"The rich man And Lazarus..."

[Webers.Home]

.

The parable doesn’t say the rich man had a problem with the existence of
God, but rather with the existence of a place of torment that Moses and the
Prophets said absolutely nothing about or even hinted at.

A journey of a thousand miles,
Begins with a single step.
Lao Tzu

The word of The Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon
precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that
they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
Isaiah 28:13
_

 

[HeIsHere]

Right that’s true.

The OT repeatedly says the wicked are destroyed, not tormented.

In this world not the next.

 

[Runningman]

In this world not the next.

The righteous are also destroyed in this world. That means it’s talking about the next world.

 

[HeIsHere]

That’s an interesting interpretation.

I’ve also heard it said that the rich man and his five brothers represent something, bringing the number to six. As far as I know, six normally has a negative connotation to it in the Bible, but it could also be representative of something else.

Here’s an interesting article about the number six in the Bible:

https://www.biblestudy.org/bibleref/meaning-of-numbers-in-bible/6.html

It is the correct way to view it, Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees so audience relevance is key.

If one sees this as a real situation we have the absurdity of how a drop of water can travel through time on the tip of one’s finger.

On the other hand not a "true" parable since Jesus was alluding to future real world events and change using symbolism much like The Book of Revelation.

 

[HeIsHere]

The righteous are also destroyed in this world. That means it’s talking about the next world.

Not sure how that fits.

Both the righteous and the unrighteous are destroyed in this life and the OT is pretty silent on the next life.

As I mentioned before "destroyed" in and of itself does not specify the "nature" of the destruction.

This nuance seems to escape you for some reason.

 

[HeIsHere]

...and that would be?

Lazarus means "those God helps."

Rather ironic that Jesus gave the beggar this name, and the Pharisees would have know the significance of the name.

Jesus wanted to show the Pharisees, someone they may have known, and despised, was actually counted as worthy in the sight of God to be allowed to wait for the offer of redemption in the arms of Abraham >>> the gentiles

 

[Magenta]

Both the righteous and the unrighteous are destroyed in this life and the OT is pretty silent on the next life.

Job 19:25-27a
The book of Job is considered to be one of the oldest books in the Bible

Isaiah 26:19 Your dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise.

Daniel 12:1-3, And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which stands for the children
of your people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even
to that same time: and at that time your people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written
in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting
life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

[Magenta]

Psalm 49:15 God will redeem me from the realm of the dead; He will surely take me to Himself.

It was the Sadducees who did not believe in the afterlife.

That is why they were sad, you see

 

[Runningman]

Not sure how that fits.

Both the righteous and the unrighteous are destroyed in this life and the OT is pretty silent on the next life.

As I mentioned before "destroyed" in and of itself does not specify the "nature" of the destruction.

This nuance seems to escape you for some reason.

I said “The OT repeatedly says the wicked are destroyed, not tormented.” Then you said “in this world not the next.” If i understand you correctly, you’re saying the wicked are not destroyed in the next world, but admit the OT is silent on the next life. The NT says the wicked are destroyed too.

Since both the righteous and unrighteous die, the kind of destruction for the wicked isn’t merely physical.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
It is very easy to make up whatever you want when "explaining" what you think is a parable. Only Jesus would know what He meant when He gave parables.

Another reason the account is a real life occurrence in the afterlife before Christ's ascension.

But you’re the one making up whatever you want and rejecting basic Bible precepts such as Jesus taught those who weren’t His followers in parables.

There is no evidence that He was speaking to unbelieving Jews in Luke 16.

Read the context of Luke 15 and 16, it’s Pharisees, sinners, and others. Get that through your skull and get your eyes checked. I’m right with God.

You are deluded. You think God will make the souls of unbelievers disappear. No evidence at all. The opposite is true.

You just don't want the story to be real. So, for you, it HAS TO BE a parable. Then you don't have to accept the reality.

So, why does the account frighten you so much that you can't allow it to be real?

 

[Webers.Home]

.
No no one yet that I'm aware of has been able to find something in Moses'
writings either inferring, or explicitly describing, a fiery afterlife place for
retribution. However, Abraham didn't suggest Moses' writings alone but also
those of the Prophets. In other words; our search for a fiery afterlife in the
Old Testament has to include Moses and the Prophets in combination as if
they were one source instead of many.

Now, the covenant that Moses' people entered into with God warns of a
number of curses for non compliance. (Lev 26:14-39, Deut 27:15-26, and
Deut 28:15-68) which is about as far as Moses went with retribution.

But then the Prophet Isaiah elaborates by saying:

"All humanity will come to worship Me from week to week and from month
to month. And as they go out, they will see the dead bodies of those who
have rebelled against Me. For the worms that devour them will never die,
and the fire that burns them will never go out. All who pass by will view
them with utter horror." (Isa 66:23-24)

That rather ghastly scene depicts a sort of tourist attraction similar to the
La Brea Tar Pits museum in Los Angeles where the remains of prehistoric
creatures, excavated from ancient asphalt deposits, are on display.

