The Rapture
- Thread starter 2nicee
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
I figured that the only way you could find fulfillment in the above was to allegorize those events. But the scriptures below are very clear in their meaning:
"Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."
"Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him—even those who pierced Him. And all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of Him. So shall it be! Amen!"
The scripture above is of course speaking about the Lord's literal, physical, return to the earth to end the age. At that time, He will send out His angels throughout the entire earth and they will gather the woman/Israel who will have been cared for out in the desert for that last 3 1/2, as well as all of the great tribulation saints who will have made it through the time of God's wrath and the beasts reign alive. Notice also that it is not only Israel who will see the Lord's return, but all the peoples of the earth will see him arriving on the clouds of heaven. If you will stop spiritualizing these events you will understand them.
There are many more events of prophecy to list and none of them have yet taken place. These events of prophecy are going to take place literally. They are not allegories! All of the events of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which are the wrath of God, must literally take place before the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and those certainly have not yet been fulfilled.
All that you are doing is spiritualizing the coming wrath of God and the Lord's literal, physical return to this earth. I continue to proclaim it, you and others have no idea of the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath. You have watered it down, diluting it. Once the church has been removed, then you will see that antichrist establish his seven year agreement with Israel and the literal fulfillment of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments taking place one by one. Then after that 7th bowl has been poured out, the Lord will return to the earth to end the age.
"For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. “Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short."
The destruction of the temple in 70 AD hardly fits the description above and that tribulation will involve the entire world.
Last edited:
I was once addicted to COPELAND's hype just like YOU. BUT I had the my eyes opened by the Holy Spirit, and saw him for what he really was.
Matthew 7:15-23 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravaging wolves.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] You’ll recognize them by their fruit. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
[SUP]17 [/SUP] In the same way, every good tree produces good fruit, but a bad tree produces bad fruit.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] A good tree can’t produce bad fruit; neither can a bad tree produce good fruit.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Every tree that doesn’t produce good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] So you’ll recognize them by their fruit.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ⌊only⌋ the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’
FRUIT IS ONE'S ONGOING LIFESTYLE CHARACTERISTIC, not a one time stumbling and falling into sin, like David did.
COPELAND'S FRUIT IS ROTTEN TO THE CORE. How can you turn a blind eye to that kind of ongoing GREED.
Colossians 3:5-6 (NIV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Because of these, the wrath of God is coming.
Most involved in the Charismatic Movement want to trust their EYES, more than what the word of GOD actually say.
2 Corinthians 5:7 (NIV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] We live by faith, not by sight.
AND IT IS GETTING WORSE AND WORSE:
[video=youtube;WfXmDkQiE2o]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfXmDkQiE2o[/video]
How is all this connected to the Truth about the Rapture we are discussing:
2 Thessalonians 2:1-5 (NKJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,
[SUP]2 [/SUP] not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?
Your illustration means nothing! If the event of the Lord returning to the earth to end the age had already taken place, the world would have seen it and the millennial period would already be completed and we would be living in the eternals state.
By the way, did you see the definition of the word parousia? It says "physical aspect - Coming, presence. It also says "specifically of Christ to punish Jerusalem, or finally the wicked." Both are correct! And if you read the rest of the prophesies, you would see that God's wrath involves the inhabitants of the entire earth, which is represented in Dan.2 via Nebuchadnezzar's statue, which represents all human government and that coming ten-toed kingdom. The Rock/Jesus falls on the feet of the statue smashing it to pieces like chaff on a threshing floor with the wind blowing it away without leaving a trace (end of human government). The Rock that falls on the feet of the statue becomes a huge mountain and fills the entire earth, which is symbolic for Christ's thousand year reign.
By the way, did you see the definition of the word parousia? It says "physical aspect - Coming, presence. It also says "specifically of Christ to punish Jerusalem, or finally the wicked." Both are correct! And if you read the rest of the prophesies, you would see that God's wrath involves the inhabitants of the entire earth, which is represented in Dan.2 via Nebuchadnezzar's statue, which represents all human government and that coming ten-toed kingdom. The Rock/Jesus falls on the feet of the statue smashing it to pieces like chaff on a threshing floor with the wind blowing it away without leaving a trace (end of human government). The Rock that falls on the feet of the statue becomes a huge mountain and fills the entire earth, which is symbolic for Christ's thousand year reign.
