The Rapture
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Originally Posted by Ahwatukee
This is not a good comparison. We are talking about the use of the word church from chapter 1 thru chapter 3. That is the only word used 18 times throughout those chapters. The word "saints" is not used at all within those same chapters. Then from chapter 4 onward and beginning in 5:8, only the word "saints" is used and the word church is never used. It is this abrupt change from the word "church" to the word "saints" that is the clue to understanding that the church is no longer on the earth after the end of chapter 3.
This is not a good comparison. We are talking about the use of the word church from chapter 1 thru chapter 3. That is the only word used 18 times throughout those chapters. The word "saints" is not used at all within those same chapters. Then from chapter 4 onward and beginning in 5:8, only the word "saints" is used and the word church is never used. It is this abrupt change from the word "church" to the word "saints" that is the clue to understanding that the church is no longer on the earth after the end of chapter 3.
But he regularly uses 'overcomer' throughout the book of triumphant church members.
Very true Bogadile the resurrection being bodily. There are some however who think that when a person dies that they have resurrected. Because of this, they have a resurrection taking place every time a person dies.
However as you pointed out, the Greek word Anastasis translated resurrection, properly means "to stand up again" in the same body that an individual lived in. Jesus would be a good example of meaning of this word, for His spirit left his body and three days later he resurrected, being found in the same body that he was crucified in, although a glorified body.
Other examples would be the raising of Lazarus, Tabitha, the daughter of Jairus the Synagogue ruler and others. However, those people did not resurrect into their immortal and glorified bodies and therefore died again.
However as you pointed out, the Greek word Anastasis translated resurrection, properly means "to stand up again" in the same body that an individual lived in. Jesus would be a good example of meaning of this word, for His spirit left his body and three days later he resurrected, being found in the same body that he was crucified in, although a glorified body.
Other examples would be the raising of Lazarus, Tabitha, the daughter of Jairus the Synagogue ruler and others. However, those people did not resurrect into their immortal and glorified bodies and therefore died again.
And how did you come to that determination, since the word Ekklesia/church is used in chapters 1 thru 3? Your claim is pure conjecture, your own assumption. It is just another apologetic to distort the truth. The letters to those churches represent types of churches and individual believers throughout the entire church period even to the present.
Also, that does not answer the question as to why the word church is used throughout chapters 1 thru 3 and in the same chapters the word saints is not found. Likewise from Rev.4 onward only the word Saints is ever used and the word church is never used again. These are God's clues for those who diligently study His word for them to find.
In relation to this, in Rev.4:1 John hears a voice that sounds like a trumpet which says "come up here" which is a masking or prophetic representing the gathering of the church. That "voice that sounds like a trumpet" is synonymous with the "trumpet call of God" found in 1 Thes.4:16. This is also the reason that the word "church" is not found from Rev.4 onward.
Also, that does not answer the question as to why the word church is used throughout chapters 1 thru 3 and in the same chapters the word saints is not found. Likewise from Rev.4 onward only the word Saints is ever used and the word church is never used again. These are God's clues for those who diligently study His word for them to find.
In relation to this, in Rev.4:1 John hears a voice that sounds like a trumpet which says "come up here" which is a masking or prophetic representing the gathering of the church. That "voice that sounds like a trumpet" is synonymous with the "trumpet call of God" found in 1 Thes.4:16. This is also the reason that the word "church" is not found from Rev.4 onward.
Originally Posted by valiant
The word 'church' is not found in Rev 1-3 referring to the whole of the people of God in the way that Paul does. It refers small groups within the people of God. It thus shows that John does not use church as Paul does for one body of Christ. When he refers to them as a whole he refers to them as 'the saints' (as Paul does in Rom 1.7; Eph 1.1; Phil 1.1; Col 1.2).
But he regularly uses 'overcomer' throughout the book of triumphant church members.
But he regularly uses 'overcomer' throughout the book of triumphant church members.
LOL read the chapters . It is a FACT.
May I suggest it is you who are distorting truth??,
you have not one jot of proof for that statement.
And why Paul sometimes writes to 'the church' and sometimes to 'the saints'? In Paul's usage (but not in john's) they are synonymous.
John NEVER uses ekklesia to refer to the whole church.
LOL you mean that you try to make it so? God doesn't leave us to guess by clues, He states things plainly.
It sounds to me like a command to John.
and the seventh or last trump? you pick and choose as you wish.
It is not found in the Pauline sense anywhere in revelation. Open you eyes.
As I said, this is your assumption. Nowhere in the context does it specify different assemblies. The letters represent types of church throughout the church age. Not only were they written to those churches of Asia that time, but it is meant for every individual throughout the entire church period to examine himself against those letters.
I sure do! All you have to do is read the letters. They are to all of the churches and individuals throughout the entire church period.
The word church and saints is used interchangeably through the NT. But that is not the case here in Revelation. By the way, God has many things hidden in his word for those to find who diligently search his word.
I had you on ignore all of this time and I just took you off last week. But now I need to put you back on because it is no use speaking with a preterist. It is impossible to debate anything using scripture, because you don't adhere to Revelation in the literal sense. You spiritualize everything. With this kind of interpretation you can no longer use scripture to prove a Biblical point.
Jesus and the disciples spoke of a resurrection, not a rapture. Other than possibly two passages from Paul (1 Cor 15:51-52 and 1 Thes 4:13-17) there is no hint of the living being changed and snatched off to heaven. Jesus never spoke of the living being changed and taken to heaven and neither did any of the other disciples or Biblical authors. For 1,800 years the Church as a whole taught only in a resurrection. The "rapture" doctrine is a relatively new doctrine (and nothing is new under heaven). Those who've had this teaching ingrained in their churches are irreversibly biased towards this belief system and after debating this topic on here for over 4 years, I can tell you that the biased rapture view has distorted so much of the Bible to the point where it is almost a cult.
I've tried to show you the correct way to read the two so-called rapture passages from Paul, the way 1,800 years of Christians have read them and you have stated several times that you cannot accept or believe any other view from the one you have because you don't believe that is the way God would operate (paraphrasing). The entire purpose of the "rapture doctrine" is to explain how Christians are removed from the wrath to come via the future "great tribulation." I and others (J7 and KJV1611 etc) have shown conclusively that the GT was the destruction of Jerusalem and it was the wrath of God and that the Christians were removed to Pella as many of the early church leaders and historians document. Therefore the need for a future rapture is moot.
Sadly, pre-tribbers cannot understand (and refuse to even consider) Biblical figurative language. They read well established OT figurative language as literal and think the world is going to burn up and all life end. They think as 21st century men think and not as 6th century BC or 1st century AD men think and write. This is a huge contributing factor distorting their view of prophesy. EXAMPLE: Our worship team played a popular song Sunday, "Build Your Kingdom Here." This song contains the following phrases:
"Set your church on fire"
"Win this nation back"
"Change the atmosphere"
"Set our hearts ablaze"
I venture to guess nobody reading this, including VCO and AHW think this song wants us to burn down our churches or hearts or alter earth's atmosphere or that the stake in a poker match was their country. I wonder how 1st century Christians would understand these phrases. Yet when pretribbers read similar colorful language they see literal mountains thrown into oceans, flying demon locust scorpions, 100 pound hailstones etc. even AFTER I've shown them how these symbols are used literally and what they really mean.
I want to help you so that you don't spend your life waiting for some glorious snatching up to heaven as 190 years of others have done, including many on these pages, including both my parents. It's still all my dad can talk about at 79 and nearing his end. He still tells me he hopes the rapture will come before he dies. It's really sad. "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment." Or put in modern terms, "Nothing is certain in life but death and taxes," LOL.
Putting this in simplest terms, if I am correct that Paul was not discussing a literal catching up and changing of the living whereby they are taken alive to heaven, which nobody (including Jesus) ever taught, and nobody has ever recorded seeing, what was he teaching? This is what we should be exploring because this notion conflicts with so many other passages.
