The Rapture

Lucy-Pevensie · Feb 27, 2018

just checking to make sure you are all still here

SpoonJuly · Feb 27, 2018

Wow! This thread has been taken over by the preterist and Ahwatukee. Everyone spouting their errors at each other, and nobody coming close to what Jesus will do. Here are the actual events:

You claim Jesus is coming for a secret rapture, and He will be coming into only the air. I see we are still disagreeing. If Jesus comes into the atmosphere, that is still "a coming." There is no secret rapture there are saints dying all during the tribulation.

When Christ comes back the very next time, He will encircle the earth while the asleep in Christ will rise and join Him. Then those that are alive will be changed into incorruptible spirits to join him. Jesus said that no man has ascended to heaven. John 3:13: “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”

Don't give me a reference to the transfiguration when Jesus appeared with Moses and Elijah. Matt. 17:9: “And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.”

This is an example of a vision. But a vision is just a vision, we should not draw doctrine from them. A vision is an exception to what is literal. All the patriarchs in Hebrews 11 are still waiting to get to heaven. I remind you this was written after the cross. No, Hebrews 12 doesn't prove anyone in heaven. It is just a reference to Zion.

Everyone says that we will have glorified bodies, after our resurrection. I don't agree, we will be spirit. John said: John 4:24: “God is spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and truth.” and in 1 John 3:2: "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is." Sounds like we will be spirits too.

Luke 21:25-27: “And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. The sea and the waves roaring; and then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.”

When Jesus comes back, His countenance will be like the sunrise: glorious!

I agree with everything you said except about having glorified bodies.

Angela53510 · Feb 27, 2018

I was just checking, too! I've left so many fruitless discussions, I thought I might find rational discussion here!

My bad! LOL

Deade · Feb 27, 2018

SpoonJuly said:

You think we will have glorified bodies?

SpoonJuly · Feb 27, 2018

Angela53510 said:

There is no such thing as a rational discussion on this thread.

Deade · Feb 27, 2018

Angela53510 said:

C'mon Angela, be nice will you.

SpoonJuly · Feb 27, 2018

Deade said:

Yes. Now don't ask me what they will be like.
We will rule with Jesus for 1000 years on the earth. Now after that, ?????

Magenta · Feb 27, 2018

Lucy-Pevensie said:

I have heard people at meetings say, "We are all here because we are not all there."

abcdef · Feb 27, 2018

I believe that the best example of the rapt/resur is the 2 witnesses. Rev 11:1-13, 11-12.

They are killed, then after 3 1/2 days they stand on their feet, and are called up to heaven in view of their enemies.

See how after the story of the 2W's end, the 7th trumpet blows, followed by the judgment of the dead and saints. Rev 11:18.

For those who do not believe in the "being caught up to meet Jesus in the air rapture" part of the resurrection, this would seem to show otherwise.

(There are only 2 resurrections, this would be showing the 2nd resurrection where Jesus comes for the kingdom, after that it is the end. 1 Cor 15:23-28, 23-24.)

PlainWord · Feb 28, 2018

Deade said:

Now you have added your errors my good fellow. They were in the "last days" and the "end of the age" not us. The end of their 2,000 year-old nation was in it's final 40 years. Everything Jesus was speaking about was to come upon their generation, that faithless and perverse generation that He so often rebuked. The Olivet was all about what was to come to their generation and indeed ALL OF IT DID!!!

The other big thing people do not understand is the nature of Christ's return. It was His presence which came back. He did not come back as a human. He did not touch down and He did not stay to reign in some earthly temple, nor will He ever!! The original question in the actual text was this.

You see they were asking when His presence (parousia) would return to punish Jerusalem at the termination of (their) age, not our age. If you look at the definition of parousia, you will see that is exactly what was meant. Christ returned exact as He went into heaven - a bright spiritual light, not as He left earth!! Everyone saw this bright light and Josephus records it. It lit up the night sky for about 1/2 hour. God's presence returned several times in the OT at several different "Days of the Lord" to punish several nations including Edom, Egypt and Israel at their first desolation and exile to Babylon. The next "Day of the Lord" was the second desolation of Israel at the hands of the Romans in 70 AD. There is no future "Day of the Lord" in prophesy pertaining to us. Now sure, He may come back again and punish the whole planet but there is no specific passage concerning this.

The "great tribulation" that everyone fears is over. It took place in Judea as the text clearly states. There is no boggy man or antichrist coming with any mark. The "beast" mentioned in Rev 13 was Nero. He's been dead a long time.

The so called Rapture took place in the Aer which is not to be confused with the Air as in atmosphere. It is the same AER that Satan was said to be the Prince of. This was a spiritual coming which is the realm in which the resurrection took place back in 70 AD. Dan 12 makes clear that the resurrection was associated with the time of trouble and that trouble was 70 AD Israel. It was back then that those who slept in the dust of the earth arose. It wasn't the dust itself that rose.

The old age that ended in 70 AD ended the old way of death whereby everyone who dies went to Hades to wait for Christ. At Christ first appearance, after the Cross, He ministered to those in Hades. At His parousia in 70 AD, He freed the captives and took them to heaven. Those alive who were Christians had their souls immediately transformed "at the blink of an eye" and no longer will go to Hades upon death, instead they go straight to heaven. This is the way it has been for nearly 2,000 years now.

Will there be an end to our age soon? I actually think yes, but there is no Biblical mention of it that I can find. It seems like these ages run about 2,000 years.

PlainWord · Feb 28, 2018

Angela53510 said:

Boy, Tim LaHaye sure messed up everyone's minds with his utter nonsense, didn't he? The man didn't have an ounce of spiritual insight but convinced millions and made millions in the process.

tourist · Feb 28, 2018

Lucy-Pevensie said:

It seems like some of us are missing. We must have been left behind.

Roadkill · Feb 28, 2018

PlainWord said:

Now you have added your errors my good fellow. They were in the "last days" and the "end of the age" not us. The end of their 2,000 year-old nation was in it's final 40 years. Everything Jesus was speaking about was to come upon their generation, that faithless and perverse generation that He so often rebuked. The Olivet was all about what was to come to their generation and indeed ALL OF IT DID!!!

The other big thing people do not understand is the nature of Christ's return. It was His presence which came back. He did not come back as a human. He did not touch down and He did not stay to reign in some earthly temple, nor will He ever!! The original question in the actual text was this.

View attachment 179106

You see they were asking when His presence (parousia) would return to punish Jerusalem at the termination of (their) age, not our age. If you look at the definition of parousia, you will see that is exactly what was meant. Christ returned exact as He went into heaven - a bright spiritual light, not as He left earth!! Everyone saw this bright light and Josephus records it. It lit up the night sky for about 1/2 hour. God's presence returned several times in the OT at several different "Days of the Lord" to punish several nations including Edom, Egypt and Israel at their first desolation and exile to Babylon. The next "Day of the Lord" was the second desolation of Israel at the hands of the Romans in 70 AD. There is no future "Day of the Lord" in prophesy pertaining to us. Now sure, He may come back again and punish the whole planet but there is no specific passage concerning this.

The "great tribulation" that everyone fears is over. It took place in Judea as the text clearly states. There is no boggy man or antichrist coming with any mark. The "beast" mentioned in Rev 13 was Nero. He's been dead a long time.

The so called Rapture took place in the Aer which is not to be confused with the Air as in atmosphere. It is the same AER that Satan was said to be the Prince of. This was a spiritual coming which is the realm in which the resurrection took place back in 70 AD. Dan 12 makes clear that the resurrection was associated with the time of trouble and that trouble was 70 AD Israel. It was back then that those who slept in the dust of the earth arose. It wasn't the dust itself that rose.

The old age that ended in 70 AD ended the old way of death whereby everyone who dies went to Hades to wait for Christ. At Christ first appearance, after the Cross, He ministered to those in Hades. At His parousia in 70 AD, He freed the captives and took them to heaven. Those alive who were Christians had their souls immediately transformed "at the blink of an eye" and no longer will go to Hades upon death, instead they go straight to heaven. This is the way it has been for nearly 2,000 years now.