Are you telling us that you do not believe that JESUS is the incarnation of YAHWEH?
Isaiah 43:10-11 (HCSB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] “You are My witnesses”— ⌊this is⌋ the LORD’s declaration— “and My servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He. No god was formed before Me, and there will be none after Me.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] I, I am Yahweh, and there is no other Savior but Me.
Luke 2:11 (HCSB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Today a Savior, who is Messiah the Lord, was born for you in the city of David.
Philippians 2:5-8 (HCSB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Make your own attitude that of Christ Jesus,
[SUP]6 [/SUP] who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God as something to be used for His own advantage.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Instead He emptied Himself by assuming the form of a slave, taking on the likeness of men. And when He had come as a man in His external form,
[SUP]8 [/SUP] He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death— even to death on a cross.
Isaiah 9:6 (HCSB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] For a child will be born for us, a son will be given to us, and the government will be on His shoulders. He will be named Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
John 14:9 (HCSB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Jesus said to him, “Have I been among you all this time without your knowing Me, Philip? The one who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
John 10:30 (HCSB)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] The Father and I are one.”
Isaiah 43:10-11 (HCSB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] “You are My witnesses”— ⌊this is⌋ the LORD’s declaration— “and My servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He. No god was formed before Me, and there will be none after Me.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] I, I am Yahweh, and there is no other Savior but Me.
Luke 2:11 (HCSB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Today a Savior, who is Messiah the Lord, was born for you in the city of David.
Philippians 2:5-8 (HCSB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Make your own attitude that of Christ Jesus,
[SUP]6 [/SUP] who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God as something to be used for His own advantage.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Instead He emptied Himself by assuming the form of a slave, taking on the likeness of men. And when He had come as a man in His external form,
[SUP]8 [/SUP] He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death— even to death on a cross.
Isaiah 9:6 (HCSB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] For a child will be born for us, a son will be given to us, and the government will be on His shoulders. He will be named Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
John 14:9 (HCSB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Jesus said to him, “Have I been among you all this time without your knowing Me, Philip? The one who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
John 10:30 (HCSB)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] The Father and I are one.”
My illustration means everything!! The Presence of Christ indeed returned to punish Jerusalem in 70 AD just as the text says. The Mosaic Age ended meaning the END of the JEWISH NATION, and the end of the LAW. It was an unbelievable event of huge importance to not only the Jews but the whole world because it ushered in the Church Age or Messianic Age or as you like to call it without knowing it, the "Millennium."
Christ is reigning over heaven and earth RIGHT NOW. What started with 12 Jews in Israel in 30 AD has spread throughout the planet and become the largest religion on earth with 1/3 of all people proclaiming their belief in Christ.
As I've been saying over and over, Christ returned in 70 AD. He judged and punished Israel. This took us through Mat 24:34. Everything prior to this verse was accomplished in the first century and I can document each event. Then we come to verse 35:
[SUP]35 [/SUP]Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
The very next words out of our Savior's mouth is this:
[SUP]36 [/SUP]“But of that day and hour no one knows...
What day? The day the heaven and earth will pass away!! It is then (our future) when all the wicked of the planet are judged and the new heavens and earth appear and we enter the eternal state. It will be like the "days of Noah" or Lot. The earth will be full of wickedness, like it is now. But, it will get much worse before the end finally comes.
Christ is reigning over heaven and earth RIGHT NOW. What started with 12 Jews in Israel in 30 AD has spread throughout the planet and become the largest religion on earth with 1/3 of all people proclaiming their belief in Christ.
As I've been saying over and over, Christ returned in 70 AD. He judged and punished Israel. This took us through Mat 24:34. Everything prior to this verse was accomplished in the first century and I can document each event. Then we come to verse 35:
[SUP]35 [/SUP]Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
The very next words out of our Savior's mouth is this:
[SUP]36 [/SUP]“But of that day and hour no one knows...
What day? The day the heaven and earth will pass away!! It is then (our future) when all the wicked of the planet are judged and the new heavens and earth appear and we enter the eternal state. It will be like the "days of Noah" or Lot. The earth will be full of wickedness, like it is now. But, it will get much worse before the end finally comes.
