The Rapture

[VCO]

The spirit is the BREATH, hence, "he breathed into man the BREATH of life, and man became a living SOUL". This same BREATH, AKA SPIRIT, is the same spirit even animals have, "they went in two by two, in whom was the spirit of life" of the animals that went into Noah's ark. As such, when a man dies, this spirit, AKA breath, goes back to God who gave it. And the soul, goes to Sheol, hence why the soul of Jesus Christ was in Sheol, "you will not abandon my soul in Sheol...".

To be absent in the body does not make you immediately present with the Lord, but when you become absent, as in when you die, you will then feel as if you quickly woke up in the resurrection of the dead, for you do not feel the passing of time at death, in which case, you will then be present with the Lord. The Sleep of Death in Sheol, the Two Resurrections, and the Lake of Fire Judgment | Wisdom of God

Living Soul is a term that also frequently is used interchangeably with the word person.

HENCE:

Revelation 6:9 (NKJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.

IS EQUALLY CORRECTLY TRANSLATED IN A NEWER VERSION SUCH AS THE HCSB:

Revelation 6:9 (HCSB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the people slaughtered because of God’s word and the testimony they had.


The human spirit is NOT GOD breathing life into the body, your teachers were wrong:


Zechariah 12:1 (NIV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] This is the word of the LORD concerning Israel. The LORD, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the spirit of man within him, declares:


John 3:6 (NIV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Romans 8:16 (NIV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.

 

[VCO]

Tell me, where do you suppose sacrifices are performed, in heaven, or on earth? Do you suppose animals or humans are killed in heaven as sacrifices? And where was Jesus Christ offered up, in heaven, or on earth? The answer to these questions will then lead you to understand what the brazen altar symbolizes. And then once you know what the brazen altar symbolizes, then you can know what is BELOW this altar, where the souls of the dead would be.

WOW, do you ever have a lot to learn:


John 1:36 (RSV)
[SUP]36 [/SUP] and he looked at Jesus as he walked, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God!"

Revelation 5:6-7 (ASV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] And I saw in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, having seven horns, and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent forth into all the earth.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] And he came, and he taketh it out of the right hand of him that sat on the throne.

Revelation 7:16-17 (ASV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun strike upon them, nor any heat:
[SUP]17 [/SUP] for the Lamb that is in the midst of the throne shall be their shepherd, and shall guide them unto fountains of waters of life: and God shall wipe away every tear from their eyes.

Leviticus 4:25 (ESV)
25 Then the priest shall take some of the blood of the sin offering with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering and pour out the rest of its blood at the base of the altar of burnt offering.

1 Corinthians 5:7 (ESV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.

1 Peter 1:18-19 (NIV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers,
[SUP]19 [/SUP] but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect.

Hebrews 4:14 (ESV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.


NOW, IN HIS FUNCTIONS as our HIGH PRIEST, where do you think HE POURED OUT HIS SACRIFICIAL BLOOD?


Revelation 9:13 (RSV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Then the sixth angel blew his trumpet, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar before God,

Revelation 8:2-3 (GW)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Then I saw the seven angels who stand in God's presence, and they were given seven trumpets.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Another angel came with a gold incense burner and stood at the altar. He was given a lot of incense to offer on the gold altar in front of the throne. He offered it with the prayers of all of God's people.
Revelation 11:1 (RSV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told: "Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there,

 

[VCO]

According to Paul the dead will rise and we who are alive will join them to meet the lord in the air. The righteous dead are with him now and will return with him at the second coming to receive their glorified bodies at the rapture

Daniel 7:27 (HCSB)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] The kingdom, dominion, and greatness of the kingdoms under all of heaven will be given to the people, the holy ones of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will serve and obey Him.’


1 Thessalonians 3:13 (NIV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones.


Jude 1:14-15 (HCSB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] And Enoch, in the seventh ⌊generation⌋ from Adam, prophesied about them: Look! The Lord comes with thousands of His holy ones
[SUP]15 [/SUP] to execute judgment on all and to convict them of all their ungodly acts that they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things ungodly sinners have said against Him.


Zechariah 14:3-5 (ESV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] And you shall flee to the valley of my mountains, for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal. And you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.


Yes that describes the Second Coming, when HIS FEET TOUCH the Mount of Olives and SPLITS IT IN TWO. But there is also an APPEARING in the clouds, when HIS FEET DO NOT TOUCH the Earth.

Titus 2:13-14 (NKJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
[SUP]14 [/SUP] who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.


What is the Biggest Difference between His appearing and His Second Coming ? ? ?


Luke 17:24 (NRSV)
[SUP]24[/SUP]For as the lightning flashes and lights up the sky from one side to the other, so will the Son of Man be in his day.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (HCSB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] We do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, concerning those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who have no hope.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, in the same way God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] For we say this to you by a revelation from the Lord: We who are still alive at the Lord’s coming will certainly have no advantage over those who have fallen asleep.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the archangel’s voice, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Then we who are still alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we will always be with the Lord.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] Therefore encourage one another with these words.

1 Corinthians 15:51-55 (HCSB)
[SUP]51 [/SUP] Listen! I am telling you a mystery: We will not all fall asleep, but we will all be changed,
[SUP]52 [/SUP] in a moment, in the blink of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed.
[SUP]53 [/SUP] For this corruptible must be clothed with incorruptibility, and this mortal must be clothed with immortality.
[SUP]54 [/SUP] When this corruptible is clothed with incorruptibility, and this mortal is clothed with immortality, then the saying that is written will take place: Death has been swallowed up in victory.
[SUP]55 [/SUP] Death, where is your victory? Death, where is your sting?


The APPEARING happens VERY FAST and is as BRIGHT as lightning, AND he is coming as: the Son of Man to Call out HIS BRIDE.


The Second Coming happens SO SLOW that all the Armies of the World have time to gather as Armageddon to MAKE WAR on HIM who is coming to MAKE WAR ON NATIONS as KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

Revelation 19:11-21 (YLT)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] And I saw the heaven having been opened, and lo, a white horse, and he who is sitting upon it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness doth he judge and war,
[SUP]12 [/SUP] and his eyes are as a flame of fire, and upon his head are many diadems--having a name written that no one hath known, except himself,
[SUP]13 [/SUP] and he is arrayed with a garment covered with blood, and his name is called, The Word of God.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] And the armies in the heaven were following him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen--white and pure;
[SUP]15 [/SUP] and out of his mouth doth proceed a sharp sword, that with it he may smite the nations, and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, and he doth tread the press of the wine of the wrath and the anger of God the Almighty,
[SUP]16 [/SUP] and he hath upon the garment and upon his thigh the name written, `King of kings, and Lord of lords.'
[SUP]17 [/SUP] And I saw one messenger standing in the sun, and he cried, a great voice, saying to all the birds that are flying in mid-heaven, `Come and be gathered together to the supper of the great God,
[SUP]18 [/SUP] that ye may eat flesh of kings, and flesh of chiefs of thousands, and flesh of strong men, and flesh of horses, and of those sitting on them, and the flesh of all--freemen and servants--both small and great.'
[SUP]19 [/SUP] And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, having been gathered together to make war with him who is sitting upon the horse, and with his army;
[SUP]20 [/SUP] and the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet who did the signs before him, in which he led astray those who did receive the mark of the beast, and those who did bow before his image; living they were cast--the two--to the lake of the fire, that is burning with brimstone;
[SUP]21 [/SUP] and the rest were killed with the sword of him who is sitting on the horse, which sword is proceeding out of his mouth, and all the birds were filled out of their flesh.



You have to learn which is which, when you are looking at the Prophetic Scriptures. One event, the Calling Out of HIS Bride happens so fast it compares to Lightning flashing across the Sky, while the Second Coming happens so slow, all the armies of the world have time to gather in the Valley of Megiddo. IN BOTH EVENTS, HIS HOLY ONES COME WITH HIM.

 

[tanakh]

I find it comical how you will take the figurative passage of the rich man and Lazarus literally, and then will take the literal passages of the dead being called asleep figuratively. But let us dig a little further, and perhaps you may come to understand. Where was Jesus Christ for three days and three nights?

I find it far from comical that you disbelieve the teachings in the Bible and follow a cultish doctrine. I am well aware of
the various uses of language in the Bible and where and when not to use them. As I said before that particular Parable
does not support Soul Sleep in any way. You appear to believe it was some sort of fairy story Christ used to pass the time
because so far you have not presented anything sensible in relation to it. I answer to your question with regard to Christ I will let Peter answer it:

For Christ also died for sins once for all the righteous for the unrighteous
that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but being
being made alive in the spirit, in which he went and preached to the spirits in
prison who formerly did not obey when Gods patience waited in the days of Noah
during the building of the Ark in which a few that is eight persons were saved through
water

1 Peter 3:18 - 20

This explains where Christ went for three days and ties in with other parts of scripture which you ignore. VCO has given you scriptures but it seems that you choose to disbelieve the word of God. This is my last reply to you because anything further said would be a waste of time.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I find it comical how you will take the figurative passage of the rich man and Lazarus literally, and then will take the literal passages of the dead being called asleep figuratively. But let us dig a little further, and perhaps you may come to understand. Where was Jesus Christ for three days and three nights?

