christ," there is no word here for "is" in the original Greek text, and the word for "substance" here is soma, translated "body" in the King James Version, as the NKJV renders the same word two verses later. So the literal wording here is ". . . but the body of Christ." This ties in with verse 19, which criticizes the gnostics for "not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body . . . grows with the increase that is from God." The reference here is to Christ as "the head of the body, the church" (Colossians 1:18).

Recall that Paul had begun his statement with, "Let no one judge you . . ." on how you celebrate festivals. He concludes the same thought with, ". . . but the body of Christ." In other words, don't let these others judge your manner of observing these days, but instead let the Church of God, of which Christ is the living Head, judge in this regard.

In Colossians 2:16-17, Paul isn't discussing the permanence or transience of the Sabbath. As a matter of fact, Paul nowhere quotes the Old Testament in Colossians. He uses the Greek word for "law," nomos, dozens of times in his other epistles, but not once in Colossians. Why? The continuing necessity of the Old Testament and God's law simply was not the issue.

Far from negating Sabbath observance, Paul's instructions to the Colossians, written about A.D. 62, actually affirm that gentile Christians were indeed observing the Sabbath more than 30 years after Christ's death and that the Sabbath is an important reminder of vital spiritual truths for us today.

 

[MeowFlower]

63, shortly before Paul's execution in Rome, covering the history of more than 30 years of the New Testament Church. It shows that, over a period of many years, Paul repeatedly taught Jews and gentiles on the Sabbath. Even though he was the apostle to the gentiles, he never hinted to them in either his writings or his actions that the Sabbath was obsolete or unnecessary.

To argue that the apostle Paul advocated abolishing or annulling the Sabbath, one must not only twist Paul's words out of context to directly contradict his other statements, but one must also ignore or distort Luke's written eyewitness record of the Church from that time. The book of Acts contains no evidence that the Sabbath was abolished or changed during that time.

In legal proceedings against him, Paul assured all who heard him that he believed in and had done nothing against the law (Acts 24:14; Acts 25:8). As earlier noted, he said that the law of God is not annulled or abolished by faith, but, "on the contrary, we establish the law" (Romans 3:31).

He concluded, "Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters" (1 Corinthians 7:19). That is his unequivocal statement: Obeying God's commandments matters. They are vitally important to our relationship with God.

Paul, in observing the Sabbath, was only doing what he told others to do: "Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ" (1 Corinthians 11:1). He observed the Sabbath just as his Master had done.

Paul delighted in the law of God...continues at source Linked:
https://www.ucg.org/learn/bible-stu...sunset-gods-sabbath-rest/sunset-sunset-gods-4

Bold colored text was my addition to this excerpt

 

[Inquisitor]

From the article. https://www.ucg.org/learn/bible-stu...sunset-gods-sabbath-rest/sunset-sunset-gods-4


Is the Sabbath obsolete?
A third passage from Paul's writings, Colossians 2:16-17, is also used to support the claim that observance of the Sabbath is no longer necessary. Here Paul wrote, "Therefore let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come . . ."

Again, let's examine these verses' context and historic setting to see if they support that view.

Did Paul intend to say that Sabbath-keeping is abolished? If so, we encounter some immediate problems with this interpretation. To accept this position, it is difficult to explain how Paul could leave the issue so muddled by not stating that these practices were unnecessary, when these verses indicate that the Colossians were, in fact, observing them. After all, the Colossian church was primarily gentile (Colossians 1:27; Colossians 2:13), so Paul could have used this epistle to make it plain that these practices were not binding on gentile or Jewish Christians.

However, Paul nowhere said that. Regarding the practices of festivals, new moons and Sabbaths, he said to "let no one judge you," which is quite different from saying these practices are unnecessary or obsolete.

They are all shadows including the entire law which was fulfilled by Jesus Christ.

Colossians 2:17
Things which are only a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

What are the shadows MeowFlower?

 

[MeowFlower]

They are all shadows including the entire law which was fulfilled by Jesus Christ.

Colossians 2:17
Things which are only a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

What are the shadows MeowFlower?

Rather than inquire or denounce, you tell us.

 

[Inquisitor]

From the article. https://www.ucg.org/learn/bible-stu...sunset-gods-sabbath-rest/sunset-sunset-gods-4


Is the Sabbath obsolete?
A third passage from Paul's writings, Colossians 2:16-17, is also used to support the claim that observance of the Sabbath is no longer necessary. Here Paul wrote, "Therefore let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come . . ."

Again, let's examine these verses' context and historic setting to see if they support that view.

Did Paul intend to say that Sabbath-keeping is abolished? If so, we encounter some immediate problems with this interpretation. To accept this position, it is difficult to explain how Paul could leave the issue so muddled by not stating that these practices were unnecessary, when these verses indicate that the Colossians were, in fact, observing them. After all, the Colossian church was primarily gentile (Colossians 1:27; Colossians 2:13), so Paul could have used this epistle to make it plain that these practices were not binding on gentile or Jewish Christians.

However, Paul nowhere said that. Regarding the practices of festivals, new moons and Sabbaths, he said to "let no one judge you," which is quite different from saying these practices are unnecessary or obsolete.

Paul did not need to abolish the sabbath when talking to the Colossians.

The Colossians were not Jews so they never had a sabbath day.

The Colossians were never in slavery in Egypt.

The Colossians never had a Hebrew Old Testament.

The Colossians were never in covenant to obey the law.

The Colossians never once celebrated a Passover, Booths, Unleavened Bread, etc.

The Colossians did not have a single Patriarch in their lineage.

There were no sacrifices and offerings to YHWH in the territory of Colossae.

The Colossians never had a temple on Mt Moriah.

Jesus was not sent to Colossae.

 

[Inquisitor]

Rather than inquire or denounce, you tell us.

You know I believe the old creation was the shadow.

Now your turn, what are the shadows Paul was referring to?

 

[MeowFlower]

You know I believe the old creation was the shadow.

Now your turn, what are the shadows Paul was referring to?

Your remarks about the Colossians reminded me of this article.

"The apostle Paul wrote to the Colossian Christians, a gentile congregation: "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: which are a shadow of things to come ..." (Colossians 2:16-17, King James Version).

This passage, probably more than any other in the Bible, is interpreted by those who reject God's festivals as confirmation that the biblical feast days are unnecessary observances. Regrettably, such reasoning is based on poor scholarship and misleading translations from the original wording of Paul's instructions.

From the context we see that Paul, in this passage, is countering a local heresy. In doing so he actually confirms and explains the value of God's days to Christians. He explains that they foreshadow "things to come."

In other words, the focus of God's festivals is on the future, relating God's plan directly to the commission Christ gave His Church. So let's examine what Paul actually says about Sabbaths, new moons and "holydays" in this verse.

First we need to understand that Paul was confronting a heresy. False teachers had infiltrated the congregation in Colosse. These deceivers had influenced the Colossian Christians by introducing their own religious philosophy. This prompted Paul to warn the Colossians, "Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit according to the tradition of men" (Colossians 2:8). Humanly devised tradition—not the revealed instructions of God's Word in the Bible—was the problem Paul was countering. Earlier Jesus had taken the Pharisees to task over the same kind of problem. They also had elevated their traditions to greater importance than God's commandments (Mark 7:8-9, 13).

Paul tried to keep the Colossians focused on Christ as the head of the Church (Colossians 1:18; Colossians 2:10, 19). But these false teachers were trying to persuade them to direct their worship toward angels (Colossians 2:18) and neglect their own bodies (verse 23). No such distorted ideas are taught anywhere in the Scriptures.

Paul characterized the Colossian heresy as "empty deceit" and "the basic principles of the world" (verse 8). The deceivers were persuading the Colossians to ignore plain biblical instruction in favor of "traditions of men."

What type of deceitful regulations did Paul combat? "Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle ... according to the commandments and doctrines of men" (verses 21-22). The heretics advocated man-made regulations concerning physical things that "perish with the using" (verse 22).

Why is this important? The deceivers were probably forerunners of a major religious movement, gnosticism, that flourished in the second century. They did not represent the mainstream Jewish thinking of that day, nor were they faithful to the Scriptures.

They believed salvation could be obtained through constant contemplation of what is "spiritual"—to, as Paul explained, the "neglect" of the physical body (verse 23). It appears they believed in various orders of angels and in direct human interaction with angels.

Paul indicates they regarded all physical things, including the human body, as decadent. He explicitly states that the heresies he was countering "concern things which perish with the using [physical things] according to the commandments and doctrines of men" (verse 22). Paul tells us he was countering human commandments and doctrines—not the commandments of God.

The Colossian heretics had introduced various man-made prohibitions—such as "Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle" (verse 21)—against the enjoyment of physical things. They especially objected to the pleasurable aspects of God's festivals—the eating and drinking aspects—that are commanded in the Scriptures (Deuteronomy 12:17-18).

When Paul wrote, "... Let no one judge you in food . . ." (verse 16), he wasn't discussing what types of foods they should or should not eat. The Greek word brosis, translated "food," refers not to the kinds of foods one should or should not eat, but to "the act of eating" (Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, 1985, "Food"). The point is that the deceivers disdained feasting—any type of eating and drinking for enjoyment.

Paul instructed the Colossian Christians not to be influenced by these false teachers' objections to eating, drinking and rejoicing on Sabbaths, feast days and new moons.

Perhaps we should, at this point, mention the relationship between new moons and God's festivals. The dates for observing God's festivals are determined by a lunar calendar. Therefore new moons—which mark the beginning of the months—are important for establishing correct festival dates. Unlike God's Holy Days, however, new moons are not commanded observances in the Scriptures. In the Millennium the custom of making the arrival of each new moon a special occasion will again be restored (Isaiah 66:23), but no biblical command exists now that requires their observance.

Now back to Paul's main point: The Colossian deceivers had no authority to judge or determine how the Colossians were to observe God's festivals. That is why Paul said, "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days ..." (verses 16-17, King James Version).

Notice that Paul tells them to reject false human judgment, not the judgment of God found in the Scriptures.

At this point we should note another grammatical matter. The words "respect of" are translated from the Greek noun meros, which denotes a part of something. Therefore a more accurate rendering of what Paul wrote would be "Let no man therefore judge you ... in any part of a holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days ..."

Paul is simply being consistent. Eating or drinking is an appropriate part of Sabbath and feast-day observance according to the Scriptures. Therefore Paul uses meros ("part") to cover all parts or aspects of God's Holy Days that these heretics might condemn or criticize. Nothing in this passage even suggests that God abolished His Sabbaths or Holy Days, nor authorized Paul to do so. Succumbing to the judgmental influence of those early gnostic heretics is what Paul condemns, not the observance of Sabbaths and feast days.

God's festivals are times for joy and celebration. He commands us to attend them and rejoice with our children—our entire family (Deuteronomy 12:5, 7; 14:26). He wants us to delight in them. No wonder Paul condemns the misguided ascetic philosophy of the Colossian heretics with such vigor. Paul was defending the Christians' right to enjoy feasting at God's holy festivals."
Source: https://www.ucg.ca/bible-study-less...ture/what-did-paul-really-say-colossians-2-16

 

[Inquisitor]

Your remarks about the Colossians reminded me of this article.

"The apostle Paul wrote to the Colossian Christians, a gentile congregation: "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: which are a shadow of things to come ..." (Colossians 2:16-17, King James Version).

This passage, probably more than any other in the Bible, is interpreted by those who reject God's festivals as confirmation that the biblical feast days are unnecessary observances. Regrettably, such reasoning is based on poor scholarship and misleading translations from the original wording of Paul's instructions.

From the context we see that Paul, in this passage, is countering a local heresy. In doing so he actually confirms and explains the value of God's days to Christians. He explains that they foreshadow "things to come."

In other words, the focus of God's festivals is on the future, relating God's plan directly to the commission Christ gave His Church. So let's examine what Paul actually says about Sabbaths, new moons and "holydays" in this verse.

First we need to understand that Paul was confronting a heresy. False teachers had infiltrated the congregation in Colosse. These deceivers had influenced the Colossian Christians by introducing their own religious philosophy. This prompted Paul to warn the Colossians, "Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit according to the tradition of men" (Colossians 2:8). Humanly devised tradition—not the revealed instructions of God's Word in the Bible—was the problem Paul was countering. Earlier Jesus had taken the Pharisees to task over the same kind of problem. They also had elevated their traditions to greater importance than God's commandments (Mark 7:8-9, 13).

—against the enjoyment of physical things. They especially objected to the pleasurable aspects of God's festivals—the eating and drinking aspects—that are commanded in the Scriptures (Deuteronomy 12:17-18).

When Paul wrote, "... Let no one judge you in food . . ." (verse 16), he wasn't discussing what types of foods they should or should not eat. The Greek word brosis, translated "food," refers not to the kinds of foods one should or should not eat, but to "the act of eating" (Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, 1985, "Food"). The point is that the deceivers disdained feasting—any type of eating and drinking for enjoyment.

Paul instructed the Colossian Christians not to be influenced by these false teachers' objections to eating, drinking and rejoicing on Sabbaths, feast days and new moons.



Notice that Paul tells them to reject false human judgment, not the judgment of God found in the Scriptures.

At this point we should note another grammatical matter. The words "respect of" are translated from the Greek noun meros, which denotes a part of something. Therefore a more accurate rendering of what Paul wrote would be "Let no man therefore judge you ... in any part of a holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days ..."
Source: https://www.ucg.ca/bible-study-less...ture/what-did-paul-really-say-colossians-2-16

Chat GPT disagrees with your interpretation.

Below is Chat GPT explaining the meaning of Colossians 2:16-18

Understanding the Passage
Paul is addressing the Colossian believers who were being influenced by false teachers. These teachers promoted a mixture of legalism (emphasizing adherence to Jewish laws) and mysticism (involving ascetic practices and worship of angels). Paul counters these teachings by pointing to Christ's sufficiency and supremacy.
Verse 16: Rejecting Judgment on Rituals
Paul exhorts the Colossians not to let others judge their spirituality based on adherence to Jewish dietary laws, religious festivals, or Sabbaths. These practices were part of the Mosaic Law, designed to set Israel apart and point forward to the Messiah. However, in Christ, these rituals are no longer binding.
Verse 17: Shadows and Substance
The term "shadows" refers to the Old Testament laws and practices, such as dietary restrictions, sacrifices, and holy days. These were symbolic foreshadowings of the reality found in Christ. For example:

• The Sabbath foreshadowed the ultimate rest believers find in Christ (Hebrews 4:9-10).
• Sacrificial systems pointed to Christ as the perfect sacrifice (Hebrews 10:1-14).
• Dietary laws highlighted holiness, fulfilled by Christ's transformative work in believers.

The "substance" (or reality) belongs to Christ, meaning that the fulfillment and purpose of these shadows are found in Him. He is the ultimate reality they were pointing toward.
Verse 18: Warning Against False Spirituality
Paul warns against those who advocate for asceticism (self-denial) or mystical experiences, such as worshiping angels or claiming visions. These practices can lead to pride and are disconnected from Christ, the true Head of the Church.
Key Lessons

1. Freedom in Christ: Believers are not bound by Old Testament ceremonial laws. Salvation and righteousness come through faith in Christ, not adherence to rituals.
2. Christ’s Sufficiency: The shadows (rituals and laws) were temporary pointers. Christ fulfills their ultimate purpose.
3. Reject False Teachings: Legalism, mysticism, and self-imposed spirituality can distract from a genuine relationship with Christ.

What are the Shadows?
The shadows are the ceremonial aspects of the Mosaic Law, including:

• Festivals (e.g., Passover, Pentecost)
• New moon celebrations
• Sabbath observances
• Dietary and purity laws

These were temporary, meant to prepare people for the reality and fullness found in Jesus Christ. Once the "substance" (Christ) has come, the shadows are no longer necessary. Instead of relying on external practices, believers are called to live in the freedom and fullness provided by Jesus.

 

[Magenta]

Did Paul intend to say that Sabbath-keeping is abolished? If so, we encounter some immediate problems with this interpretation. To accept this position, it is difficult to explain how Paul could leave the issue so muddled by not stating that these practices were unnecessary, when these verses indicate that the Colossians were, in fact, observing them. After all, the Colossian church was primarily gentile (Colossians 1:27; Colossians 2:13), so Paul could have used this epistle to make it plain that these practices were not binding on gentile or Jewish Christians.

However, Paul nowhere said that. Regarding the practices of festivals, new moons and Sabbaths, he said to "let no one judge you," which is quite different from saying these practices are unnecessary or obsolete.

Perhaps you should stop judging people for not pretending to keep the Sabbath like you do.

 

[Inquisitor]

Rather than inquire or denounce, you tell us.

Here the 4 questions I asked The Very Reverend ChatGPT.

Would a literal reading of the Bible conclude that the Gentiles were under the law of Moses?
Would a literal reading of the Bible support the idea that Gentiles were given the 10 commandments?
Are the gentiles judged apart from the law?
Would Paul, the apostle to the gentiles, tolerate circumcision or the law for gentiles?

ChatGPT said:

A literal reading of the Bible provides clear answers to these questions, as we consider the text of the New Testament in its original context, especially the writings of Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles. Let’s address each question systematically.
1. Were the Gentiles under the Law of Moses?
No, a literal reading of the Bible shows that the Gentiles were not placed under the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses was given specifically to Israel as part of the covenant at Mount Sinai (Exodus 19-20, Deuteronomy 5:1-3).
Paul consistently teaches that the Gentiles were not under the Law:

• Romans 2:14-15: "For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves."
• Ephesians 2:11-12: Paul reminds the Gentiles that they were once "aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise."

The Law of Moses was a unique covenant between God and Israel, and Gentiles were not obligated to keep its statutes unless they converted to Judaism (proselytism).
2. Were Gentiles given the Ten Commandments?
The Ten Commandments were a central part of the Law of Moses, given explicitly to Israel:

• Exodus 20:1-17 introduces the commandments with, "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage." This context applies directly to Israel.
• Deuteronomy 5:2-3 reaffirms that this covenant was made with Israel at Sinai.

While the moral principles reflected in the Ten Commandments (e.g., not stealing, not murdering) align with universal morality, Gentiles were not given the Ten Commandments as a covenant. Instead, Paul teaches that Gentiles are accountable to God through the moral law written on their hearts (Romans 2:14-15), rather than the Sinai covenant.
3. Are Gentiles judged apart from the Law?
Yes, Gentiles are judged apart from the Law of Moses. Paul emphasizes this in Romans 2:

• Romans 2:12: "For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law."
• Gentiles, who were "without the law," are judged based on their response to the moral law evident in creation and conscience (Romans 1:18-20, Romans 2:14-15).

Paul teaches that all humanity—both Jew and Gentile—is guilty before God, but the basis for judgment differs:

• Jews are judged by the written Law of Moses.
• Gentiles are judged by the internal moral law and their response to the revelation of God in nature.

4. Would Paul tolerate circumcision or the Law for Gentiles?
No, Paul strongly opposed imposing circumcision or the Law of Moses on Gentiles. This issue was central to his ministry and was addressed explicitly in his letters and at the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15).
Key points from Paul’s letters:

• Galatians 5:2-4: Paul warns Gentiles against circumcision: "Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing... You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law."
• 1 Corinthians 7:18-19: Paul states that "circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters," emphasizing faith and obedience rather than physical signs.
• Galatians 2:3-5: Paul refused to have Titus, a Gentile, circumcised, despite pressure from certain Jewish believers.

The Jerusalem Council (Acts 15):
This council definitively ruled that Gentile believers were not required to keep the Law of Moses or be circumcised. The apostles, including Paul, concluded that salvation is through grace, not adherence to the Law:

• Acts 15:10-11: "Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they."

Gentiles were only asked to observe minimal requirements to foster unity with Jewish believers, such as abstaining from idolatry, blood, and sexual immorality (Acts 15:19-20).
Summary: A Literal Reading

1. Gentiles were not under the Law of Moses. The Law was given exclusively to Israel.
2. Gentiles were not given the Ten Commandments as part of a covenant but were accountable to a moral law written on their hearts.
3. Gentiles are judged apart from the Law of Moses, based on their conscience and response to God's general revelation.
4. Paul rejected circumcision and the Law for Gentiles, emphasizing salvation by grace through faith in Christ alone, not by works of the Law.

Paul’s mission was to proclaim freedom in Christ to the Gentiles, emphasizing faith over legalism and unity in the body of Christ without imposing Jewish laws on non-Jews.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

They are all shadows including the entire law which was fulfilled by Jesus Christ.

