The Rapture

[KJV1611]

I believe that once the Tribulation period starts, the age of Grace is over and it goes back to the time of the Jews..That part is not finished yet. I certainly don't believe there will be another dispersion though.

How do you explain Luke 21:24 then if that verse takes place during the last 3 1/2 years of the tribulation?

Luke 21:24 KJV
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

 

[Denadii]

How do you explain Luke 21:24 then if that verse takes place during the last 3 1/2 years of the tribulation?

Luke 21:24 KJV
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

My understanding, and open to correction, is this Jesus gave this prophesy two thousand years ago. I believe that some parts of this prophesy are completed. Some, like the Armies around Jerusalem are to happen about the time the 'antichrist sets himself up as God in Jerusalem. That dispersion in verse 24 has happened already. As I say, I'm open to correction

 

[KJV1611]

My understanding, and open to correction, is this Jesus gave this prophesy two thousand years ago. I believe that some parts of this prophesy are completed. Some, like the Armies around Jerusalem are to happen about the time the 'antichrist sets himself up as God in Jerusalem. That dispersion in verse 24 has happened already. As I say, I'm open to correction

I'm not a corrector lol, I just read some of these comments on this thread and verses like that one are where my mind goes. I think the whole pre, mid and post trib arguments would melt away (irrelevant - have nothing to do with the great tribulation) if the discussion here would change to HOW LONG is time, times and the dividing of times and WHEN WAS the great tribulation.... These are just my opinions and I don't claim to have it all figured out, if I did I would say more lol.

 

[Denadii]

I'm not a corrector lol, I just read some of these comments on this thread and verses like that one are where my mind goes. I think the whole pre, mid and post trib arguments would melt away (irrelevant - have nothing to do with the great tribulation) if the discussion here would change to HOW LONG is time, times and the dividing of times and WHEN WAS the great tribulation.... These are just my opinions and I don't claim to have it all figured out, if I did I would say more lol.

But.....Didn't you know? The rapture happened. The Tribulation is over. Jesus returned a thousand years ago and the year is 3017? Oh my! You are behind. LOL Truly though. If one is not ready the time of the rapture is moot. The time of the tribulation period is endless and many of those Christians wh are not ready NOW, will not be able to stand in the tribulation, but will take the mark, and wind up in hell. a terrifying thought.

 

[KJV1611]

But.....Didn't you know? The rapture happened. The Tribulation is over. Jesus returned a thousand years ago and the year is 3017? Oh my! You are behind. LOL

The rapture happens at the last trump, not 2000 years ago.

 

[Denadii]

The rapture happens at the last trump, not 2000 years ago.

LOL Yup It does

 

[KJV1611]

Luke 21:20 KJV
And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

This verse says that when Jerusalem is surrounded by armies then the desolation of Jerusalem is near. We know this happened in AD 70 but how does this fit in to the 7 year tribulation, is Jerusalem going to be desolated again? Jesus is supposed to reign there after the tribulation isn't he?

 

[Denadii]

Luke 21:20 KJV
And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

This verse says that when Jerusalem is surrounded by armies then the desolation of Jerusalem is near. We know this happened in AD 70 but how does this fit in to the 7 year tribulation, is Jerusalem going to be desolated again? Jesus is supposed to reign there after the tribulation isn't he?

Yes It could have happened already. Well it did. You are right. Are you sure it does not happen again? During the tribulation?

 

[Joshie]

Please have a look at Scott Clarks end time signs in the heavens. Please he runs over the scripture with the most extreme examination and has found that September 23 the feast of Trumps has a sign in the heavens that was described in the Gospel.

 

[Denadii]

Please have a look at Scott Clarks end time signs in the heavens. Please he runs over the scripture with the most extreme examination and has found that September 23 the feast of Trumps has a sign in the heavens that was described in the Gospel.

That would be about right. Still its only opinion. We cannot know the time or the hour. That leaves it that we can know the year the month and the season. It may be at trumps.

 

[KJV1611]

Yes It could have happened already. Well it did. You are right. Are you sure it does not happen again? During the tribulation?

I don't know if it happens in again in the 7 year tribulation view or not.... I'm asking because I don't know how the desolation of Jerusalem plays out in that view... Maybe VCO can answer.

 

[Denadii]

I don't know if it happens in again in the 7 year tribulation view or not.... I'm asking because I don't know how the desolation of Jerusalem plays out in that view... Maybe VCO can answer.

Maybe he'll pop in. I know my Lady says there is a Jerusalem happening during the tribulation. at midway

 

[KJV1611]

I don't know if it happens in again in the 7 year tribulation view or not.... I'm asking because I don't know how the desolation of Jerusalem plays out in that view... Maybe VCO can answer.

Can anyone answer this one? Will the desolation of Israel during the tribulation work in the 7 year tribulation scheme of things?

 

[Ahwatukee]

Please have a look at Scott Clarks end time signs in the heavens. Please he runs over the scripture with the most extreme examination and has found that September 23 the feast of Trumps has a sign in the heavens that was described in the Gospel.

Hello Joshie,

I don't know who Scott Clark is, but the "great sign in heaven" was for John and was how God presented that information for him to write it. The reference to the sun, moon and stars is symbolic representing Israel and is not meant to infer that literal cosmic events would take place.

Also, I believe I know where you are going with this by mentioning the Sept. 23 and the feast of trumpets. The 7th trumpet of the trumpet judgments is not the "last trumpet" that Paul spoke of in 1 Cor.15:52. One reason being is that, the seals and the trumpets are apart of God's wrath. And since we, the church is not appointed to suffer God's wrath, then the gathering cannot take place at the 7th trumpet, because that would put the church through God's wrath.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Can anyone answer this one? Will the desolation of Israel during the tribulation work in the 7 year tribulation scheme of things?

Hello KJV1611,

The scripture below sets the stage for the tribulation period:

"He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.” - Dan.9:27

Regarding the above, Jesus said the following:

"So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

According to Dan.9:27, the ruler/antichrist, establishes a seven year covenant with Israel. In the middle of that seven years he causes the sacrifices and offerings to cease and sets up the abomination and is also when he will stand in the temple proclaiming himself to be God.

In Matt.24:15, Jesus quotes Dan.9:27 regarding the abomination being set up. The entire seven years is the tribulation period, with the last 3 1/2 years referred to as "the great tribulation."

In the Matt.24:15-21 scripture, Jesus warns that when they see the abomination standing in the holy place, they are to flee to the mountains, which is the desolation of Jerusalem. This event is synonymous with the Rev.12:6,14 when the woman/Israel flees out to that place prepared for her by God out in the desert, which also refers to that last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period.

Conclusion: When that ruler, the antichrist, establishes that seven year covenant with Israel, it will allow them to build their temple where they will be sacrificing and offering according to the law. Then in the middle of the seven years, he will cause the sacrifices and offerings to cease and will set up that abomination in the holy place, which is synonymous with the image that the false prophet has the inhabitants of the earth make in Rev.13:14-15. Once the abomination is set up, then the desolation takes place with Israel fleeing out into the desert to that place prepared for her by God as found in Matt.24:16, Rev.12:6,14.

 

[VCO]

My pastor is older than you and he would disagree with you, so the age argument doesn't fly.
I have read Matthew 24 many times, and you say it mentions nothing of Him staying on earth, well how about:

Zechariah 14:4
And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

That certainly mentions it. How do you explain that? Let me guess, the foot touch the mount of olives and go right back up and bring a spiritual presence of some sort? And the escaping there is escape from sin or something

Yes the verse in Zechariah is the SECOND COMING, and the Calling Out of the Bride is earlier. His explanation to me was it was split by the road built over it, and erosion along the Road. LOL He obviously does not know how ROCKY that ground is. He also thinks my KNOWING HIM intimately and personally with DEEP LOVE, is foolishness. Don't let his kind bother you, we were warned that they would be here in the last days. This should tell you where Plainword is coming from:

Matthew 7:15-16 (RSV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles?

2 Peter 2:1-2 (NIV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (NIV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

2 Timothy 3:5 (NRSV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] holding to the outward form of godliness but denying its power. Avoid them!

2 Timothy 3:7-9 (NRSV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] who are always being instructed and can never arrive at a knowledge of the truth.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] As Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these people, of corrupt mind and counterfeit faith, also oppose the truth.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] But they will not make much progress, because, as in the case of those two men, their folly will become plain to everyone.

2 Timothy 3:12-14 (ESV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted,
[SUP]13 [/SUP] while evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it

 

[VCO]

Can anyone answer this one? Will the desolation of Israel during the tribulation work in the 7 year tribulation scheme of things?

This Antichrist (a dictator possessed by Satan), not only takes over the Third TEMPLE, and starts beheading anyone who will not worship him as GOD and take his mark, but I think it Clearly indicates he will start what can only be described as WWIII. Combine that with WRATH OF GOD being Poured out on the whole world, and the great earthquakes, bolder size hail stones, and plagues at and around His Second Coming to MAKE WAR on the Nations attacking Jerusalem, it sounds to me, there will be only the 144,000 survive in Israel, especially around Jerusalem. Those 144,000 sealed survivors are the Mortals that will repopulate Israel, so that God's Everlasting Covenant with ISRAEL can continue.

Zechariah 14:1-21 (NIV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] A day of the LORD is coming when your plunder will be divided among you.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights in the day of battle.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] On that day there will be no light, no cold or frost.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] It will be a unique day, without daytime or nighttime--a day known to the LORD. When evening comes, there will be light.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half to the eastern sea and half to the western sea, in summer and in winter.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] The LORD will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one LORD, and his name the only name.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] The whole land, from Geba to Rimmon, south of Jerusalem, will become like the Arabah. But Jerusalem will be raised up and remain in its place, from the Benjamin Gate to the site of the First Gate, to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the royal winepresses.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] It will be inhabited; never again will it be destroyed. Jerusalem will be secure.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] This is the plague with which the LORD will strike all the nations that fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] On that day men will be stricken by the LORD with great panic. Each man will seize the hand of another, and they will attack each other.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Judah too will fight at Jerusalem. The wealth of all the surrounding nations will be collected--great quantities of gold and silver and clothing.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] A similar plague will strike the horses and mules, the camels and donkeys, and all the animals in those camps.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, they will have no rain.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] If the Egyptian people do not go up and take part, they will have no rain. The LORD will bring on them the plague he inflicts on the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] This will be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] On that day HOLY TO THE LORD will be inscribed on the bells of the horses, and the cooking pots in the LORD's house will be like the sacred bowls in front of the altar.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] Every pot in Jerusalem and Judah will be holy to the LORD Almighty, and all who come to sacrifice will take some of the pots and cook in them. And on that day there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the LORD Almighty.


Add all that to everything it says will happen in Revelation, especially Chapter 19, (HIS SECOND COMING), I think it is very reasonable, to say Jerusalem and all the surrounding area will be a wasteland covered with bodies, and only the 144,000 Jewish mortals who were sealed, will survive in that area.


Psalm 79:1-9 (NIV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] O God, the nations have invaded your inheritance; they have defiled your holy temple, they have reduced Jerusalem to rubble.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] They have given the dead bodies of your servants as food to the birds of the air, the flesh of your saints to the beasts of the earth.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] They have poured out blood like water all around Jerusalem, and there is no one to bury the dead.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] We are objects of reproach to our neighbors, of scorn and derision to those around us.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] How long, O LORD? Will you be angry forever? How long will your jealousy burn like fire?
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Pour out your wrath on the nations that do not acknowledge you, on the kingdoms that do not call on your name;
[SUP]7 [/SUP] for they have devoured Jacob and destroyed his homeland.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Do not hold against us the sins of the fathers; may your mercy come quickly to meet us, for we are in desperate need.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Help us, O God our Savior, for the glory of your name; deliver us and forgive our sins for your name's sake.


Jeremiah 7:32-34 (NIV)
[SUP]32 [/SUP] So beware, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when people will no longer call it Topheth or the Valley of Ben Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter, for they will bury the dead in Topheth until there is no more room.
[SUP]33 [/SUP] Then the carcasses of this people will become food for the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth, and there will be no one to frighten them away.
[SUP]34 [/SUP] I will bring an end to the sounds of joy and gladness and to the voices of bride and bridegroom in the towns of Judah and the streets of Jerusalem, for the land will become desolate.

 

[VCO]

I am looking at the Scriptures you presented. I still don't see from it a pre trib position for the catching away. Even the word rapture is not in the gospel. I would lose the term for that alone. In Matthew 24 Jesus said after (NOT BEFORE) the tribulation of those days you will see the sun darken and the son of man appearing in the clouds. I would rather trust the Scripture then a 10 virgin conjecture rationale to support what I don't see in the Scripture to support your position, and my eyes are just fine. Jesus even warns don't believe a secret coming and that every eye will see Him when he comes the second time. The Scripture says the coming of the Lord not the comings of the Lord. The rapture teaching originate with Margret McDonald. She might make a good hamburger but that's it.

Don't you know the word Rapture comes from the LATIN BIBLE? The Latin word for "caught up" is "Rapturo".

The Greek word from this term “rapture” is derived appears in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, translated “caught up.” The Latin translation of this verse used the word rapturo. The Greek word it translates is harpazo, which means to snatch or take away. Elsewhere it is used to describe how the Spirit caught up Philip near Gaza and brought him to Caesarea (Acts 8:39) and to describe Paul’s experience of being caught up into the third heaven (2 Cor. 12:2-4). Thus there can be no doubt that the word is used in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 to indicate the actual removal of people from earth to heaven.
https://bible.org/question/where-did-term-8216rapture’-come

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (NIV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up {Rapturo-Lt., Harpazo-Gk., = Rapture} together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.


1 Thessalonians 5:9 (ESV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Revelation 6:15-17 (ESV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains,
[SUP]16 [/SUP] calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb,
[SUP]17 [/SUP] for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”

Revelation 3:10 (ESV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.


Read my Post #22 on page 2, please.

 

[J7]

So what you are basically saying is that:

1) when Temple sacrifices are reinstated, believers are to flood into Jerusalem to join in
2) three and a half years later, the AoD is set up in the Temple, at which point believers are to flood out of Jerusalem and into the hills of Judea

Surely God would have said:

"When Temple sacrifices start, but an OPEN air ticket to Jerusalem, valid for four years. After three and half years, fly home, because this is when the AoD is instituted"

Hello KJV1611,

The scripture below sets the stage for the tribulation period:

"He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.” - Dan.9:27

Regarding the above, Jesus said the following:

"So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house.Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak.How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers!Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.For then there will be great tribulation, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

According to Dan.9:27, the ruler/antichrist, establishes a seven year covenant with Israel. In the middle of that seven years he causes the sacrifices and offerings to cease and sets up the abomination and is also when he will stand in the temple proclaiming himself to be God.

In Matt.24:15, Jesus quotes Dan.9:27 regarding the abomination being set up. The entire seven years is the tribulation period, with the last 3 1/2 years referred to as "the great tribulation."

In the Matt.24:15-21 scripture, Jesus warns that when they see the abomination standing in the holy place, they are to flee to the mountains, which is the desolation of Jerusalem. This event is synonymous with the Rev.12:6,14 when the woman/Israel flees out to that place prepared for her by God out in the desert, which also refers to that last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period.

Conclusion: When that ruler, the antichrist, establishes that seven year covenant with Israel, it will allow them to build their temple where they will be sacrificing and offering according to the law. Then in the middle of the seven years, he will cause the sacrifices and offerings to cease and will set up that abomination in the holy place, which is synonymous with the image that the false prophet has the inhabitants of the earth make in Rev.13:14-15. Once the abomination is set up, then the desolation takes place with Israel fleeing out into the desert to that place prepared for her by God as found in Matt.24:16, Rev.12:6,14.

 

[PlainWord]

The Preterist view of things was invented by a Jesuit Priest by the name of Luis de Alcazar in order to refute the charge by the reformers that the Pope was the Antichrist. He published a book entitled Vestigatio Arcani Senses in Apocalyptic. It was published in Antwerp in 1614. To sum it up he said that almost all of revelation had happened so the Pope couldnt possibly be the Antichrist.

Another Jesuit by the name of Francisco Ribera took a different route with the same aim by writing a commentary on Revelation that placed the Antichrist centuries ahead of his time along with a number major Dispensational assertions still around today.

Actually, the first preterist was Eusebius of Caesarea 260-340 AD. Although he was probably a partial preterist like me. Partial in that he saw the great tribulation as the suffering inside the city leading up to the total destruction of Jerusalem. In fact most of the early church writers also held this view.

The Great Tribulation was ancient history and so was the Man of Sin. There is absolutely no doubt that the presence of Christ returned in 66-70 AD to oversee the destruction of Israel and He actively worked against the evil Jews of that day. Josephus who witnessed all these events even felt so.