Hell Christig,

When the man on the cross asked Jesus to "remember him when he came into his kingdom" Jesus said, "truly I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise. Both Jesus and that man died that day and they went to that same place of comfort/paradise that Abraham and Lazarus were in the heart of the earth, which was that area across from Sheol/Hades.

The event of the rich man and Lazarus is not a parable but an actual event that took place. The scripture states that both Lazarus and the rich man died. Lazarus was taken to that place of comfort/paradise at Abraham's side and the rich man went into Sheol/Hades that place of torment in flame. There is nothing in the context of the rich man and Lazarus that would infer it as being a parable. For parables for the most part, use symbolism to represent the literal. That said, the rich and man and Lazarus uses real names: Lazarus, Moses, the prophets, the rich man's five brothers and the literal location of Hades. There is no symbolism used in this, but Christ was revealing an actual event that had at some time had literally taken place.

Regarding the use of the word Hades, at the end of the thousand year reign of Christ, those who are in Hades will be resurrected out and will stand at the great white throne and be judged.

 

[buddyt]

tanakh

Your spot on with your comments post #36

 

[christig]

Hell Christig,

When the man on the cross asked Jesus to "remember him when he came into his kingdom" Jesus said, "truly I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise. Both Jesus and that man died that day and they went to that same place of comfort/paradise that Abraham and Lazarus were in the heart of the earth, which was that area across from Sheol/Hades.

The event of the rich man and Lazarus is not a parable but an actual event that took place. The scripture states that both Lazarus and the rich man died. Lazarus was taken to that place of comfort/paradise at Abraham's side and the rich man went into Sheol/Hades that place of torment in flame. There is nothing in the context of the rich man and Lazarus that would infer it as being a parable. For parables for the most part, use symbolism to represent the literal. That said, the rich and man and Lazarus uses real names: Lazarus, Moses, the prophets, the rich man's five brothers and the literal location of Hades. There is no symbolism used in this, but Christ was revealing an actual event that had at some time had literally taken place.

Regarding the use of the word Hades, at the end of the thousand year reign of Christ, those who are in Hades will be resurrected out and will stand at the great white throne and be judged.

If paradise is in the heart of the earth, as you say, then why does the Psalm say, "You will not abandon my soul in Sheol" as if Sheol would be a place you would not want to be abandoned in? Doesn't quite sound like paradise to me. And why would paradise be in the center of the earth? Wouldn't the center of the earth be a dark place, or do rays of sun somehow penetrate the center of the earth to give it light?

 

[tanakh]

Good evening Tanakh,

Yes, you are correct, God is quite capable of protecting both Jew and Gentile on the earth during the tribulation, which would basically require individual force fields for each believer and that because of the severity of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. But instead of protecting the church on the earth during the time of His wrath, the Lord will be removing His church, which besides all of the scriptural proof that He does just that, logically it would be more plausible to remove the church opposed to protecting it through the tribulation. Again, coming to your conclusion to protect the church during the tribulation has to do with not understanding the severity and magnitude of God's wrath. Remember, "It will be a time of great tribulation [such as the world has not seen from the beginning, until now and never to be equaled again]."

Regarding the saints mentioned throughout the narrative of God's wrath, there is nothing in scripture that states that they are protected. In fact, scripture mentions that they will be exposed to God's wrath. The only groups that are protected are the 144,000 and that from the 5th trumpet. The other is the woman/Israel who after the abomination is set up in the middle of the seven, the desolation takes place with the woman, the remnant of Israel, fleeing out into that place prepared for her by God where she is cared for during that last 3 1/2 years(Rev.12:6, 14).



The reason that the Lord gave us the book of Revelation is so that the believers in the church can warn unbelievers of the wrath that is coming. I personally use the information in Revelation whenever sharing Christ. Since the majority of the book of Revelation gives a detailed account of God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, when we are telling people of the salvation that Christ provides, we should also be telling them what the consequences are for those without Christ. The following is what Jesus says at the end of the book of Revelation:

"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.

Are you suggesting that the tribulation wrath is greater than the Flood when everything and everybody drowned apart from Noah his family and the animals in the Ark? When Christ said that it was greater than anything seen or will be again he was using Hyperbole to emphasise the severity of the judgement. Apart from actually blowing the earth to bits I cant imagine anything greater than the flood however severe. Gods wrath appears to get worse every time you post something
about it. God didn't need a force field to protect Noah. A wooden boat was enough. The Israelites were not supplied with individual force fields in Egypt either.Neither as you have stated are the remnant or 144000 Jews who remain on earth at the tribulstion.

Revelation was written according to most scholars around 95AD which means that for about 65 years after the resurrection
no one could have read it or heard about it. Apart from that its universal acceptance as Scripture did not occur until around the time of Constantine which means that using Revelation to warn people was a hit and miss affair and depended solely on those who had accepted it before that time. Apart from that if unbelievers refuse to believe the basic gospel the idea that a complex book like Revelation would convert them is doubtful. I have never met anyone who was saved by hearing anything from Revelation have you?

 

[popeye]

Hell Christig,

When the man on the cross asked Jesus to "remember him when he came into his kingdom" Jesus said, "truly I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise. Both Jesus and that man died that day and they went to that same place of comfort/paradise that Abraham and Lazarus were in the heart of the earth, which was that area across from Sheol/Hades.

The event of the rich man and Lazarus is not a parable but an actual event that took place. The scripture states that both Lazarus and the rich man died. Lazarus was taken to that place of comfort/paradise at Abraham's side and the rich man went into Sheol/Hades that place of torment in flame. There is nothing in the context of the rich man and Lazarus that would infer it as being a parable. For parables for the most part, use symbolism to represent the literal. That said, the rich and man and Lazarus uses real names: Lazarus, Moses, the prophets, the rich man's five brothers and the literal location of Hades. There is no symbolism used in this, but Christ was revealing an actual event that had at some time had literally taken place.

Regarding the use of the word Hades, at the end of the thousand year reign of Christ, those who are in Hades will be resurrected out and will stand at the great white throne and be judged.

Yep,I think all parables are prefixed " the kingdom of heaven is like...",or some other such wording.

 

[christig]

Living Soul is a term that also frequently is used interchangeably with the word person.

HENCE:

Revelation 6:9 (NKJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.

IS EQUALLY CORRECTLY TRANSLATED IN A NEWER VERSION SUCH AS THE HCSB:

Revelation 6:9 (HCSB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the people slaughtered because of God’s word and the testimony they had.


The human spirit is NOT GOD breathing life into the body, your teachers were wrong:


Zechariah 12:1 (NIV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] This is the word of the LORD concerning Israel. The LORD, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the spirit of man within him, declares:


John 3:6 (NIV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Romans 8:16 (NIV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.

Because the soul is YOUR BEING. And what gives life to your soul is the BREATH, AKA the SPIRIT. Once the spirit departs your body, your soul becomes dead. This is why it is written, "you will not abandon my soul in Sheol", because the soul of Jesus Christ was in Sheol for 3 days and 3 nights. You lack understanding concerning the distinction between spirit and soul. Even in the Greek and Hebrew, there is no distinction between spirit and breath, they mean the same thing.

 

[christig]

WOW, do you ever have a lot to learn:


John 1:36 (RSV)
[SUP]36 [/SUP] and he looked at Jesus as he walked, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God!"

Revelation 5:6-7 (ASV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] And I saw in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, having seven horns, and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent forth into all the earth.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] And he came, and he taketh it out of the right hand of him that sat on the throne.

Revelation 7:16-17 (ASV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun strike upon them, nor any heat:
[SUP]17 [/SUP] for the Lamb that is in the midst of the throne shall be their shepherd, and shall guide them unto fountains of waters of life: and God shall wipe away every tear from their eyes.

Leviticus 4:25 (ESV)
25 Then the priest shall take some of the blood of the sin offering with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering and pour out the rest of its blood at the base of the altar of burnt offering.

1 Corinthians 5:7 (ESV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.

1 Peter 1:18-19 (NIV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers,
[SUP]19 [/SUP] but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect.

Hebrews 4:14 (ESV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.


NOW, IN HIS FUNCTIONS as our HIGH PRIEST, where do you think HE POURED OUT HIS SACRIFICIAL BLOOD?


Revelation 9:13 (RSV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Then the sixth angel blew his trumpet, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar before God,

Revelation 8:2-3 (GW)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Then I saw the seven angels who stand in God's presence, and they were given seven trumpets.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Another angel came with a gold incense burner and stood at the altar. He was given a lot of incense to offer on the gold altar in front of the throne. He offered it with the prayers of all of God's people.
Revelation 11:1 (RSV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told: "Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there,

Jesus Christ poured out his blood on the earth, not in heaven. As such, the brazen altar is symbolic of the earth, hence why the Mosaic tabernacle has the brazen altar OUTSIDE of the tabernacle. However, the altar of incense, which is a different altar, is WITHIN the tabernacle, because the altar of incense is IN HEAVEN, where the true temple of God is, hence,

Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all God's people, on the golden altar in front of the throne. (Revelation 8:3 [NIV])

And because the brazen altar symbolizes the earth, the souls under the altar symbolize the souls in Sheol, for Sheol is beneath the earth, in the center of the earth, which is where the dead are.

 

[christig]

I find it far from comical that you disbelieve the teachings in the Bible and follow a cultish doctrine. I am well aware of
the various uses of language in the Bible and where and when not to use them. As I said before that particular Parable
does not support Soul Sleep in any way. You appear to believe it was some sort of fairy story Christ used to pass the time
because so far you have not presented anything sensible in relation to it. I answer to your question with regard to Christ I will let Peter answer it:

For Christ also died for sins once for all the righteous for the unrighteous
that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but being
being made alive in the spirit, in which he went and preached to the spirits in
prison who formerly did not obey when Gods patience waited in the days of Noah
during the building of the Ark in which a few that is eight persons were saved through
water

1 Peter 3:18 - 20

This explains where Christ went for three days and ties in with other parts of scripture which you ignore. VCO has given you scriptures but it seems that you choose to disbelieve the word of God. This is my last reply to you because anything further said would be a waste of time.

Why do you call what the scriptures teach concerning the state of the dead "cultish" and "fairy story", that the dead sleep and have no thoughts? Did it not occur to you that Jesus Christ was made alive on the third day, as is written, and that after his resurrection, he went and preached to the angels that are imprisoned?

 

[Ahwatukee]

Why do you call what the scriptures teach concerning the state of the dead "cultish" and "fairy story", that the dead sleep and have no thoughts? Did it not occur to you that Jesus Christ was made alive on the third day, as is written, and that after his resurrection, he went and preached to the angels that are imprisoned?

Again, you would have to explain what Jesus meant when he said to the man crucified next to him "Today, you will be with me in paradise." Since both Jesus and that man died that same day, how could they be in paradise that same day? A person would have to be conscious and aware in order to experience paradise. It is because when Jesus and the man died, their spirits/souls departed from their bodies and went down into that same place of comfort/paradise where Abraham and Lazarus were, which was across from Sheol/Hades.

"When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of all who had been martyred for the word of God and for being faithful in their testimony. 10They shouted to the Lord and said, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you judge the people who belong to this world and avenge our blood for what they have done to us?” 11Then a white robe was given to each of them. And they were told to rest a little longer until the full number of their brothers and sisters[SUP]f[/SUP]—their fellow servants of Jesus who were to be martyred—had joined them."

In the scripture above, at the opening of the 5th seal John sees the souls of those who had been killed for being faithful in their testimony of Christ. The scripture demonstrates that their souls are aware and conscious, as they are asking the Lord how long before they are avenged and are given white robes to wear. Kind of hard to do with people who sleeping and know nothing.

Then of course we have the literal event of the rich man and Lazarus which reveals two men who die with their spirts/souls being under the earth, Abraham and Lazarus being in that place of paradise and the rich man's spirit/soul being in Sheol/Hades in torment in flame. People always use the apologetic as this being a parable and that because it completely destroys their claim of soul-sleep. After all, if you have two guys who were said to have died and then their spirits/souls are found somewhere else having a conversation and being tormented in flame, then it would certainly do away with the idea of soul-sleep.

Then we have the account of Elijah and Moses speaking with the Lord on the mount of transfiguration. Hey Elijah and Moses! You guys are supposed to be sleeping, not appearing down here on the earth speaking with the Lord.

It amazes me that people grab ahold of Eccl.9:5 as an apologetic to support their belief in soul-sleep while ignoring all of the scripture which demonstrate the conscious awareness of the soul/spirit after death. It tells me that they are concerned about protecting their adopted belief instead of finding out the real truth. Eccl.9:5 doesn't even say what they claim it does. It does not support soul-sleep whatsoever.

 

[christig]

Again, you would have to explain what Jesus meant when he said to the man crucified next to him "Today, you will be with me in paradise." Since both Jesus and that man died that same day, how could they be in paradise that same day? A person would have to be conscious and aware in order to experience paradise. It is because when Jesus and the man died, their spirits/souls departed from their bodies and went down into that same place of comfort/paradise where Abraham and Lazarus were, which was across from Sheol/Hades.

"When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of all who had been martyred for the word of God and for being faithful in their testimony. 10They shouted to the Lord and said, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you judge the people who belong to this world and avenge our blood for what they have done to us?” 11Then a white robe was given to each of them. And they were told to rest a little longer until the full number of their brothers and sisters[SUP]f[/SUP]—their fellow servants of Jesus who were to be martyred—had joined them."

In the scripture above, at the opening of the 5th seal John sees the souls of those who had been killed for being faithful in their testimony of Christ. The scripture demonstrates that their souls are aware and conscious, as they are asking the Lord how long before they are avenged and are given white robes to wear. Kind of hard to do with people who sleeping and know nothing.

Then of course we have the literal event of the rich man and Lazarus which reveals two men who die with their spirts/souls being under the earth, Abraham and Lazarus being in that place of paradise and the rich man's spirit/soul being in Sheol/Hades in torment in flame. People always use the apologetic as this being a parable and that because it completely destroys their claim of soul-sleep. After all, if you have two guys who were said to have died and then their spirits/souls are found somewhere else having a conversation and being tormented in flame, then it would certainly do away with the idea of soul-sleep.

Then we have the account of Elijah and Moses speaking with the Lord on the mount of transfiguration. Hey Elijah and Moses! You guys are supposed to be sleeping, not appearing down here on the earth speaking with the Lord.

It amazes me that people grab ahold of Eccl.9:5 as an apologetic to support their belief in soul-sleep while ignoring all of the scripture which demonstrate the conscious awareness of the soul/spirit after death. It tells me that they are concerned about protecting their adopted belief instead of finding out the real truth. Eccl.9:5 doesn't even say what they claim it does. It does not support soul-sleep whatsoever.

That is easy to explain, because when Jesus Christ said "today you will be with me in Paradise" he meant "Because of today you will be with me in paradise". It is obvious from scripture that,

1. Jesus Christ did not go to paradise, he went to Sheol.
2. Sheol is in the heart of the earth where Jesus Christ said he would go 3 days and 3 nights.
3. Sheol is not paradise nor does it have a paradise, for it is in the center of the earth. The center of the earth is not a paradise.

As such, you must interpret that statement Jesus Christ in the manner I just said, because it would also contradict countless other scriptures concerning the time of the resurrections and the state of the dead.

 

[VCO]

Because the soul is YOUR BEING. And what gives life to your soul is the BREATH, AKA the SPIRIT. Once the spirit departs your body, your soul becomes dead. This is why it is written, "you will not abandon my soul in Sheol", because the soul of Jesus Christ was in Sheol for 3 days and 3 nights. You lack understanding concerning the distinction between spirit and soul. Even in the Greek and Hebrew, there is no distinction between spirit and breath, they mean the same thing.

I will try one last time to enlighten you, after this you are on your own with your false doctrine that you have been taught.


SOUL in the Greek is Genesis 2:7 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became aliving being.


The KJV and ASV ONLY say living soul, which is an archaic expression, that you are misunderstanding, and it is an expression symbolizing a man becoming a living being; much the same as "sleeps" is sometimes used to symbolize "he died".

NKJV - living being
NASB - living being
HCSB - living being
NRSV - living being
RSV - living being
ESV - living creature
NIV - living being
NCV - living person
NKJV - living beingGWT - living being
YLT - living creature
AMP - living being
NJB - living being
NLT - living person

ETC.


So when GOD is referring to man being made of three distinct parts, WHAT IS SOUL, and WHAT IS SPIRIT?


1 Thessalonians 5:23 (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit <G4151> and soul <G5590> and body <G4983> be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Soul is really easy to define, because one glance at the Greek word should be a dead give away as to what GOD calls SOUL; which is psychē. The NASB Dictionary tells us that word can be translated to "breath", "soul", "life", "heart", "person", and EVEN can refer to the "HUMAN MIND", depending on how it is used. Now compared to the tangible part of the human being, the BODY, it only makes sense that the SOUL is the intangible part. The human mind with all of it's various parts: thoughts, emotions, feelings, will, cognitive abilities, memories, psyche, cravings, spark of life, etc.

So what then is HUMAN SPIRIT? It is the third part of a Human Being, that completes our being made in the image of GOD. IT is FORMED WITHIN MAN by the CREATOR, is dead at natural birth because of our inherited sin nature, thus it is the part that was ONCE DEAD, but has been birthed into Eternal Life specifically by Holy Spirit, becoming the Part of Man that IS IN TUNE WITH THE WILL OF GOD, while the SOUL is in tune with the will of the flesh. IT IS THE PART OF A HUMAM BEING THAT GROWS AND MATURES AND BECOMES DOMINATE OVER THE SOUL, AS IT FEEDS ON THE WORD OF GOD.

No, whoever taught you it is the Breath that GOD breathed into Adam, is in error.

 

[christig]

I will try one last time to enlighten you, after this you are on your own with your false doctrine that you have been taught.


SOUL in the Greek is Genesis 2:7 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became aliving being.


The KJV and ASV ONLY say living soul, which is an archaic expression, that you are misunderstanding, and it is an expression symbolizing a man becoming a living being; much the same as "sleeps" is sometimes used to symbolize "he died".

NKJV - living being
NASB - living being
HCSB - living being
NRSV - living being
RSV - living being
ESV - living creature
NIV - living being
NCV - living person
NKJV - living beingGWT - living being
YLT - living creature
AMP - living being
NJB - living being
NLT - living person

ETC.


So when GOD is referring to man being made of three distinct parts, WHAT IS SOUL, and WHAT IS SPIRIT?


1 Thessalonians 5:23 (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit <G4151> and soul <G5590> and body <G4983> be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Soul is really easy to define, because one glance at the Greek word should be a dead give away as to what GOD calls SOUL; which ispsychē. The NASB Dictionary tells us that word can be translated to "breath", "soul", "life", "heart", "person", and EVEN can refer to the "HUMAN MIND", depending on how it is used. Now compared to the tangible part of the human being, the BODY, it only makes sense that the SOUL is the intangible part. The human mind with all of it's various parts: thoughts, emotions, feelings, will, cognitive abilities, memories, psyche, cravings, spark of life, etc.

So what then is HUMAN SPIRIT? It is the third part of a Human Being, that completes our being made in the image of GOD. IT is FORMED WITHIN MAN by the CREATOR, is dead at natural birth because of our inherited sin nature, thus it is the part that was ONCE DEAD, but has been birthed into Eternal Life specifically by Holy Spirit, becoming the Part of Man that IS IN TUNE WITH THE WILL OF GOD, while the SOUL is in tune with the will of the flesh. IT IS THE PART OF A HUMAM BEING THAT GROWS AND MATURES AND BECOMES DOMINATE OVER THE SOUL, AS IT FEEDS ON THE WORD OF GOD.

No, whoever taught you it is the Breath that GOD breathed into Adam, is in error.

Your error can be cast out with a very simple scriptural logic,

And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two by two of all flesh in which is the spirit of life. (Genesis 7:15 [JB2000])

Animals have the same spirit men have beause THE SPIRIT IS THE BREATH. Your breath is what gives you life, but once your breath is gone, your body AND your soul dies. The breath is what makes you LIVING. Without the breath, you are DEAD. Try to stop breathing for long enough and see what happens, once you deprive the body of the spirit, meaning the air you breath, you will die. Your being is your SOUL, that is brought to life by the SPIRIT.

This breath we have, is not the same as the "Spirit of God" or the "Holy Spirit", which is an actual being that is MADE OF WIND/AIR, that then enters into the body of a believer THROUGH the breath, to inhabit the body of a believer. He is a literal being made of "spirit", meaning air, which is why the holy spirit is invisible to the eye. Just as there are demons and fallen angels that are made of air that can enter into and inhabit the body of flesh that breath air, so does the holy spirit enter the body of believers through the breath.

I have a study on this here, the difference between our natural body (housing breath and soul), and the spirit bodies of angels http://www.wisdomofgod.co/2016/09/17/the-soul-and-spirit-of-the-natural-body-and-the-spiritual-body-of-the-first-resurrection/ .

 

[christig]

I will try one last time to enlighten you, after this you are on your own with your false doctrine that you have been taught.


SOUL in the Greek is Genesis 2:7 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became aliving being.


The KJV and ASV ONLY say living soul, which is an archaic expression, that you are misunderstanding, and it is an expression symbolizing a man becoming a living being; much the same as "sleeps" is sometimes used to symbolize "he died".

NKJV - living being
NASB - living being
HCSB - living being
NRSV - living being
RSV - living being
ESV - living creature
NIV - living being
NCV - living person
NKJV - living beingGWT - living being
YLT - living creature
AMP - living being
NJB - living being
NLT - living person

ETC.


So when GOD is referring to man being made of three distinct parts, WHAT IS SOUL, and WHAT IS SPIRIT?


1 Thessalonians 5:23 (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit <G4151> and soul <G5590> and body <G4983> be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Soul is really easy to define, because one glance at the Greek word should be a dead give away as to what GOD calls SOUL; which ispsychē. The NASB Dictionary tells us that word can be translated to "breath", "soul", "life", "heart", "person", and EVEN can refer to the "HUMAN MIND", depending on how it is used. Now compared to the tangible part of the human being, the BODY, it only makes sense that the SOUL is the intangible part. The human mind with all of it's various parts: thoughts, emotions, feelings, will, cognitive abilities, memories, psyche, cravings, spark of life, etc.

So what then is HUMAN SPIRIT? It is the third part of a Human Being, that completes our being made in the image of GOD. IT is FORMED WITHIN MAN by the CREATOR, is dead at natural birth because of our inherited sin nature, thus it is the part that was ONCE DEAD, but has been birthed into Eternal Life specifically by Holy Spirit, becoming the Part of Man that IS IN TUNE WITH THE WILL OF GOD, while the SOUL is in tune with the will of the flesh. IT IS THE PART OF A HUMAM BEING THAT GROWS AND MATURES AND BECOMES DOMINATE OVER THE SOUL, AS IT FEEDS ON THE WORD OF GOD.

No, whoever taught you it is the Breath that GOD breathed into Adam, is in error.

Also, even you yourself affirmed it by trying to use a different translation to try to refer to the soul as "being". Sure, call it being, call it soul, that is where YOU ARE. Hence why the "soul", or the "being", of Jesus Christ, whatever you want to call it, was in Sheol, BECAUSE THAT IS WHERE HE WAS, not where the spirit went when it returned to God who gave it. Once the spirit departs from your body, all that is left is your BEING/SOUL, that is dead without the spirit that gave it life. It would be no different than if you had a hard drive with memory in it, when it plug it into a power source, it is active and functioning. Once you remove the power source, the hard drive is inanimate, while still having all the information/knowledge concerning you. This hard drive can be stored in a backshelf for future use, or it can be destroyed. The same with the being/soul, which is stored in Sheol, to be resurrected in the future. And this soul/being can also be destroyed, hence "fear him who is able to destroy body and soul in Gehenna".

 

[VCO]

I find it comical how you will take the figurative passage of the rich man and Lazarus literally, and then will take the literal passages of the dead being called asleep figuratively. But let us dig a little further, and perhaps you may come to understand. Where was Jesus Christ for three days and three nights?

FIGURATIVE, who on God's green earth taught you that LIE. No other Parable Jesus taught EVER gave a Name to some of the Characters. It is CLEARLY a biographical story. Not only is the naming of Characters EVIDENCE that it is Biographical, but HE EVEN GAVE THE EXACT NUMBER OF BROTHERS THAT THE RICH MAN HAD; WHICH WOULD TOTALLY NOT RELEVANT IN THE TELLING OF A PARABLE. Why did HE not name the Rich Man? Most likely because at least one or more of the brothers were present in the crowd, and JESUS had enough Love, kindness, and respect to NOT make a public embarrassment of those brothers.

 

[VCO]

Also, even you yourself affirmed it by trying to use a different translation to try to refer to the soul as "being". Sure, call it being, call it soul, that is where YOU ARE. Hence why the "soul", or the "being", of Jesus Christ, whatever you want to call it, was in Sheol, BECAUSE THAT IS WHERE HE WAS, not where the spirit went when it returned to God who gave it. Once the spirit departs from your body, all that is left is your BEING/SOUL, that is dead without the spirit that gave it life. It would be no different than if you had a hard drive with memory in it, when it plug it into a power source, it is active and functioning. Once you remove the power source, the hard drive is inanimate, while still having all the information/knowledge concerning you. This hard drive can be stored in a backshelf for future use, or it can be destroyed. The same with the being/soul, which is stored in Sheol, to be resurrected in the future. And this soul/being can also be destroyed, hence "fear him who is able to destroy body and soul in Gehenna".

 

[christig]

FIGURATIVE, who on God's green earth taught you that LIE. No other Parable Jesus taught EVER gave a Name to some of the Characters. It is CLEARLY a biographical story. Not only is the naming of Characters EVIDENCE that it is Biographical, but HE EVEN GAVE THE EXACT NUMBER OF BROTHERS THAT THE RICH MAN HAD; WHICH WOULD TOTALLY NOT RELEVANT IN THE TELLING OF A PARABLE. Why did HE not name the Rich Man? Most likely because at least one or more of the brothers were present in the crowd, and JESUS had enough Love, kindness, and respect to NOT make a public embarrassment of those brothers.

The passage is in a series of parables that immediately precede it, hence,

And he said also to his disciples, A certain man was rich, who had a manager; and this one was accused by him as wasting his possessions. (Luke 16:1 [ABP])

And he said, A certain man had two sons. (Luke 15:11 [ABP])

“There was a rich manwho was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. (Luke 16:19 [NIV])

​

The reason that Lazarus is mentioned by name because his name is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew name Eliezar who was a servant in the household of Abraham, who was not heir, symbolizing the Gentiles who were not heirs. And the reason 5 brothers are mentioned specifically is because that is how many sibilings the tribe of Judah had from his mother Leah, which are Jacob, Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, Zebulun, of which the Jews were mainly composed of,

The sons of Leah, the first-born of Jacob, Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, Zebulun. (Genesis 35:23 [ABP])​

I have an entire study on the interpretation of the parable of the rich man and Lazarus The Interpretation of the Rich Man and Lazarus Parable | Wisdom of God .