Colossians 2:17
Things which are only a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

What are the shadows MeowFlower?

The weekly Sabbath can't be a shadow of anything because it started at Creation, before the fall of man when God made everything according to His perfect plan. The shadows laws were made after the fall of man and pointed to the plan of salvation which was fulfilled in Christ. At Creation, there was no plan of salvation, because God made everything perfect, which includes His perfect Sabbath.

So what are the shadow of what is to come refer to? This is what I love about the bible, God always explains Himself if we allow....

Heb 9: 10 concerned only with foods and drinks, various [b]washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation.
11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things [c]to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, [d]sanctifies for the [e]purifying of the flesh, 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without [f]spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.


Heb 10:1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come,

What law?

and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once [a]purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:
“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
To do Your will, O God.’ ”
8 Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, [b]O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second. 10 By that will we have been [c]sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

The shadow laws are clearly the animal sacrifices, yearly feasts and offering which some were also called yearly sabbath(s) that had to do with food and drink, that were handwritten by Moses, and were ordinances, that was written in book that was set outside the ark as a witness against for breaking God's law the Ten Commandments, which includes the Sabbath commandment..

There is no food, drink, festivals new moon offerings in any of the Ten Commandments. This is God law that defines what sin is when broken Rom 7:7 1 John 3:4 James 2:10-12 and what all man will be judged by regardless is we accept it or not, James 2:10-12 Mat 5:19-30 Ecc 12:13-14 Rev 22:14-15.

God said right in the Ten Commandments

Exo 20:6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Lets love God and show Him how much we love Him by doing what He asks of us. And trusting what Heus is because its for our own good, even if it doesn't always make sense to us. But once we start following His will, it will start making sense and know He is only trying to bless Isa 56:2 Isa 58:13-14 and sanctify us Eze 20:12, because we need God for everything, man can't do this themselves.

 

[vassal]

Paul did not need to abolish the sabbath when talking to the Colossians.

The Colossians were not Jews so they never had a sabbath day.

The Colossians were never in slavery in Egypt.

The Colossians never had a Hebrew Old Testament.

The Colossians were never in covenant to obey the law.

The Colossians never once celebrated a Passover, Booths, Unleavened Bread, etc.

The Colossians did not have a single Patriarch in their lineage.

There were no sacrifices and offerings to YHWH in the territory of Colossae.

The Colossians never had a temple on Mt Moriah.

Jesus was not sent to Colossae.[/QUOTE

if we follow your logic, all that God said to do and all that Jesus did was exclusively for the Jews, then what is the point of anything we discuss on this forum since many here are not Jews, should we abandon all we believe to fit your personal beliefs that go against scripture? are you certain you are Christian since You reject both God and Jesus and what they teaches?

 

[SabbathBlessing]

Now your teaching salvation by grace through faith.

John 3: 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

"that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life"

Yes, but believe if a Big word, not a small one.

It means to be-live Christ, not just to have the faith in Jesus, but have the faith of Jesus.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

What faith did Jesus have? Did He also keep the commandments of God?

He sure did, including the Sabbath

John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

How do we abide in Jesus?

1 John 2:6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

So be- living in Jesus means to be His follower. His sheep His voice and follow Him, meaning, they are living by His teachings and following in His example. Jesus always lead by example and said- I am the way, follow Me.

 

[vassal]

Here the 4 questions I asked The Very Reverend ChatGPT.

Would a literal reading of the Bible conclude that the Gentiles were under the law of Moses?
Would a literal reading of the Bible support the idea that Gentiles were given the 10 commandments?
Are the gentiles judged apart from the law?
Would Paul, the apostle to the gentiles, tolerate circumcision or the law for gentiles?

ChatGPT said:

A literal reading of the Bible provides clear answers to these questions, as we consider the text of the New Testament in its original context, especially the writings of Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles. Let’s address each question systematically.
1. Were the Gentiles under the Law of Moses?
No, a literal reading of the Bible shows that the Gentiles were not placed under the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses was given specifically to Israel as part of the covenant at Mount Sinai (Exodus 19-20, Deuteronomy 5:1-3).
Paul consistently teaches that the Gentiles were not under the Law:

• Romans 2:14-15: "For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves."
• Ephesians 2:11-12: Paul reminds the Gentiles that they were once "aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise."

The Law of Moses was a unique covenant between God and Israel, and Gentiles were not obligated to keep its statutes unless they converted to Judaism (proselytism).
2. Were Gentiles given the Ten Commandments?
The Ten Commandments were a central part of the Law of Moses, given explicitly to Israel:

• Exodus 20:1-17 introduces the commandments with, "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage." This context applies directly to Israel.
• Deuteronomy 5:2-3 reaffirms that this covenant was made with Israel at Sinai.

While the moral principles reflected in the Ten Commandments (e.g., not stealing, not murdering) align with universal morality, Gentiles were not given the Ten Commandments as a covenant. Instead, Paul teaches that Gentiles are accountable to God through the moral law written on their hearts (Romans 2:14-15), rather than the Sinai covenant.
3. Are Gentiles judged apart from the Law?
Yes, Gentiles are judged apart from the Law of Moses. Paul emphasizes this in Romans 2:

• Romans 2:12: "For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law."
• Gentiles, who were "without the law," are judged based on their response to the moral law evident in creation and conscience (Romans 1:18-20, Romans 2:14-15).

Paul teaches that all humanity—both Jew and Gentile—is guilty before God, but the basis for judgment differs:

• Jews are judged by the written Law of Moses.
• Gentiles are judged by the internal moral law and their response to the revelation of God in nature.

4. Would Paul tolerate circumcision or the Law for Gentiles?
No, Paul strongly opposed imposing circumcision or the Law of Moses on Gentiles. This issue was central to his ministry and was addressed explicitly in his letters and at the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15).
Key points from Paul’s letters:

• Galatians 5:2-4: Paul warns Gentiles against circumcision: "Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing... You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law."
• 1 Corinthians 7:18-19: Paul states that "circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters," emphasizing faith and obedience rather than physical signs.
• Galatians 2:3-5: Paul refused to have Titus, a Gentile, circumcised, despite pressure from certain Jewish believers.

The Jerusalem Council (Acts 15):
This council definitively ruled that Gentile believers were not required to keep the Law of Moses or be circumcised. The apostles, including Paul, concluded that salvation is through grace, not adherence to the Law:

• Acts 15:10-11: "Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they."

Gentiles were only asked to observe minimal requirements to foster unity with Jewish believers, such as abstaining from idolatry, blood, and sexual immorality (Acts 15:19-20).
Summary: A Literal Reading

1. Gentiles were not under the Law of Moses. The Law was given exclusively to Israel.
2. Gentiles were not given the Ten Commandments as part of a covenant but were accountable to a moral law written on their hearts.
3. Gentiles are judged apart from the Law of Moses, based on their conscience and response to God's general revelation.
4. Paul rejected circumcision and the Law for Gentiles, emphasizing salvation by grace through faith in Christ alone, not by works of the Law.

Paul’s mission was to proclaim freedom in Christ to the Gentiles, emphasizing faith over legalism and unity in the body of Christ without imposing Jewish laws on non-Jews.

I have warned about using AI this way, it is not intellligent and will say what it wants you to hear, soon when everybody is hooked because they are too lazy to think for themselves, they will ask you to pay for this service, this has already started.

The truth that your AI forgot is that Jesus sent the 12 to preach the gospel ( repentance from sin and the kingdom of heaven ) to all nations, it is called the great commission in your bible.

Mat 28:16 Meanwhile, the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain Jesus had designated.
Mat 28:17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him, but some doubted.
Mat 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
Mat 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 and teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

Please use your head

 

[mailmandan]

A parable that beautifully balances the idea of faith with the importance of works is the Parable of the Talents in Matthew 25:14-30. This parable emphasizes that while salvation is a gift from God, the faithful are expected to act on what they have been given, demonstrating their faith through obedience and fruitful actions. Let’s explore this parable in detail.

In the parable, Jesus describes a man who, before going on a journey, entrusts his servants with talents (a measure of wealth). "To one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey" (Matthew 25:15). The servants were not given these talents to hide or hoard but to steward wisely in their master’s absence.

Two of the servants used their talents to produce more. The one who received five talents earned five more, and the one with two talents earned two more. When the master returned, they were commended for their faithfulness: "Well done, good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord" (Matthew 25:21, 23). Their actions demonstrated that they understood the master’s will and acted in accordance with it.

However, the servant who received one talent did nothing with it. He buried it in the ground and offered excuses upon his master’s return: "Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. And I was afraid and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours" (Matthew 25:24-25). The master was displeased, calling him a "wicked and lazy servant" (Matthew 25:26). This servant’s failure to act on what he had been given resulted in his talent being taken away and himself being cast into "the outer darkness" (Matthew 25:30).

The Parable of the Talents teaches that God expects those who receive His grace and gifts to use them for His glory. The talents represent the resources, opportunities, and abilities God entrusts to each person. Faithful stewardship of these gifts is not optional; it is essential. While the servants could not take credit for receiving the talents—that was entirely the master’s choice—they were responsible for what they did with them. Their works demonstrated their faithfulness and love for their master.

This parable makes it clear that faith is not passive. True faith results in action—works that glorify God and further His purposes. As Jesus said in John 15:8, "By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples." Bearing fruit is a natural result of a life connected to God, and it is through these works that faith is proven genuine.

In conclusion, the Parable of the Talents illustrates the necessity of works as evidence of faith. While salvation is a gift from God, our response to that gift is crucial. God calls us to actively use what He has entrusted to us for His glory, showing our love, faith, and obedience through our actions. This parable reminds us that faith without works is not only incomplete but ultimately unfaithful to the calling God has placed on our lives.

Peace

In regard to the parable of the talents, the talents represent monetary value and are distributed according to ability (Matthew 25:15). The requirement is to invest in Christ. The first two servants deposited their money with the bankers (Matthew 25:27) but the third servant buried his money in the ground. (Matthew 25:25) The third servant had been given a talent according to his ability and the opportunity to believe and bear fruit in accordance but instead chose to reject it.

Also, the fact that the latter man in this parable is called "wicked" and "slothful" and an "unprofitable servant" (Matthew 25:30) who is "cast out into outer darkness" indicates that he was not a true disciple of the master. The idea of this parable is that all true believers will produce fruit in varying degrees. All genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23) Those who produce no results at all are not truly converted.

This man's characterization of the master maligns him as "reaping and gathering" what he had no right to claim as his own. This wicked, lazy servant does not represent a genuine believer as it's obvious that he had no true knowledge of the master. Two of these servants were children of God, but not the third. Children of God are not cast out into outer darkness. The fact that this man is called a "servant" does not necessarily mean that he was saved. His actions prove he was not a true servant.

The children of Israel (Oh Israel - Isaiah 43:1) were called the Lord’s servants, but they were not all saved. Isaiah 43:10 - "You are My witnesses, says the Lord," And My servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, nor shall there be after Me.

Leviticus 25:55 - For the children of Israel are servants to Me; they are My servants whom I brought out of the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God. Yet God later destroyed those who did not believe. (Jude 1:5)

Nehemiah 1:6 - please let Your ear be attentive and Your eyes open, that You may hear the prayer of Your servant which I pray before You now, day and night, for the children of Israel Your servants, and confess the sins of the children of Israel which we have sinned against You. Both my father’s house and I have sinned.

Works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of authentic faith, but not the essence of faith and also not the basis or means by which we obtain salvation. We must not place the cart before the horse. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

 

[mailmandan]

The problem with those baptized by Armstrong is that the UCG is a factional, pseudo Christian
organization. Your boast is in not eating pork.

According to the teaching of the UCG, God's food laws were established before the formation of Israel
and are therefore still binding to Christians today. (wiki)

The whole world can see the boast of the UCG.

Let Paul boast.

1 Corinthians 2:2
For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.

Why can't anyone see this?

Is our boast in Christ crucified or do we boast in not eating pork?

Is the UCG similar to the worldwide church of God? (Armstrongism) I once had a customer on my mail route who attended the worldwide church of God, and he was always trying to give me pamphlets on his church and their beliefs. He boasted about not eating pork and he was absolutely obsessed with the sabbath day, and he even once told me that I needed to tell my employer that I cannot work on Saturday because it is the sabbath day and if I continue to work on Saturday then my salvation will be in jeopardy.

What is the United Church of God? | GotQuestions.org