The Rapture

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Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
400
83
Brother Endoscopy,

When do we see His face?

When does the world see His face?

No man can see His face and live Ex 33:20.

So when does every eye see Him?
First explain this conundrum.
Jesus said I and the Father are one.
He was talking to his disciples.
He taught an enormous amount of people like at the sermon on the Mount. How come they all lived.
ROFL
Here is the answer to your question. It's most of Matthew 24.

Matthew 24 AMPC Amplified Classic

3 While He was seated on thge Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately and said, Tell us, when will this take place, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end (the completion, the consummation) of the age?
4 Jesus answered them, Be careful that no one misleads you [deceiving you and leading you into error].
5 For many will come in (on the strength of) My name [appropriating the name which belongs to Me], saying, I am the Christ (the Messiah), and they will lead many astray.
6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars; see that you are not frightened or troubled, for this must take place, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in place after place;
8 All this is but the beginning [the early pains] of the birth pangs [of the intolerable anguish].
9 Then they will hand you over to suffer affliction and tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.
10 And then many will be offended and repelled and will begin to distrust and desert [Him Whom they ought to trust and obey] and will stumble and fall away and betray one another and pursue one another with hatred.
11 And many false prophets will rise up and deceive and lead many into error.
12 And the love of the great body of people will grow cold because of the multiplied lawlessness and iniquity,
13 But he who endures to the end will be saved.
14 And this good news of the kingdom (the Gospel) will be preached throughout the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then will come the end.
15 So when you see the appalling sacrilege [the abomination that astonishes and makes desolate], spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the Holy Place—let the reader take notice and ponder and consider and heed [this]—
16 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains;
17 Let him who is on the housetop not come down and go into the house to take anything;
18 And let him who is in the field not turn back to get his overcoat.
19 And alas for the women who are pregnant and for those who have nursing babies in those days!
20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath.
21 For then there will be great tribulation (affliction, distress, and oppression) such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now—no, and never will be [again].
22 And if those days had not been shortened, no human being would endure and survive, but for the sake of the elect (God’s chosen ones) those days will be shortened.
23 If anyone says to you then, Behold, here is the Christ (the Messiah)! or, There He is!—do not believe it.
24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise, and they will show great signs and wonders so as to deceive and lead astray, if possible, even the elect (God’s chosen ones).
25 See, I have warned you beforehand.
26 So if they say to you, Behold, He is in the wilderness (desert)—do not go out there; if they tell you, Behold, He is in the secret places or inner rooms—do not believe it.
27 For just as the lightning flashes from the east and shines and is seen as far as the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
28 Wherever there is a fallen body (a corpse), there the vultures (or eagles) will flock together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not shed its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn and beat their breasts and lament in anguish, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory [in brilliancy and splendor].
31 And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect (His chosen ones) from the four winds, [even] from one end of the universe to the other.
32 From the fig tree learn this lesson: as soon as its young shoots become soft and tender and it puts out its leaves, you know of a surety that summer is near.
33 So also when you see these signs, all taken together, coming to pass, you may know of a surety that He is near, at the very doors.
34 Truly I tell you, this generation (the whole multitude of people living at the same time, in a definite, given period) will not pass away till all these things taken together take place.
35 Sky and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
36 But of that [exact] day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
37 As were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
38 For just as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, [men] marrying and [women] being given in marriage, until the [very] day when Noah went into the ark,
39 And they did not know or understand until the flood came and swept them all away—so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
 
Last edited:

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,809
112
63
First explain this conundrum.
Jesus said I and the Father are one.
He was talking to his disciples.
He taught an enormous amount of people like at the sermon on the Mount. How come they all lived.
ROFL
Here is the answer to your question. It's most of Matthew 24.

Matthew 24 AMPC Amplified Classic

3 While He was seated on thge Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately and said, Tell us, when will this take place, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end (the completion, the consummation) of the age?
4 Jesus answered them, Be careful that no one misleads you [deceiving you and leading you into error].
5 For many will come in (on the strength of) My name [appropriating the name which belongs to Me], saying, I am the Christ (the Messiah), and they will lead many astray.
6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars; see that you are not frightened or troubled, for this must take place, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in place after place;
8 All this is but the beginning [the early pains] of the birth pangs [of the intolerable anguish].
9 Then they will hand you over to suffer affliction and tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.
10 And then many will be offended and repelled and will begin to distrust and desert [Him Whom they ought to trust and obey] and will stumble and fall away and betray one another and pursue one another with hatred.
11 And many false prophets will rise up and deceive and lead many into error.
12 And the love of the great body of people will grow cold because of the multiplied lawlessness and iniquity,
13 But he who endures to the end will be saved.
14 And this good news of the kingdom (the Gospel) will be preached throughout the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then will come the end.
15 So when you see the appalling sacrilege [the abomination that astonishes and makes desolate], spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the Holy Place—let the reader take notice and ponder and consider and heed [this]—
16 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains;
17 Let him who is on the housetop not come down and go into the house to take anything;
18 And let him who is in the field not turn back to get his overcoat.
19 And alas for the women who are pregnant and for those who have nursing babies in those days!
20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath.
21 For then there will be great tribulation (affliction, distress, and oppression) such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now—no, and never will be [again].
22 And if those days had not been shortened, no human being would endure and survive, but for the sake of the elect (God’s chosen ones) those days will be shortened.
23 If anyone says to you then, Behold, here is the Christ (the Messiah)! or, There He is!—do not believe it.
24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise, and they will show great signs and wonders so as to deceive and lead astray, if possible, even the elect (God’s chosen ones).
25 See, I have warned you beforehand.
26 So if they say to you, Behold, He is in the wilderness (desert)—do not go out there; if they tell you, Behold, He is in the secret places or inner rooms—do not believe it.
27 For just as the lightning flashes from the east and shines and is seen as far as the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
28 Wherever there is a fallen body (a corpse), there the vultures (or eagles) will flock together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not shed its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn and beat their breasts and lament in anguish, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory [in brilliancy and splendor].
31 And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect (His chosen ones) from the four winds, [even] from one end of the universe to the other.
32 From the fig tree learn this lesson: as soon as its young shoots become soft and tender and it puts out its leaves, you know of a surety that summer is near.
33 So also when you see these signs, all taken together, coming to pass, you may know of a surety that He is near, at the very doors.
34 Truly I tell you, this generation (the whole multitude of people living at the same time, in a definite, given period) will not pass away till all these things taken together take place.
35 Sky and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
36 But of that [exact] day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
37 As were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
38 For just as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, [men] marrying and [women] being given in marriage, until the [very] day when Noah went into the ark,
39 And they did not know or understand until the flood came and swept them all away—so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