* A worm that thrives in fire is pretty amazing, but not unreasonable. The 4
inch Pompeii worm lives in sea water temperatures of 176° Fahrenheit; hot
enough to kill salmonella and sanitize an egg. So I guess if God could create
a worm like the Pompeii, it shouldn't be too difficult for Him to create worms
that like it even warmer.

But my point is: had the rich man (and his five brothers) attended
synagogue, the rabbis would've brought him and them up to speed with the
curses listed in Moses' writings along with that awful scene depicted in
Isaiah's so that their arrival in the Hades depicted by Luke 16:19-31
wouldn't catch them unprepared.

My unsolicited advice to everyone following this discussion-- who insists a
fiery hell can't be true --to begin using what time they have remaining to
prepare their minds for the worst they pass on just in case so that it's not an
overwhelming "shock and awe" event for them. When the mind is at least
half-expecting something unpleasant, it's not so bad if and/or when it
happens.

For example: I have a touch of prostate cancer. For now, it's not a
problem. In point of fact, more men die with prostate cancer than from it.
But I'm fully aware that at any time my cancer can go ballistic and become
potentially fatal. Well; when it does, if it does, I won't be taken by surprise.
_

 

[HeIsHere]

I said “The OT repeatedly says the wicked are destroyed, not tormented.” Then you said “in this world not the next.” If i understand you correctly, you’re saying the wicked are not destroyed in the next world, but admit the OT is silent on the next life. The NT says the wicked are destroyed too.

Since both the righteous and unrighteous die, the kind of destruction for the wicked isn’t merely physical.

Sometimes I get lazy to type, let me elaborate on my response.

Many of the verses in the OT that speak to being "destroyed" are references to this physical world not in the afterlife. (I believe we have had this conversation and we looked at some of the verses).

I think I stated "pretty" meaning not many.

Yes, I think there are scriptures that speak of the unrighteous being destroyed in the next life, but neither should we read into this annihilation nor eternal conscious torment.

I cannot see "destroyed" being synonymous with either of those two concepts.

 

[HeIsHere]

There is no evidence that He was speaking to unbelieving Jews in Luke 16.

Who would the "unbelieving Jews" be in context of that time period.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
There is no evidence that He was speaking to unbelieving Jews in Luke 16.

Who would the "unbelieving Jews" be in context of that time period.

Ah, you got me! I meant that He wasn't only speaking to unbelieving Jews. His own disciples could have been there.

 

[HeIsHere]

FreeGrace2 said:
There is no evidence that He was speaking to unbelieving Jews in Luke 16.

Ah, you got me! I meant that He wasn't only speaking to unbelieving Jews. His own disciples could have been there.

Got it, agree His disciples could have been there, if not all, some.

 

[Webers.Home]

.
Continued from No.311

Now, getting back to our man Lazarus; we can suppose that prior to
becoming a diseased bum, he was healthy enough to attend synagogue. So
we can suppose his rabbis brought him up to speed on Moses' curses and
Isaiah's wormy burn pit. So what next?

Well, seeing as how our man evaded the other man's fate, then I think it
safe to assume that Lazarus' rabbis were on the ball and eventually headed
up a discussion of the 53rd chapter of Isaiah and correlated it to Moses in
Gen 3:15 which says:

"You and the woman will be enemies, and your offspring and her offspring
will be enemies. He will crush your head, and you will strike his heel."

Adding Isaiah to Moses, we get:

"All of us have strayed away like sheep. We have left God's paths to follow
our own. Yet The Lord laid on him the guilt and sins of us all." (Isa 53:5-6)

WHAM! The discovery of that safety net no doubt had an effect upon.
Lazarus. I can well imagine that in an instant, he realized that
protection from fiery retribution was not only possible, but well within
his grasp. So; what do you suppose our guy did next?

Well; Isaiah had this to say:

"Come now, let us reason together" says The Lord. "Though your sins are
like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool.

So, I think our guy responded similar to this:

"And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes
unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying: God be merciful to me a
sinner." (Luke 18:13)

Lazarus was given some information from the Old Testament. He believed it,
he acted on it, and thus he was spared by it. The other guy and his five
brothers could've done the same thing had they taken the trouble to find
someone teach them the Old Testament; and if Lazarus was able to find
someone, then they could've too.
_

 

[Saul-to-Paul]

Don’t forget about Jonah:

Jonah 2:1,2
1From inside the fish, Jonah prayed to the LORD his God, 2saying:
“In my distress I called to the LORD,
and He answered me.
From the belly of Sheol I called for help,
and You heard my voice.

Excellent!

 

[Saul-to-Paul]

There's simply no unsaved men in hell in the Bible before Judgment day. NONE!

 

[Saul-to-Paul]

The man is in hell with brothers on the earth! If the narrative doesn't fit you must acquit. 😂
Unless you believe parables can contradict the Word of God........😮

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

Ah, you got me! I meant that He wasn't only speaking to unbelieving Jews. His own disciples could have been there.

Got it, agree His disciples could have been there, if not all, some.

The Actual "Scripture Quotes" Resolves the speculation, Correct?:

Luk 16:1 And He said also unto His disciples, There was a certain rich man...

Luk 16:9 And I say unto you...

Luk 16:14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided Him.

Carry on, Precious brethren...