Do you mean LXX? L=50, X=10 totaling 70. You are really showing your ignorance my friend.
"The Septuagint (from the Latin septuaginta, meaning "seventy," and frequently referred to by the roman numerals LXX) is the Greek translation of the Old Testament. The name derives from the tradition that it was made by seventy (or seventy-two) Jewish scholars at Alexandria, Egypt during the reign of Ptolemy Philadelphus (285-247 B.C.).
I cited Matthew from the KJV. The Septuagint LXX didn't translate the NT as it wasn't even written back then!!
"The Septuagint (from the Latin septuaginta, meaning "seventy," and frequently referred to by the roman numerals LXX) is the Greek translation of the Old Testament. The name derives from the tradition that it was made by seventy (or seventy-two) Jewish scholars at Alexandria, Egypt during the reign of Ptolemy Philadelphus (285-247 B.C.).
I cited Matthew from the KJV. The Septuagint LXX didn't translate the NT as it wasn't even written back then!!
Last edited:
It's the "So also, when you see all these things" that you are missing and has yet to take place, which is what identifies "this generation," i.e. the generation where those signs begin to take place. None of the events that you have contained above in Circa 70 AD have yet taken place. In order to support your position you have to spiritualize those events. Jesus has not yet appeared to either gather the church nor to end the age. The gathering of the church is next, which will be followed by the revealing of that antichrist and the wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. I hope that when you see those events literally taking place, that you will recognize them and change your position.
As I said, your illustration means nothing and that because you have no fulfillment of those events listed. Jesus is coming back physically and visually just as the scripture states. For every eye will see him and the peoples of the earth will see him arriving on the clouds of the sky. You zero fulfillment and are your teachings are false.
WRONG. ALL OF THEM HAPPENED!! I'll list them one-by-one.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many.
Josephus "War of the Jews" Book 6, Chapter 5, 2-3.
Now there was then a great number of false prophets suborned by the tyrants to impose on the people, who denounced this to them, that they should wait for deliverance from God; and this was in order to keep them from deserting, and that they might be buoyed up above fear and care by such hopes. Now a man that is in adversity does easily comply with such promises; for when such a seducer makes him believe that he shall be delivered from those miseries which oppress him, then it is that the patient is full of hopes of such his deliverance. 3. Thus were the miserable people persuaded by these deceivers, and such as belied God himself; while they did not attend nor give credit to the signs that were so evident, and did so plainly foretell their future desolation, but, like men infatuated, without either eyes to see or minds to consider, did not regard the denunciations that God made to them.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many.
Josephus "War of the Jews" Book 6, Chapter 5, 2-3.
Now there was then a great number of false prophets suborned by the tyrants to impose on the people, who denounced this to them, that they should wait for deliverance from God; and this was in order to keep them from deserting, and that they might be buoyed up above fear and care by such hopes. Now a man that is in adversity does easily comply with such promises; for when such a seducer makes him believe that he shall be delivered from those miseries which oppress him, then it is that the patient is full of hopes of such his deliverance. 3. Thus were the miserable people persuaded by these deceivers, and such as belied God himself; while they did not attend nor give credit to the signs that were so evident, and did so plainly foretell their future desolation, but, like men infatuated, without either eyes to see or minds to consider, did not regard the denunciations that God made to them.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all[SUP][/SUP] these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
"War of the Jews", Book 3. I just list the chapter titles, you'll get the point (well, maybe not you, but others will):
Chapter 1: VESPASIAN IS SENT INTO SYRIA BY NERO IN ORDER TO MAKE WAR WITH THE JEWS
Chapter 2: A GREAT SLAUGHTER ABOUT ASCALON. VESPASIAN COMES TO PTOLEMAIS
Chapter 4: JOSEPHUS MAKES AN ATTEMPT UPON SEPPHORIS BUT IS REPELLED. TITUS COMES WITH A GREAT ARMY TO PTOLEMAIS
Chapter 6: PLACIDUS ATTEMPTS TO TAKE JOTAPATA AND IS BEATEN OFF. VESPASIAN MARCHES INTO GALILEE
Chapter 7: VESPASIAN, WHEN HE HAD TAKEN THE CITY GADAEA MARCHES TO JOTAPATA. AFTER A LONG SIEGE THE CITY IS BETRAYED BY A DESERTER, AND TAKEN BY VESPASIAN
Chapter 9: HOW JOPPA WAS TAKEN, AND TIBERIAS DELIVERED UP
Chapter 10: HOW TARICHEAE WAS TAKEN. A DESCRIPTION OF THE RIVER JORDAN, AND OF THE COUNTRY OF GENNESARETH
Book 4:
Chapter 1: THE SIEGE AND TAKING OF GAMALA
Chapter 2: THE SURRENDER OF GISCHALA; WHILE JOHN FLIES AWAY FROM IT TO JERUSALEM
From the prospective of Jerusalem, these were wars and rumors of wars all around them.
"War of the Jews", Book 3. I just list the chapter titles, you'll get the point (well, maybe not you, but others will):
Chapter 1: VESPASIAN IS SENT INTO SYRIA BY NERO IN ORDER TO MAKE WAR WITH THE JEWS
Chapter 2: A GREAT SLAUGHTER ABOUT ASCALON. VESPASIAN COMES TO PTOLEMAIS
Chapter 4: JOSEPHUS MAKES AN ATTEMPT UPON SEPPHORIS BUT IS REPELLED. TITUS COMES WITH A GREAT ARMY TO PTOLEMAIS
Chapter 6: PLACIDUS ATTEMPTS TO TAKE JOTAPATA AND IS BEATEN OFF. VESPASIAN MARCHES INTO GALILEE
Chapter 7: VESPASIAN, WHEN HE HAD TAKEN THE CITY GADAEA MARCHES TO JOTAPATA. AFTER A LONG SIEGE THE CITY IS BETRAYED BY A DESERTER, AND TAKEN BY VESPASIAN
Chapter 9: HOW JOPPA WAS TAKEN, AND TIBERIAS DELIVERED UP
Chapter 10: HOW TARICHEAE WAS TAKEN. A DESCRIPTION OF THE RIVER JORDAN, AND OF THE COUNTRY OF GENNESARETH
Book 4:
Chapter 1: THE SIEGE AND TAKING OF GAMALA
Chapter 2: THE SURRENDER OF GISCHALA; WHILE JOHN FLIES AWAY FROM IT TO JERUSALEM
From the prospective of Jerusalem, these were wars and rumors of wars all around them.
And there will be famines, pestilences...
With famines comes pestilences. We can use the Bible to prove this one as this happened before 70 AD.
Acts 11:28: Then one of them, named Agabus, stood up and showed by the Spirit that there was going to be a great famine throughout all the world, which also happened in the days of Claudius Caesar.
FYI: Claudius Caesar was emperor from 41 to 54 AD. Look it up!!
With famines comes pestilences. We can use the Bible to prove this one as this happened before 70 AD.
Acts 11:28: Then one of them, named Agabus, stood up and showed by the Spirit that there was going to be a great famine throughout all the world, which also happened in the days of Claudius Caesar.
FYI: Claudius Caesar was emperor from 41 to 54 AD. Look it up!!
Last edited:
.and earthquakes in various places. [SUP]8 [/SUP]All these are the beginning of sorrows.
All of the below happened from the time Christ said it to 70 AD. This shows how unstable the earth was in those days.
Matthew 27:54
So when the centurion and those with him, who were guarding Jesus, saw the earthquake and the things that had happened, they feared greatly, saying, “Truly this was the Son of God!”
Matthew 28:2
And behold, there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat on it.
Acts 16:26
Suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken; and immediately all the doors were opened and everyone’s chains were loosed.
Revelation 6:12
I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.
War, 6-5: Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the temple,] as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking...
All of the below happened from the time Christ said it to 70 AD. This shows how unstable the earth was in those days.
Matthew 27:54
So when the centurion and those with him, who were guarding Jesus, saw the earthquake and the things that had happened, they feared greatly, saying, “Truly this was the Son of God!”
Matthew 28:2
And behold, there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat on it.
Acts 16:26
Suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken; and immediately all the doors were opened and everyone’s chains were loosed.
Revelation 6:12
I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.
War, 6-5: Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the temple,] as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking...