The Rapture

[PlainWord]

It's unfortunate that some people don't understand and downplay the importance of the sack of Jerusalem and destruction of the temple - it was of tremendous spiritual importance.

Right? Literal and spiritual, I'd argue. You think they would realize all the volumes of work dedicated to the events leading up to the first destruction of Jerusalem where they were carried away for 70 years to Babylon, but somehow think virtually nothing would be devoted to the second destruction where they were carried away for nearly 1,900 years whereby they endured two major holocausts. That's the literal piece.

The spiritual piece, they lost their exclusive covenant as God's chosen people and saw it given to the Gentiles. But this is lost on them too.

 

[PlainWord]

Here's a picture of Gethsemane that I took in Sep '15. No wonder Jesus liked it there so much. That tree may have been old enough to have been there at the time.

 

[Locutus]

Right? Literal and spiritual, I'd argue. You think they would realize all the volumes of work dedicated to the events leading up to the first destruction of Jerusalem where they were carried away for 70 years to Babylon, but somehow think virtually nothing would be devoted to the second destruction where they were carried away for nearly 1,900 years whereby they endured two major holocausts. That's the literal piece.

The spiritual piece, they lost their exclusive covenant as God's chosen people and saw it given to the Gentiles. But this is lost on them too.

I don't see it as much as given to the Gentiles (I know Jesus stated such) - the promises were to the remnant of Israel, Paul said they were receiving it i.e salvation and the kingdom.

Gentiles were/are grafted in to the true vine Christ. The reason the "church" is predominantly Gentile is because the remnant after 70 AD were a minority and "losing ground" as the nations received the gospel.

So in a sense the kingdom was given to a "nation bearing fruits" consisting at that time of the remnant and Gentiles

The "chosen status" was lost to the spiritual heirs of Abraham, both Jew (first) and then the Gentiles.

 

[VCO]

This does not say the rest that were sleeping were raised, especially if you take into consideration 15:23.

Revelation 20:4-5 (HCSB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Then I saw thrones, and people seated on them who were given authority to judge. ⌊I⌋ also ⌊saw⌋ the people who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of God’s word, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and who had not accepted the mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with the Messiah for 1,000 years.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

It is not saying the REST OF THE DEAD are part of the fiirst resurrect, it is saying up to the start of the 1000 year Earthly Reign of Jesus all those who were raised are part of the First Resurrection, which is the Resurrection of the Righteous, including the Tribulation Saints. The REST OF THE DEAD are Unbelievers it face their Righteous Judge.

The Resurrection of the Righteous takes place in phases:

Acts 1:6-7 (HCSB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] So when they had come together, they asked Him, “Lord, are You restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?”
[SUP]7 [/SUP] He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or periods that the Father has set by His own authority.

1 Corinthians 15:21-23 (CSBBible)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead also comes through a man.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]

But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruits; afterward, at his coming, those who belong to Christ.

 

[Locutus]

Are you now the spokesperson for 1611...

Yer still not reading it right through those dispensational spectacles..

 

[VCO]

Here's a picture of Gethsemane that I took in Sep '15. No wonder Jesus liked it there so much. That tree may have been old enough to have been there at the time.

View attachment 173148

Before someone makes fun of your estimate, which may be true of that much bigger one towards the back. I did a quick research of the oldest known Olive Tree, and it is estimated to be 3000 years old.

 

[Locutus]

Unfortunately for our third temple idolaters the idea is totally without merit.

We don't see any mention of this by Paul.

That's right the return of the shadow is what these people are promoting.

Paul said that the first "things" were physical - then the spiritual - he never mentioned a return to the shadow away from the light.

1 Cor 15:46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.


Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Israel's physical things were shadows of the spiritual in Christ.

The shadows disappeared in the destruction of the temple in 70AD and the waxing old of the Mosaic covenant.

Israel's physical things (priesthood, temple, sacrifices, feasts and laws) were shadows of the spiritual in Christ.

 

[J7]

@PlainWord & friends

The resurrection is the translation of mortal flesh to eternal flesh. When it happens we will be literally able to walk in the heavens with Jesus.

This event has not happened PW.

 

[KJV1611]

So you are saying PW that the resurrection is already past which is heresy really

18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

It's not passed J7 but it has started.

 

[Locutus]

16 post's, what do you get?

He's another day older and deeper in fret...

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[KJV1611]

That does not compute with what this says:

1 Cor 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

You've got it at his resurrection.

Ok, let'st say you're right... When Jesus returned in AD 70 (LOL) who were the ten thousands of his saints that returned with him?

Jude 1:14 KJV
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

 

[KJV1611]

Nope. For us, pretty instantaneously. But we won't be getting as bright, LOL. Won't take as long to heat us up. I'll probably be just bright enough to light a small box.

So Jesus had to sort of prime the pump lol.... but now that it's primed we can be changed in the twinkling of an eye.

 

[KJV1611]

This does not say the rest that were sleeping were raised, especially if you take into consideration 15:23.

Slept means that the SLEEP is over, they're not asleep any more.

 

[KJV1611]

....and so the historicist hijack continues.

Pure rubbish

I agree, most of it is PURE RUBBISH!

 

[KJV1611]

No, actually it isn't heresy. That passage from 2 Timothy was written before 70 AD. It applied then, it doesn't apply now.

2 Timothy 2:18 KJV
Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

It is heresy because you're doing exaclty the same thing they did only your view more screwed up than theirs lol. They saw the resurrection at Christ's resurrection and ASSUMED it was done - finished - over with. Their error was that they thought the 1st resurrection was a ONE TIME event.

And that's what you're doing also except you're creating an AD 70 resurrection that never happened!

 

[KJV1611]

It's unfortunate that some people don't understand and downplay the importance of the sack of Jerusalem and destruction of the temple - it was of tremendous spiritual importance.

Rubbish, it has absolutely nothing to do with anything.

 

[KJV1611]

Right? Literal and spiritual, I'd argue. You think they would realize all the volumes of work dedicated to the events leading up to the first destruction of Jerusalem where they were carried away for 70 years to Babylon, but somehow think virtually nothing would be devoted to the second destruction where they were carried away for nearly 1,900 years whereby they endured two major holocausts. That's the literal piece.

The spiritual piece, they lost their exclusive covenant as God's chosen people and saw it given to the Gentiles. But this is lost on them too.

They never were God's chosen people. God's chosen people have always been the children of the promise and NEVER the children of the flesh.

 

[KJV1611]

16 post's, what do you get?

He's another day older and deeper in fret...

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I'm not fettin' Loco I'm waiting for you to explain who those ten thousands of saints were that returned with Jesus in AD 70. I'm sorry, those ten thousands who returned with Jesus' presence in AD70. Were those ten thousands in bodily form or was it just their presence also?

 

[Locutus]

Ok, let'st say you're right... When Jesus returned in AD 70 (LOL) who were the ten thousands of his saints that returned with him?

Jude 1:14 KJV
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

They are not necessary the dead "saints" - the host of heaven has been in "battle" before - the NASB and NIV translate this as "holy ones":

it was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones,

You only need to look back in the old testament to see "thousands" of "chariots" with the lord:

2 kings 6:17 Then Elisha prayed and said, “O LORD, I pray, open his eyes that he may see.” And the LORD opened the servant’s eyes and he saw; and behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha.

Read the account around Elisha

So to try use Jude is very debatable.

 

[Locutus]

Slept means that the SLEEP is over, they're not asleep any more.

The sooner you ditch the KJV the better - when Paul wrote only Christ arose from the "sleep", again the KJV messes up the Greek tense:

1 Cor 15:20 (NASB) But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep