And yet you didn't provide symbolism. I've noticed this about you in that, all you do is point to someone else's teachings, but you never provide anything of your own. Anyone who thinks that the four different views are all Biblical is unteachable. He has blinders on. That said, it wouldn't matter what scriptural information that I provided to back up my claims, as you would not be able to comprehend it, as you've already demonstrated. You're just like the guys with the four views.
The Rapture
- Thread starter 2nicee
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Morning Lucy,
I would say a definite No! And that because, though the view is from heaven, all of the events that are taking place, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, plagues of the two witnesses and all related information, are literal events that are going to be taking place on the earth. Therefore, if the church was on the earth during that time, the events of God's wrath would still be affecting them. Just because John is in heaven from Rev.4:1 on-ward doesn't change the fact that the events of wrath will be taking place to the earth and its inhabitance. The reason that the church is no longer mentioned after the end of chapter three, is because chapter 4:1 is a prophetic allusion to the church being gathered. The key to understanding the order of Revelation is found in Rev.1:19 where John is told to write:
What you have seen = Everything written from Rev.1:1 to 1:19
What is now = Represented by the letters to the seven churches, which is representing the entire church period
What will take place later = The events which take place after the "what is now," i.e. after the church period
In Rev.4:1 the voice that sounds like a trumpet says "come up here and I will show you what must take place 'after this,' i.e. after the "what is now," after the church period. This why we no longer see the word "church" appear in the narrative. In further support of this, the opening of the first seal is what initiates the day of the Lord, the wrath of God, which again, the church is not appointed to suffer and which Jesus said he would keep us out of (1 Thes.1:10, Rev.3:10). Therefore, the church must be removed prior to that first seal being opened, which again is being represented in Rev.4:1. It is the word "Hagios" translated as "Saints" that we begin to see, which is in reference to those who become believers after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath.
Regarding this, John was previously told to write letters to the seven churches. And then in Rev.7:9-17 he is seeing a vision of a great number of white robed saints which no man can count. The very fact that the elder is asking John who they are demonstrates that this group is not the church. If this group was the church, why would the elder be asking John who those are whom he just wrote to? The fact that John says he doesn't know who they are and the fact that John is told that these are those who will have come out of the great tribulation, tells us that this group is not the church.
In short, though the view changes, the events of wrath will be taking place to and on the earth and its inhabitants.
I would say a definite No! And that because, though the view is from heaven, all of the events that are taking place, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, plagues of the two witnesses and all related information, are literal events that are going to be taking place on the earth. Therefore, if the church was on the earth during that time, the events of God's wrath would still be affecting them. Just because John is in heaven from Rev.4:1 on-ward doesn't change the fact that the events of wrath will be taking place to the earth and its inhabitance. The reason that the church is no longer mentioned after the end of chapter three, is because chapter 4:1 is a prophetic allusion to the church being gathered. The key to understanding the order of Revelation is found in Rev.1:19 where John is told to write:
What you have seen = Everything written from Rev.1:1 to 1:19
What is now = Represented by the letters to the seven churches, which is representing the entire church period
What will take place later = The events which take place after the "what is now," i.e. after the church period
In Rev.4:1 the voice that sounds like a trumpet says "come up here and I will show you what must take place 'after this,' i.e. after the "what is now," after the church period. This why we no longer see the word "church" appear in the narrative. In further support of this, the opening of the first seal is what initiates the day of the Lord, the wrath of God, which again, the church is not appointed to suffer and which Jesus said he would keep us out of (1 Thes.1:10, Rev.3:10). Therefore, the church must be removed prior to that first seal being opened, which again is being represented in Rev.4:1. It is the word "Hagios" translated as "Saints" that we begin to see, which is in reference to those who become believers after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath.
Regarding this, John was previously told to write letters to the seven churches. And then in Rev.7:9-17 he is seeing a vision of a great number of white robed saints which no man can count. The very fact that the elder is asking John who they are demonstrates that this group is not the church. If this group was the church, why would the elder be asking John who those are whom he just wrote to? The fact that John says he doesn't know who they are and the fact that John is told that these are those who will have come out of the great tribulation, tells us that this group is not the church.
In short, though the view changes, the events of wrath will be taking place to and on the earth and its inhabitants.
But we need to get into the details. I don't believe we can go on Revelation alone, or even New Testament passages alone.