When do we see His face?

When does the world see His face?

When does every eye see Him?

--

Answering with generalities is avoiding direct answers to the simple questions.

It's probably because you can't answer them.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
400
83
Everything just goes around and around in a big circle with you. I already explained all of this to you and indeed it did happen. Rome killed 1/3 of the Jews in 70 AD and that was the message. Christ presence returned at the end of that age to His generation and all the Jews saw, just as He said they would.
1/3 of Jews killed is not 1/3 of all mankind killed.
Try again without redefining the words of the text.
In case you don't understand I totally reject your view of eschatology!!
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
400
83
I use the NKJV for normal daily reading, KJV or YLT if I want to dig deeper. Yes, that's the problem, most teachers (pastors) have learned in several institutions from futurist dispensationalists. This is why most of the teaching today is totally messed up. Did you know that none of the early church writers from the 2-3 centuries ever said a word about Christ's second coming. Heck, that's all the disciples could talk about once Jesus left. Why do you think that is? It's because He returned and they all knew it for 200 years.

When you have multiple contemporary historians, Tacitus and Josephus writing about chariots and phantom solders in armor in the sky circling the cities of Israel, what do you conclude about that?

Christ said He was returning to THAT generation, to those standing there, before they have gone through all the towns of Israel. Was He wrong? Also, the Greek says it's His presence which returns, not Him as a visible man.



The KJV is 400 years out of date with the English language.
For example
KJV Thou shalt not kill.
NIV You shall not commit murder.
In 1611 kill meant murder but not today.

Here is lots of information about KJV problems.

KJV Issues

https://ehrmanblog.org/problems-with-the-language-of-the-king-james-version/

https://newrepublic.com/article/107222/making-it-new

http://www.bibletexts.com/topics/kjv.htm

http://www.equip.org/article/is-your-modern-translation-corrupt/

http://www.hickoryhammockbaptist.org/kjva1.html

https://www.gotquestions.org/different-gospel.html

The Use and Misuse of the King James Bible: An Interview with Mark Ward
Jonathan Petersen
March 13, 2018

https://www.biblegateway.com/blog/2018/03/the-use-and-misuse-of-the-king-james-bible-an-interview-with-mark-ward/?utm_source=bg&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=weeklybrief&spMailingID=56207113&spUserID=MTY4MDQ1MTM2NDgyS0&spJobID=1362532267&spReportId=MTM2MjUzMjI2NwS2

What is going on with links? Sometime they don't work.
 
Last edited:

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
2,915
817
113
Here's how I've come to interpret the order of events so far...


[TABLE="class: grid, width: 500, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD]Matthew 24[/TD]
[TD]Luke 21[/TD]
[TD]Daniel 7[/TD]
[TD]Daniel 8[/TD]
[TD]Daniel 9[/TD]
[TD]Revelation[/TD]
[TD]World Events[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Chapter 4
Chapter 12[/TD]
[TD]Christ Ascends to heaven 28 AD[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Chapter 12. War in heaven[/TD]
[TD]Satan is cast down w/wrath[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]5-14. False Christs; nations against nations; famine & pestilences; Persecution[/TD]
[TD]8-19. False Christs; nations against nations; famine & pestilences; Persecution[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Chapter 5 & 6. Four horsemen sent to world;