Will there be an end to our age soon? I actually think yes, but there is no Biblical mention of it that I can find. It seems like these ages run about 2,000 years.

This is TOTAL BS! You need to quit twisting God's word. 70AD destruction of Jerusalem was a Judgement on the Jews but not the Times of Tribulation that Daniel wrote of. This period will be so bad that nothing in man's history will be able to compare to it. Many things have happened that are worse than the siege of Jerusalem in 70AD.

Roadkill · Feb 28, 2018

Deade said:

Jesus's body was handled by the Disciples. Can't do that with a spirit. If you do not believe that Jesus arose in the flesh then you are NOT a Christian and have no part with us. As he has risen in the flesh so will we. That is our hope in Christ.

Roadkill · Feb 28, 2018

Deade said:

Yes! It will be like comparing an Acorn with an Oak Tree what our bodies are now and what they will be after.

Roadkill · Feb 28, 2018

Deade said:

Wow! This thread has been taken over by the preterist and Ahwatukee. Everyone spouting their errors at each other, and nobody coming close to what Jesus will do. Here are the actual events:

You claim Jesus is coming for a secret rapture, and He will be coming into only the air. I see we are still disagreeing. If Jesus comes into the atmosphere, that is still "a coming." There is no secret rapture there are saints dying all during the tribulation.

When Christ comes back the very next time, He will encircle the earth while the asleep in Christ will rise and join Him. Then those that are alive will be changed into incorruptible spirits to join him. Jesus said that no man has ascended to heaven. John 3:13: “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”

Don't give me a reference to the transfiguration when Jesus appeared with Moses and Elijah. Matt. 17:9: “And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.”

This is an example of a vision. But a vision is just a vision, we should not draw doctrine from them. A vision is an exception to what is literal. All the patriarchs in Hebrews 11 are still waiting to get to heaven. I remind you this was written after the cross. No, Hebrews 12 doesn't prove anyone in heaven. It is just a reference to Zion.

Everyone says that we will have glorified bodies, after our resurrection. I don't agree, we will be spirit. John said: John 4:24: “God is spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and truth.” and in 1 John 3:2: "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is." Sounds like we will be spirits too.

Luke 21:25-27: “And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. The sea and the waves roaring; and then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.”

When Jesus comes back, His countenance will be like the sunrise: glorious!

The Rapture is the end of the Age of Grace and the Church here on Earth. The event is a Church Mystery of the end times. We will be Raptured in that we are called to Jesus and Jesus at that time does not Set Up his kingdom here on Earth as of then. We are removed from Earth before the Last 3 and a half years of the Tribulation Period when God pours his wrath upon Earth. There will be people who become converts after this Rapture event but they will have to undergo the 3 and a half years of Tribulation before Jesus' Return upon the Mount of Olives. Hence the wearing out of the saints by the Anti-Christ during this period.

Roadkill · Feb 28, 2018

tanakh said:

This is nonsense. Christs use of the term Generation is always recognized as the that one he is speaking to in every other instance except this one. Your interpretation is as bad as those who insist he meant the Jewish race and you have the nerve to say my interpretation is terrible. Why would he tell the disciples to flee Jerusalem if he meant some other generation?
Why did he tell the Pharisees that the blood shed from Abel to Zechariah would be avenged on them? How was Caiaphas supposed to see him coming in clouds (a symbol of divine judgement) Has he been hanging around for the last 2000 years
Why did he tell the women not to weep for him but themselves? He also predicted that the Temple would be destroyed which prompted the whole conversation. Finally he warned throughout his ministry that the nation would be destroyed by way of parables such as the wicked tenants do you really think he was talking about something that wouldnt happen for another 2000 years? When Pilate passed sentence the crowd called out his blood be on us and our children, In the Jewish war it is estimated that one million Jews were slaughtered and the whole of the Old Covenant sacrificial system came to an end

Like so many prophecies in the Old Testament, Jesus was giving a two-fold prophecy of the Siege of Jerusalem. They overlapped in that they were similar but they happen at two different seasons of the year. The one in 70AD happened in Summer, the Future Siege will happen in WINTER....

Nehemiah6 · Feb 28, 2018

Roadkill said:

I would agree with you other than the fact that the Rapture will occur BEFORE the beginning of Daniel's 70th week. The last 3 1/2 years are the Great Tribulation, but the first 3 1/2 years are given over to Satan and the Antichrist totally. That cannot be possible unless the Holy Spirit -- the Divine Restrainer -- is "taken out of the way" (removed from the earth). Since the Holy Spirit indwells the saints, the Church must also be taken out of the way simultaneously.

Endoscopy · Feb 28, 2018

tanakh said:

Daniel and Revelation go hand in hand. Daniel states it is closed to understanding until end times. We understand the statue by looking at history since it was written. For almost 60 years I have been watching actions around Israel unfold and see things progressing there to make it ready for the prophecies to be fulfilled that I understand. I see countries aligning with others going to that end. But it is still things that need to happen. The temple for one. There is talk that in secret plans are being made to build a new one where the old one was. In the north end of the old City of David just south of the temple mount. The wailing wall is really what is left of a Roman fort.

Endoscopy · Feb 28, 2018

PlainWord said:

Now you have added your errors my good fellow. They were in the "last days" and the "end of the age" not us. The end of their 2,000 year-old nation was in it's final 40 years. Everything Jesus was speaking about was to come upon their generation, that faithless and perverse generation that He so often rebuked. The Olivet was all about what was to come to their generation and indeed ALL OF IT DID!!!

The other big thing people do not understand is the nature of Christ's return. It was His presence which came back. He did not come back as a human. He did not touch down and He did not stay to reign in some earthly temple, nor will He ever!! The original question in the actual text was this.

View attachment 179106

You see they were asking when His presence (parousia) would return to punish Jerusalem at the termination of (their) age, not our age. If you look at the definition of parousia, you will see that is exactly what was meant. Christ returned exact as He went into heaven - a bright spiritual light, not as He left earth!! Everyone saw this bright light and Josephus records it. It lit up the night sky for about 1/2 hour. God's presence returned several times in the OT at several different "Days of the Lord" to punish several nations including Edom, Egypt and Israel at their first desolation and exile to Babylon. The next "Day of the Lord" was the second desolation of Israel at the hands of the Romans in 70 AD. There is no future "Day of the Lord" in prophesy pertaining to us. Now sure, He may come back again and punish the whole planet but there is no specific passage concerning this.

The "great tribulation" that everyone fears is over. It took place in Judea as the text clearly states. There is no boggy man or antichrist coming with any mark. The "beast" mentioned in Rev 13 was Nero. He's been dead a long time.

The so called Rapture took place in the Aer which is not to be confused with the Air as in atmosphere. It is the same AER that Satan was said to be the Prince of. This was a spiritual coming which is the realm in which the resurrection took place back in 70 AD. Dan 12 makes clear that the resurrection was associated with the time of trouble and that trouble was 70 AD Israel. It was back then that those who slept in the dust of the earth arose. It wasn't the dust itself that rose.

The old age that ended in 70 AD ended the old way of death whereby everyone who dies went to Hades to wait for Christ. At Christ first appearance, after the Cross, He ministered to those in Hades. At His parousia in 70 AD, He freed the captives and took them to heaven. Those alive who were Christians had their souls immediately transformed "at the blink of an eye" and no longer will go to Hades upon death, instead they go straight to heaven. This is the way it has been for nearly 2,000 years now.

Will there be an end to our age soon? I actually think yes, but there is no Biblical mention of it that I can find. It seems like these ages run about 2,000 years.

I see you adhere to the amil version of eschatology. The problem is there are 3 other biblical views of it that are equally valid Biblically. I adhere to the pan mil. It will all pan out in the end.

Here are a couple of sites detailing each of these Biblical views.

Here are a couple of sites discussing the 4 main eschatologyical views. Notice some have minor variations.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/mill.cfm

Eschatology, end times, & millennialism: Competing theories

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