Most books of the OT are prophetic and speak of the last days. It's all rich with information.
One of the points that you make is that we (as believers) are not appointed to God's wrath. I agree with that. But that alone doesn't lead me to the conclusion that The Lord MUST rapture his church BEFORE pouring out his wrath. He gets his people out. I know that. We see it in the example of Sodom for one. BUT (I have pointed this out before but no one seems to be interested.) It is also clearly demonstrated in scripture that The Lord CAN pour out judgement on his enemies whilst simultaneously protecting his people. He's God. He's clever like that. Do you get what I'm saying? I posted scripture references in another thread and I can do so again.
So..... us not being appointed to wrath is not enough evidence to convince me unreservedly that there will be a pre-trib rapture.
I would LOVE for there to be a pre-trib rapture. I have always wanted to believe it but I'm not thoroughly convinced it will happen that way. My ears are open though and I don't discourage my brothers & sisters from trying to convince me.
Most books of the OT are prophetic and speak of the last days. It's all rich with information.
One of the points that you make is that we (as believers) are not appointed to God's wrath. I agree with that. But that alone doesn't lead me to the conclusion that The Lord MUST rapture his church BEFORE pouring out his wrath. He gets his people out. I know that. We see it in the example of Sodom for one. BUT (I have pointed this out before but no one seems to be interested.) It is also clearly demonstrated in scripture that The Lord CAN pour out judgement on his enemies whilst simultaneously protecting his people. He's God. He's clever like that. Do you get what I'm saying? I posted scripture references in another thread and I can do so again.
So..... us not being appointed to wrath is not enough evidence to convince me unreservedly that there will be a pre-trib rapture.
I would LOVE for there to be a pre-trib rapture. I have always wanted to believe it but I'm not thoroughly convinced it will happen that way. My ears are open though and I don't discourage my brothers & sisters from trying to convince me.
I will repeat this again. I am 73 years old and since being a teenager have studied eschatology and taken classes as an elder and deacon in 3 seperate churches that included eschatology taught by the pastors. I moved twice. I have read books and pamphlets on the subject. In all cases of the pamphlets and books that claimed to know the meaning of the symbols have been wrong. Specific dates for events they predicted failed to come to pass. One I read as a teenager. The result of all of this study confirmed that the 4 views of eschatology are Biblical. The symbolism in Daniel and Revelation force this conclusion. Theologians for centuries have studied this to create the 4 views. Every time someone says they know what it all means they have been WRONG. What they published failed miserably. Whole congregations gathered together for the rapture on a specific day. You are just one more of these. The congregation failed to understand that Jesus said only the Father knows the time. With this background understand I require scriptural proof of your assertions. To me those claiming to know the end times are just one more of these people who failed. Scriptural proof required to invalidate those 4 views.
Last edited:
I want an apology immediately. How dare you! You don't know me.
I have never even once believed in a date. Or gathered for a rapture event.
I stated as much a couple of days ago that we cannot know a specific date.
What you are saying is that YOU believe 4 particular theories and you judge anyone who does not.
The four theories are not in agreement with one another. How can you claim they are ALL true?
You are peddling confusion.
I have never even once believed in a date. Or gathered for a rapture event.
I stated as much a couple of days ago that we cannot know a specific date.
What you are saying is that YOU believe 4 particular theories and you judge anyone who does not.
The four theories are not in agreement with one another. How can you claim they are ALL true?
You are peddling confusion.
The "rapture" was a spiritual event of the 1st century AD - there was no physical removal of believers from the earth.
John 17:15 "I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one."
The "event" was along the lines of Paul's ascent to the third heaven:
2 Cor 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven.
John 17:15 "I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one."
The "event" was along the lines of Paul's ascent to the third heaven:
2 Cor 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven.
I posted this previously in another "rapture" thread:
The church was not removed from the earth - Christ came to dwell with the church.
1 Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming (Greek– parousia) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1 Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet (Greek- apantesis) the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The Greek parousia and apantesis would have specific meanings to the people of 1st century AD.
Greek definitions (not all)
parousia - presence, of persons; arrival; esp. Visit of a royal or official personage
apantesis - to move from a place to meet a person; then, generally, to meet, encounter
Paul's usage of the words do not suggest a removal of Christians from earth, but rather Christ is visiting them to dwell with them.
Parousia and apantesis when used together are being used in a “technical” sense, the words in the ancient world would be used (and understood) to describe a visit by a king or a royal dignitary when making a visit to a town or a city.
The people being in wait for the dignitary would watch for his coming, they would then go out to “meet” (apantesis) him.They would then escort him back to the city. The city is the destination. He was not coming to remove them from the city.
We can see how “apantesis”, meet is used in the following verses:
Mat 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet (Greek– apantesis) the bridegroom.
Mat 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bride groom cometh; go ye out to meet (Greek- apantesis) him.
Acts 28:15 And from thence, when the brethren heard of us, they came to meet (Greek– apantesis) us as far as Appii forum, and the three taverns: whom when Paul saw, he thanked God, and took courage.
Paul is telling the Thessalonian's they will meet him in the air in a spiritual event – his coming in the clouds – just as Paul was caught up to the third heaven.
The church was not removed from the earth - Christ came to dwell with the church.
1 Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming (Greek– parousia) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1 Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet (Greek- apantesis) the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The Greek parousia and apantesis would have specific meanings to the people of 1st century AD.
Greek definitions (not all)
parousia - presence, of persons; arrival; esp. Visit of a royal or official personage
apantesis - to move from a place to meet a person; then, generally, to meet, encounter
Paul's usage of the words do not suggest a removal of Christians from earth, but rather Christ is visiting them to dwell with them.
Parousia and apantesis when used together are being used in a “technical” sense, the words in the ancient world would be used (and understood) to describe a visit by a king or a royal dignitary when making a visit to a town or a city.
The people being in wait for the dignitary would watch for his coming, they would then go out to “meet” (apantesis) him.They would then escort him back to the city. The city is the destination. He was not coming to remove them from the city.
We can see how “apantesis”, meet is used in the following verses:
Mat 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet (Greek– apantesis) the bridegroom.
Mat 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bride groom cometh; go ye out to meet (Greek- apantesis) him.
Acts 28:15 And from thence, when the brethren heard of us, they came to meet (Greek– apantesis) us as far as Appii forum, and the three taverns: whom when Paul saw, he thanked God, and took courage.
Paul is telling the Thessalonian's they will meet him in the air in a spiritual event – his coming in the clouds – just as Paul was caught up to the third heaven.
H
Once you discover the bride/bridegroom dimension,it will seal the deal.
Heaven awaits that event. Heaven sees endtimes as the harvest of the son's bride,the marrige supper,the gathering of his covenant people the jews,and the eventual throne of David restored.
Ruth is the gentile bride. Boaz is the groom,and Naomi is the tag along Jew.
The scroll in rev 5 is the title deed in Ruth.
Without Ruth,revelation can not be understood.
Purpose.
God is a God of purpose.
The GT is jacobs sorrow ( israels sorrow)
The purpose is to drive them to God.
The main salvation of Jews comes at Rev 19.
They will see the messiah and WILL WORSHIP him.
Rev 14 is the gathering of the remnant Jews to the marriage supper.
(Jesus first miracle is Jesus last miracle)
The first miracle was at a wedding. A Jewish wedding.
They told Jesus "you saved the best for last"
The jews are harvested last. ( the best for last)
IOW,the first miracle HAD TO BE at a jewish wedding.
The last supper is the betrothal. ( The groom promising to wed his bride)
Once you see this. It will blow you away.
Heaven awaits that event. Heaven sees endtimes as the harvest of the son's bride,the marrige supper,the gathering of his covenant people the jews,and the eventual throne of David restored.
Ruth is the gentile bride. Boaz is the groom,and Naomi is the tag along Jew.
The scroll in rev 5 is the title deed in Ruth.
Without Ruth,revelation can not be understood.
Purpose.
God is a God of purpose.
The GT is jacobs sorrow ( israels sorrow)
The purpose is to drive them to God.
The main salvation of Jews comes at Rev 19.
They will see the messiah and WILL WORSHIP him.
Rev 14 is the gathering of the remnant Jews to the marriage supper.
(Jesus first miracle is Jesus last miracle)
The first miracle was at a wedding. A Jewish wedding.
They told Jesus "you saved the best for last"
The jews are harvested last. ( the best for last)
IOW,the first miracle HAD TO BE at a jewish wedding.
The last supper is the betrothal. ( The groom promising to wed his bride)
Once you see this. It will blow you away.