Saints slain for testimony[/TD]
[TD]Christ looses scroll seals

Jews persecuted for gospel; Apostles martyred; Steven death 34 AD[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]20. Jerusalem surrounded; desolation nigh[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Rome sacks Jerusalem 66 AD[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2. No stone will be left standing[/TD]
[TD]6. No stone will be left standing[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Temple destroyed 70 AD[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]16. Flee to Mountains[/TD]
[TD]21. Flee to Mountains[/TD]
[TD]8. Little horn[/TD]
[TD]9. Little horn from he-goat[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Chapter 13
Chapter 17[/TD]
[TD]Jews Exiled; Papal Primacy 537 AD[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]15. Abomination of Desolation Setup in Holy Place[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]13. Transgression of desolation[/TD]
[TD]21. Overspreading of Abominations[/TD]
[TD]17:4-5. cup full of abominations; Mother of abominations[/TD]
[TD]Dome of the Rock Built in Jerusalem 688 AD[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]21. Great Tribulation[/TD]
[TD]23. Great Distress; Wrath upon this people (Jews)

24. Land trodden by gentiles until time fulfilled[/TD]
[TD]21. Beast prevails against saints

25. Saints given into beast's hand[/TD]
[TD]13. Host trodden underfoot.

24. Goat destroys the mighty and holy people[/TD]
[TD]21. Land made desolate.

Oblation ceases[/TD]
[TD]7:14. Great Multitude: These are they which come out of Great Tribulation[/TD]
[TD]688 AD to 1948

[1260 days]

Islamic Rule over North Africa & Middle East

Holy Wars for Jerusalem;

Slavery of exiled Jews;

World Wars[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]22. For elect's sake days are shortened[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]25. Time, Times, and half a time[/TD]
[TD]14. 2300 "evenings & mornings" (from the time of 3rd year king Belshazzar)[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Ch12:6. woman fled into wilderness 1260 "days"[/TD]
[TD]1948 AD: UN makes slavery prohibited & State of Israel Created[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]29. Signs in sun, moon, stars[/TD]
[TD]25. Signs in heaven & on earth; nations perplexed; seas roaring[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Ch6:12-14. earthquakes, Sun Darkened; Moon[/TD]
[TD]Blood moons 2015 AD;

Solar Eclipse & Rev 12 sign 2017 AD

Tsunamis; Hurricanes; mass animal death 2015-2018[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]32. Parable of the fig tree[/TD]
[TD]29. Parable of the fig tree[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Ch7:3. Servants of God sealed; 144,000 of tribes of Israel[/TD]
[TD]2018 (Present day). Blindness of Israel is being removed.

Returning to Commandments + Faith in Christ[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]29. Heavens shaken[/TD]
[TD]25. Heaven's shaken; Men in terror[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Ch 6:13-16. stars fall; men hide themselves in caves[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]HUGE Celestial events? (not yet)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]31. Son of man on Clouds; Gathers Elect[/TD]
[TD]27. Son of man with power & glory[/TD]
[TD]13. Son of man comes with clouds[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Chapter 14. 144,000 with the lamb on Mt. Zion[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Gathering Moment (not yet)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]40. One taken the other left.[/TD]
[TD]35. Snare upon the earth[/TD]
[TD]26. Saints judge & destroy beast[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Chapters 8-11
Chapters 15-19
Judgments upon the earth[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]God's Wrath (not yet)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


I ran out of room to include other parallel prophesies but I think this shows what I believe regarding when the gathering is.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
400
83
Here's how I've come to interpret the order of events so far...


[TABLE="class: grid, width: 500, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD]Matthew 24[/TD]
[TD]Luke 21[/TD]
[TD]Daniel 7[/TD]
[TD]Daniel 8[/TD]
[TD]Daniel 9[/TD]
[TD]Revelation[/TD]
[TD]World Events[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Chapter 4
Chapter 12[/TD]
[TD]Christ Ascends to heaven 28 AD[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Chapter 12. War in heaven[/TD]
[TD]Satan is cast down w/wrath[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]5-14. False Christs; nations against nations; famine & pestilences; Persecution[/TD]
[TD]8-19. False Christs; nations against nations; famine & pestilences; Persecution[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Chapter 5 & 6. Four horsemen sent to world;

Saints slain for testimony[/TD]
[TD]Christ looses scroll seals

Jews persecuted for gospel; Apostles martyred; Steven death 34 AD[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]20. Jerusalem surrounded; desolation nigh[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Rome sacks Jerusalem 66 AD[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2. No stone will be left standing[/TD]
[TD]6. No stone will be left standing[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Temple destroyed 70 AD[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]16. Flee to Mountains[/TD]
[TD]21. Flee to Mountains[/TD]
[TD]8. Little horn[/TD]
[TD]9. Little horn from he-goat[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Chapter 13
Chapter 17[/TD]
[TD]Jews Exiled; Papal Primacy 537 AD[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]15. Abomination of Desolation Setup in Holy Place[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]13. Transgression of desolation[/TD]
[TD]21. Overspreading of Abominations[/TD]
[TD]17:4-5. cup full of abominations; Mother of abominations[/TD]
[TD]Dome of the Rock Built in Jerusalem 688 AD[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]21. Great Tribulation[/TD]
[TD]23. Great Distress; Wrath upon this people (Jews)

24. Land trodden by gentiles until time fulfilled[/TD]
[TD]21. Beast prevails against saints

25. Saints given into beast's hand[/TD]
[TD]13. Host trodden underfoot.

24. Goat destroys the mighty and holy people[/TD]
[TD]21. Land made desolate.

Oblation ceases[/TD]
[TD]7:14. Great Multitude: These are they which come out of Great Tribulation[/TD]
[TD]688 AD to 1948

[1260 days]

Islamic Rule over North Africa & Middle East

Holy Wars for Jerusalem;

Slavery of exiled Jews;

World Wars[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]22. For elect's sake days are shortened[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]25. Time, Times, and half a time[/TD]
[TD]14. 2300 "evenings & mornings" (from the time of 3rd year king Belshazzar)[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Ch12:6. woman fled into wilderness 1260 "days"[/TD]
[TD]1948 AD: UN makes slavery prohibited & State of Israel Created[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]29. Signs in sun, moon, stars[/TD]
[TD]25. Signs in heaven & on earth; nations perplexed; seas roaring[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Ch6:12-14. earthquakes, Sun Darkened; Moon[/TD]
[TD]Blood moons 2015 AD;

Solar Eclipse & Rev 12 sign 2017 AD

Tsunamis; Hurricanes; mass animal death 2015-2018[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]32. Parable of the fig tree[/TD]
[TD]29. Parable of the fig tree[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Ch7:3. Servants of God sealed; 144,000 of tribes of Israel[/TD]
[TD]2018 (Present day). Blindness of Israel is being removed.

Returning to Commandments + Faith in Christ[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]29. Heavens shaken[/TD]
[TD]25. Heaven's shaken; Men in terror[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Ch 6:13-16. stars fall; men hide themselves in caves[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]HUGE Celestial events? (not yet)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]31. Son of man on Clouds; Gathers Elect[/TD]
[TD]27. Son of man with power & glory[/TD]
[TD]13. Son of man comes with clouds[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Chapter 14. 144,000 with the lamb on Mt. Zion[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Gathering Moment (not yet)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]40. One taken the other left.[/TD]
[TD]35. Snare upon the earth[/TD]
[TD]26. Saints judge & destroy beast[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Chapters 8-11
Chapters 15-19
Judgments upon the earth[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]God's Wrath (not yet)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


I ran out of room to include other parallel prophesies but I think this shows what I believe regarding when the gathering is.
You and many others ignore that Daniel is sealed until the end. Too many prophecies like in the Gospels haven't taken place. Revelation has the same type of symbolic language so is also sealed. Due to this issue eschatology is only a guess!! Therefore your chart contains flaws. Theologians studying these scriptures for centuries have created 4 different views. Possibly one of them is close to the truth. We won't know until it starts happening. The eclipses shortly past and in 2024 seem to indicate the end is getting close. An X is drawn on the USA and one of them draws a line through 7 cities named Salem.

Divine Message of August Eclipse
https://www.unsealed.org/2017/06/the-divine-message-of-august-eclipse.html

Additional post
https://www.unsealed.org/2017/08/america-writing-is-on-wall.html
 

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,809
112
63
You and many others ignore that Daniel is sealed until the end. Too many prophecies like in the Gospels haven't taken place. Revelation has the same type of symbolic language so is also sealed. Due to this issue eschatology is only a guess!! Therefore your chart contains flaws. Theologians studying these scriptures for centuries have created 4 different views. Possibly one of them is close to the truth. We won't know until it starts happening. The eclipses shortly past and in 2024 seem to indicate the end is getting close. An X is drawn on the USA and one of them draws a line through 7 cities named Salem.

Divine Message of August Eclipse
https://www.unsealed.org/2017/06/the-divine-message-of-august-eclipse.html

Additional post
https://www.unsealed.org/2017/08/america-writing-is-on-wall.html


Ok, Let's see if Daniel is closed.

Daniel ch 1, Daniel refuses the king's meat.

Ch 2, The statue of the nations.

Ch 3, The fiery furnace.

Ch 4, King Neb.'s dream

Ch 5, The writing on the wall.

Ch 6, The lion's den.

Ch 7, The 4 beasts/nations.

Ch 8, The silver empire Med/Per and the brass empire Greece, Dan. 8:20-21.

Ch 9, The desolation of Jerusalem Dan 9:2

Ch 10, Persia and Greece Dan 10:20

Ch 11, Persia and Greece Dan 11:1-4

Ch 12, The times of 70 ad described.

So, it is only closed to those who choose to keep their eyes closed.

It's probably too hard for you to understand.
 

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,809
112
63
First explain this conundrum.
Jesus said I and the Father are one.
He was talking to his disciples.
He taught an enormous amount of people like at the sermon on the Mount. How come they all lived.
ROFL
Here is the answer to your question. It's most of Matthew 24.

Matthew 24 AMPC Amplified Classic

3 While He was seated on thge Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately and said, Tell us, when will this take place, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end (the completion, the consummation) of the age?
4 Jesus answered them, Be careful that no one misleads you [deceiving you and leading you into error].
5 For many will come in (on the strength of) My name [appropriating the name which belongs to Me], saying, I am the Christ (the Messiah), and they will lead many astray.
6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars; see that you are not frightened or troubled, for this must take place, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in place after place;
8 All this is but the beginning [the early pains] of the birth pangs [of the intolerable anguish].
9 Then they will hand you over to suffer affliction and tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.
10 And then many will be offended and repelled and will begin to distrust and desert [Him Whom they ought to trust and obey] and will stumble and fall away and betray one another and pursue one another with hatred.
11 And many false prophets will rise up and deceive and lead many into error.
12 And the love of the great body of people will grow cold because of the multiplied lawlessness and iniquity,
13 But he who endures to the end will be saved.
14 And this good news of the kingdom (the Gospel) will be preached throughout the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then will come the end.
15 So when you see the appalling sacrilege [the abomination that astonishes and makes desolate], spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the Holy Place—let the reader take notice and ponder and consider and heed [this]—
16 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains;
17 Let him who is on the housetop not come down and go into the house to take anything;
18 And let him who is in the field not turn back to get his overcoat.
19 And alas for the women who are pregnant and for those who have nursing babies in those days!
20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath.
21 For then there will be great tribulation (affliction, distress, and oppression) such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now—no, and never will be [again].
22 And if those days had not been shortened, no human being would endure and survive, but for the sake of the elect (God’s chosen ones) those days will be shortened.
23 If anyone says to you then, Behold, here is the Christ (the Messiah)! or, There He is!—do not believe it.
24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise, and they will show great signs and wonders so as to deceive and lead astray, if possible, even the elect (God’s chosen ones).
25 See, I have warned you beforehand.
26 So if they say to you, Behold, He is in the wilderness (desert)—do not go out there; if they tell you, Behold, He is in the secret places or inner rooms—do not believe it.
27 For just as the lightning flashes from the east and shines and is seen as far as the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
28 Wherever there is a fallen body (a corpse), there the vultures (or eagles) will flock together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not shed its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn and beat their breasts and lament in anguish, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory [in brilliancy and splendor].
31 And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect (His chosen ones) from the four winds, [even] from one end of the universe to the other.
32 From the fig tree learn this lesson: as soon as its young shoots become soft and tender and it puts out its leaves, you know of a surety that summer is near.
33 So also when you see these signs, all taken together, coming to pass, you may know of a surety that He is near, at the very doors.
34 Truly I tell you, this generation (the whole multitude of people living at the same time, in a definite, given period) will not pass away till all these things taken together take place.
35 Sky and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
36 But of that [exact] day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
37 As were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
38 For just as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, [men] marrying and [women] being given in marriage, until the [very] day when Noah went into the ark,
39 And they did not know or understand until the flood came and swept them all away—so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
I answered most of this this in post 9460.

When Jesus comes He will be in His glory.

Which coming is that? Can you answer?
 

abcdef

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Mar 30, 2016
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Brother Endoscopy,

I'm sure that you agree that Jesus in ruling from the eternal throne of David in heaven right now. Jesus is in His glory on that throne. He left that glory and came to this earth, where He suffered and died.

Will Jesus again, leave the throne of glory behind? Leave His glory behind? Not be glorified for a thousand years?

You are saying that Jesus will bring His glory with Him, the throne of God, to this material world where He will rule in a material Jerusalem on planet earth.

But no man can see His face and live Ex 33:20. So everyone on earth would be dead if that were to happen.

What happens when the material planet meets the face of Jesus is shown in Rev 20:11, They fly away from His face because they are not perfect, but constantly changing in a state of decay.

Only that which is perfect can remain in His presence and see His face, or God would become imperfect.






Matthew 24 NIV
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.


This shows the end of the times of the gentiles where Israel is restored to Jerusalem. Also see Lk 21:20-24, 24.



Matt 24:1-2, The prophecy Jesus makes about the temple of His time, which was fulfilled in 70 ad.

24:3, The questions about when the prophecy about the 70 ad temple will be fulfilled.

24:4-5, Warning about false Christ's to come before the destruction.

24:6-8, Description of events before the destruction of 70 ad.

24:9-14, Persecution of the apostles. This was spoken to the 4 apostles present at the time Mk 13:3, and fulfilled by them.

24:15, The AoD of Daniel happens before 70 ad., to satisfy the requirement in Daniel that Jesus is involved in the time line/period. It cannot happen in the future because it has already been fulfilled. No gaps in the timeline.

24:16-21, Those in Judea are to flee when the Romans are coming to destroy Jerusalem and Israel Lk 21:20, surrounding the city. The great trouble is the time after Israel/Judea flee, after 70 ad. The times of the gentiles 70 ad-1967 Lk 21:24.

24:22, If the time was not shortened, no flesh (natural branches) of Israel would be saved alive to restore Jerusalem and end the ToG's.

24:23-26, Warning about false Christs.

24:27, The coming of Jesus at the dest of Jerusalem will be plainly seen, like lightning.

24:28, Death is coming at that time. Jerusalem, not the planet.
---

24:29, Immediately after the dest of Jerusalem in 70 ad, the lights of God's word through Israel will be greatly dimmed.

24:30,The sign appears first, the sign is Israel returning from the gentile nations to restore Jerusalem at the end of the times of the gentiles. See Lk 21:24.

24:30, The nations mourn when they see Jerusalem beginning to be restored. But this is not instant, there is time between these events, the sign, the mourning, and seeing Him. Apparently years.

24:31, This verse show a gathering, where previous verses have shown a scattering. But it is not the 7th trumpet gathering, it is the 5th trumpet of separation, calling on Israel to separate themselves from the gentile nations and return to Jerusalem. The 5th trumpet shows that they are driven out of the gentile nations, as they were well settled into place. Poland, Germany, Eastern Europe, etc.

24:32-33, As the kingdom/church of Israel began to grow in number, the natural branches were cut off. The result was that all the branches suffered, mainly at the hands of Rome (1900 yrs).

24:34, The apostle John lived to see the destruction of 70 ad, and the beginning of the ToG's.

24:35, Heaven and earth passed away for Israel. Shown at the 6th seal.

24:36, This verse was true when Jesus said it. But after receiving all power in heaven and earth, then He had to know the time, or He didn't receive "all power". He showed us in the Revelation, what His plans are.

I didn't want to "cherry pick".




Heb 12:18-24, We have not come to a material Mount Sion, or a material Jerusalem, as it says here. We have come to a spiritual mountain.

Heb 9:1, The first covenant had material things and ordinances. You want to hang on to these material things, as some do with the Law and Prophets.

Do you think that they will hold services and go through rituals to please Jesus? Maybe after services we'll all go have a chicken dinner pot luck once a month. Maybe it will be just like the Vatican, all fancy and all. Except instead of the Bishop of Rome, we can put Jesus there and go through the rituals there.

Oh wait, He will be in His glory, and we will see His face, is that a problem?
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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Ok, Let's see if Daniel is closed.

Daniel ch 1, Daniel refuses the king's meat.

Ch 2, The statue of the nations.

Ch 3, The fiery furnace.

Ch 4, King Neb.'s dream

Ch 5, The writing on the wall.

Ch 6, The lion's den.

Ch 7, The 4 beasts/nations.

Ch 8, The silver empire Med/Per and the brass empire Greece, Dan. 8:20-21.

Ch 9, The desolation of Jerusalem Dan 9:2

Ch 10, Persia and Greece Dan 10:20

Ch 11, Persia and Greece Dan 11:1-4

Ch 12, The times of 70 ad described.

So, it is only closed to those who choose to keep their eyes closed.

It's probably too hard for you to understand.
I guess you think the Bible lies?!?!

Daniel 12
8 I heard, but I did not understand. So I asked, “My lord, what will the outcome of all this be?”
9 He replied, “Go your way, Daniel, because the words are rolled up and sealed until the time of the end.
 

abcdef

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Mar 30, 2016
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I guess you think the Bible lies?!?!

Daniel 12
8 I heard, but I did not understand. So I asked, “My lord, what will the outcome of all this be?”
9 He replied, “Go your way, Daniel, because the words are rolled up and sealed until the time of the end.

Brother Endo,

Do you teach Daniel in your Bible study, explain what everything means, then turn and say that nobody can understand it?

The time of the end began on Pentecost, and will end when Jesus comes in His glory for us at the resur/rapt. 7th/last trumpet.

What is it in Daniel that you cannot understand? Even pre-trib commentaries have explanations for the entire book.

You say that you know so much and have the answers, but then plead ignorance when confronted with other opinions.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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Ok, Let's see if Daniel is closed.

Daniel ch 1, Daniel refuses the king's meat.

Ch 2, The statue of the nations.

Ch 3, The fiery furnace.

Ch 4, King Neb.'s dream

Ch 5, The writing on the wall.

Ch 6, The lion's den.

Ch 7, The 4 beasts/nations.

Ch 8, The silver empire Med/Per and the brass empire Greece, Dan. 8:20-21.

Ch 9, The desolation of Jerusalem Dan 9:2

Ch 10, Persia and Greece Dan 10:20

Ch 11, Persia and Greece Dan 11:1-4

Ch 12, The times of 70 ad described.

So, it is only closed to those who choose to keep their eyes closed.

It's probably too hard for you to understand.
I guess you think the Bible lies? Jesus said the whole earth would see his return and the rapture would happen with the angels going across the earth to take the Christians to heaven.

Oops, didn't happen!!!

Daniel 12 AMPC
3 And the teachers and those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the firmament, and those who turn many to righteousness (to uprightness and right standing with God) [shall give forth light] like the stars forever and ever.
4 But you, O Daniel, shut up the words and seal the Book until the time of the end. [Then] many shall run to and fro and search anxiously [through the Book], and knowledge [of God’s purposes as revealed by His prophets] shall be increased and become great.


Daniel 12 AMPC
8 And I heard, but I did not understand. Then I said, O my lord, what shall be the issue and final end of these things?
9 And he [the angel] said, Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed till the time of the end.

 
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Yahshua

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Sep 22, 2013
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I guess you think the Bible lies? Jesus said the whole earth would see his return and the rapture would happen with the angels going across the earth to take the Christians to heaven.

Oops, didn't happen!!!

Daniel 12 AMPC
3 And the teachers and those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the firmament, and those who turn many to righteousness (to uprightness and right standing with God) [shall give forth light] like the stars forever and ever.
4 But you, O Daniel, shut up the words and seal the Book until the time of the end. [Then] many shall run to and fro and search anxiously [through the Book], and knowledge [of God’s purposes as revealed by His prophets] shall be increased and become great.


Daniel 12 AMPC
8 And I heard, but I did not understand. Then I said, O my lord, what shall be the issue and final end of these things?
9 And he [the angel] said, Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed till the time of the end.

I agree that the vision given to Daniel must be unsealed first at the time of the end, but what about 1 John 2:18

Little children, it is the last time/hour: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time/hour.

This means Daniel's vision should've been unsealed at the time of John's writing the letter above, right?
 

abcdef

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Mar 30, 2016
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I guess you think the Bible lies? Jesus said the whole earth would see his return and the rapture would happen with the angels going across the earth to take the Christians to heaven.

Oops, didn't happen!!!

Daniel 12 AMPC
3 And the teachers and those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the firmament, and those who turn many to righteousness (to uprightness and right standing with God) [shall give forth light] like the stars forever and ever.
4 But you, O Daniel, shut up the words and seal the Book until the time of the end. [Then] many shall run to and fro and search anxiously [through the Book], and knowledge [of God’s purposes as revealed by His prophets] shall be increased and become great.


Daniel 12 AMPC
8 And I heard, but I did not understand. Then I said, O my lord, what shall be the issue and final end of these things?
9 And he [the angel] said, Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed till the time of the end.

Brother Endo,

We are in the time of the end right now and have been since Pentecost. The book of Daniel is not closed anymore. Your effort to have people believe that it is completely closed until some future time from now is....... becoming laughable. Ask anyone on this website to explain Daniel to you!

Check any commentary! Ha Ha! You claim to know the 4 views, they all have something to say on Daniel, but you say that nobody knows. What does pre-trib say? What does preterism say? What does a-mill say? You claim to know, but know nothing about Daniel?

What part of Daniel is still closed? What part of Daniel don't you understand?
 

abcdef

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Mar 30, 2016
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I guess you think the Bible lies? Jesus said the whole earth would see his return and the rapture would happen with the angels going across the earth to take the Christians to heaven.


Which coming is that? the pre-trib, mid-trib, post trib coming?

When they see Jesus in His glory they will all die since no one can see His face and live Ex 33:20.

So which pre-trib theory coming is it?

Oops, didn't happen!!!
It depends which coming that you are talking about.


Daniel 12 AMPC
3 And the teachers and those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the firmament, and those who turn many to righteousness (to uprightness and right standing with God) [shall give forth light] like the stars forever and ever.

Christians after Pentecost.


4 But you, O Daniel, shut up the words and seal the Book until the time of the end. [Then] many shall run to and fro and search anxiously [through the Book], and knowledge [of God’s purposes as revealed by His prophets] shall be increased and become great.



God's purpose is revealed in Jesus and His resurrection.



Daniel 12 AMPC

8 And I heard, but I did not understand. Then I said, O my lord, what shall be the issue and final end of these things?
9 And he [the angel] said, Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed till the time of the end.



The time of the end started long ago and is almost finished now.


 

abcdef

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Mar 30, 2016
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The one fact central to understanding prophecies is that Rome is the iron of Daniel 2, and the 4th beast of Daniel 7.

See how the Roman iron nation reaches the toes without a gap. So we see that the iron has been here and still exists.

Who was the iron 2000 years ago?

Who was the iron nation, 4th beast 500 years ago?

Who is the dragon beast iron nation, right now?

But if you say yes, that the beast iron dragon nation is Rome, then that can only mean that the iron has been the RCC, and that the Antichrist is the Bishop of Rome (BoR) Vatican.

It is the only explanation that fits the time line profile shown in history.

---

The length of the iron with the legs and toes sets the time line.

The viewpoint of when the end of the toes is, and where we are in in time line at present time, determines your overall time line.

We cannot say that the Roman Empire that existed and ended in 476 ad is still around in it's original form. But an image of the empire is still around. Now reborn out of the abyss in 1929 Vatican (5th trumpet/vial). Caesar worship, man is god, worship the creation.

A close examination of the dragon with 7 heads and 10 horns shows Rome Rev 12. The beast with 7 heads and 10 horns is Rome Rev 17.

This one FACT and consequential FACTS prove that the pre-trib and preterist time lines are both wrong, because they both show major "gap" time periods, unaccounted for, after the 70 ad- present time period approx.

THe Roman Iron legs/toes nation shows NO GAPS, but both pre-trib and preterists insist on placing one there, 1900 years.

The time from the 70 ad destruction, until the restoration of Jerusalem is the times of the gentiles (ToG's) Lk 21:20-24, 24. This would be 70 ad until 1967.

Jesus told Israel that Jerusalem would be destroyed, in prophecy (Ezek 5, Dan 9), and in person.

But he didn't reveal the number of years in the time of men that it would be until Israel was restored to Jerusalem.

Since it is now history, we now know that the ToG's was from 70 ad until 1967, and now it is 70 years from 1967.

--

In 1967, the toes of the statue ended. The power of Rome over Israel ended.

And that is significant, because that means that the stone is about to strike.

The stone striking is the rapt/resur of the 7th/last trumpet when Jesus comes for the kingdom Rev 11. This is shown by the final resurrection of the dead and the judgment that follows. Then the new earth of Rev 21/22.
 

tanakh

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If you travel on London's subway system you will here a warning announced at some stations to'' Mind The Gap'' It refers to a gap between the platform and the carriage doors. Its also good advice for people studying eschatology.

Some see the church as some kind of divine aberration wedged between Christs first coming and his second. The belief is that if only Israel had accepted him as Messiah things would have been fine. He would sit on a wooden throne in the temple' the sacrificial system would continue and all the world would trot off to Jerusalem once a year for Tabernacles. Instead a spanner was thrown into the works of the 'Prophetic Clock' and it wasn't removed until 1948 or 1967. Now we are waiting for Christ to return and then the 'Clocks' hands will be wound right back and the whole sacrificial set up will be put back in place as if Christs first coming and everything he did never happened. Before that the Church has to be taken off the Earth because God cant cope with handling Israel the Church and sinners being on it at the same time.

The truth is that true Israel and the Church are one and the same thing. The church didn't replace Israel. The Church was started by Jews who were also part of believing biblical Israel which grew and continues to grow now. If the Apostles and their Jewish converts were not part of the true Israel who were they part of? According to John Christ came to his own and those who believed in him he gave the power to become Sons of God. Christs kingdom is spiritual not physical. Anyone who believes in him has Christ in him. Christ is already sitting in a Temple. Everyone who believes is a Temple of God. Why wait for a new Temple to be built when each of us are one already? Gods plan for each of us is to be conformed to Christs image. We are not supposed to wait around for the rapture to make it happen we are supposed to be pressing towards it now.
 

PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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C
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the Prophets
at many times and in various ways. But in these last days he
has spoken to us by his Son

Hebrews 1:1-2 NIV

Its clear from this passage that the last days started at the first coming
not in 1948 1967 or any other time. We know this because Hebrews
was inspired by the Holy Spirit.

My little Children this is the last hour and as you heard
that the antichrist is coming even now many antichrists
have come. This is how we know that it is the last hour
They went out from us , but they did not really belong to
us. For if they had belonged to us they would have remained
with us. But their going showed that none of them belonged to
us. But you have an anointing from the Holy One and all of you
know the truth

1 John 2:8-20 NIV

John calls his time the last hour and according to him
antichrists come from within the church. How many
antichrists and false prophets have we in our churches
today that are being listened to?
Correct, the time of Christ was the last days and the fullness of times. It was called this because all of the things foretold by the OT prophets were about to come to pass. The times of refreshing, the restoration of all things, all of this was to come to pass with Christ. Unfortunately there are some who think these last days go on for thousands of years. They don't realize that it was an age coming to an end, the Mosaic Age, and not the planet or world.
 

shrume

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Jun 26, 2017
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Correct, the time of Christ was the last days and the fullness of times. It was called this because all of the things foretold by the OT prophets were about to come to pass. The times of refreshing, the restoration of all things, all of this was to come to pass with Christ. Unfortunately there are some who think these last days go on for thousands of years. They don't realize that it was an age coming to an end, the Mosaic Age, and not the planet or world.
What, exactly, has been refreshed? What, exactly, has been restored? This world is in terrible shape, and is getting worse.

And once they start, the times of refreshing and restoration will not go on forever. Christ's millennial kingdom on this earth will be a wonderful place to be.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
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If you travel on London's subway system you will here a warning announced at some stations to'' Mind The Gap'' It refers to a gap between the platform and the carriage doors. Its also good advice for people studying eschatology.

Some see the church as some kind of divine aberration wedged between Christs first coming and his second. The belief is that if only Israel had accepted him as Messiah things would have been fine. He would sit on a wooden throne in the temple' the sacrificial system would continue and all the world would trot off to Jerusalem once a year for Tabernacles. Instead a spanner was thrown into the works of the 'Prophetic Clock' and it wasn't removed until 1948 or 1967. Now we are waiting for Christ to return and then the 'Clocks' hands will be wound right back and the whole sacrificial set up will be put back in place as if Christs first coming and everything he did never happened. Before that the Church has to be taken off the Earth because God cant cope with handling Israel the Church and sinners being on it at the same time.

The truth is that true Israel and the Church are one and the same thing. The church didn't replace Israel. The Church was started by Jews who were also part of believing biblical Israel which grew and continues to grow now. If the Apostles and their Jewish converts were not part of the true Israel who were they part of? According to John Christ came to his own and those who believed in him he gave the power to become Sons of God. Christs kingdom is spiritual not physical. Anyone who believes in him has Christ in him. Christ is already sitting in a Temple. Everyone who believes is a Temple of God. Why wait for a new Temple to be built when each of us are one already? Gods plan for each of us is to be conformed to Christs image. We are not supposed to wait around for the rapture to make it happen we are supposed to be pressing towards it now.
Agree with most of this, except the "second coming" and "church being taken off the planet" part. The second coming happened in 70 AD. There is nothing in scripture that speaks to Israel reforming in 1967/1948. It happened, but it was not foretold in the Bible. As for the church, it was divinely told to flee Jerusalem in 66 AD and they did to Pella. This is a well taught tradition in the early church.

Christ's presence returned in 70 AD to destroy the wicked Israel, the unbelieving and faithless Israel. This presence return of Christ is the same as when God's presence would come in the OT to punish wicked nations like Egypt, Edom, Babylon and Israel in the 6th century BC. It was a very important and pivotal time for our faith as the resurrection took place and the kingdom was fully established. Hades was no longer a stopping place for those who died in faith. Sad that too few people realize what a watershed moment that was.

Correct, the church was started by the Jews and salvation came first to them. We Gentiles who believe are then grafted in. Today, the true Israel remains the church. The country in the eastern Med is NOT the true Israel. I love them and support them and I'm sure God has a plan for them but it isn't to rebuild any earthly temple and renew animal sacrifices.