I've tried to show you the correct way to read the two so-called rapture passages from Paul, the way 1,800 years of Christians have read them and you have stated several times that you cannot accept or believe any other view from the one you have because you don't believe that is the way God would operate (paraphrasing). The entire purpose of the "rapture doctrine" is to explain how Christians are removed from the wrath to come via the future "great tribulation." I and others (J7 and KJV1611 etc) have shown conclusively that the GT was the destruction of Jerusalem and it was the wrath of God and that the Christians were removed to Pella as many of the early church leaders and historians document. Therefore the need for a future rapture is moot.
Sadly, pre-tribbers cannot understand (and refuse to even consider) Biblical figurative language. They read well established OT figurative language as literal and think the world is going to burn up and all life end. They think as 21st century men think and not as 6th century BC or 1st century AD men think and write. This is a huge contributing factor distorting their view of prophesy. EXAMPLE: Our worship team played a popular song Sunday, "Build Your Kingdom Here." This song contains the following phrases:
"Set your church on fire"
"Win this nation back"
"Change the atmosphere"
"Set our hearts ablaze"
I venture to guess nobody reading this, including VCO and AHW think this song wants us to burn down our churches or hearts or alter earth's atmosphere or that the stake in a poker match was their country. I wonder how 1st century Christians would understand these phrases. Yet when pretribbers read similar colorful language they see literal mountains thrown into oceans, flying demon locust scorpions, 100 pound hailstones etc. even AFTER I've shown them how these symbols are used literally and what they really mean.
I want to help you so that you don't spend your life waiting for some glorious snatching up to heaven as 190 years of others have done, including many on these pages, including both my parents. It's still all my dad can talk about at 79 and nearing his end. He still tells me he hopes the rapture will come before he dies. It's really sad. "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment." Or put in modern terms, "Nothing is certain in life but death and taxes," LOL.
Putting this in simplest terms, if I am correct that Paul was not discussing a literal catching up and changing of the living whereby they are taken alive to heaven, which nobody (including Jesus) ever taught, and nobody has ever recorded seeing, what was he teaching? This is what we should be exploring because this notion conflicts with so many other passages.
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Obviously they've come off the rails on so much sound Biblical doctrine as I discussed in my last post. However, another one of their biggest problems is their concept of "life" and "death." Many of them haven't a clue when spiritual life or spiritual death is being discussed or even what they mean in the spiritual sense. Often times they get the spiritual and physical life and death reversed which is really playing havoc with their eschatology.
If you want to watch a pre-tribber's head explode. Ask them to explain the below passage:
Death is swallowed up in victory.”[SUP]55 [/SUP]“O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?” [SUP]56 [/SUP]The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. [SUP]57 [/SUP]But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
The only thing they can think of is rapture, rapture, rapture.
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If you want to watch a pre-tribber's head explode. Ask them to explain the below passage:
Death is swallowed up in victory.”[SUP]55 [/SUP]“O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?” [SUP]56 [/SUP]The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. [SUP]57 [/SUP]But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
The only thing they can think of is rapture, rapture, rapture.
.
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This is just not true. Justin Martyr, Ignatius, Ephrem the syrian, Tertullian, all the reformers, and 99% of Christians today all believe that the rapture is yet to happen.
Amillennialists do not make a big deal out of it like the pentecostals do, but you ask any Lutheran if the Church will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air when He returns and they will say YES.
You are on lonely waters with this, that does not mean it can not be true. But to say that what you are teaching has been taught for 1800 years is just not true, as if all of a sudden people started believing the resurrection is future 200 years ago. Not true.
ADDITION: To answer your previous post while I am at it, to the death is swallowed up in victory verse you posted. The answer truly is resurrection resurrection resurrection. Because death and hades are thrown into the lake of fire. Not to mention once you have a glorified resurrected body you will no longer die.
Again what you are doing is gnosticism on the low, claiming that this death is about some spiritual separation, the gnostics used exactly the same phrases. The flesh is evil inherently, therefore we who believe in a literal physical resurrection are carnally minded fools who need to open our spiritual eyes.
Amillennialists do not make a big deal out of it like the pentecostals do, but you ask any Lutheran if the Church will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air when He returns and they will say YES.
You are on lonely waters with this, that does not mean it can not be true. But to say that what you are teaching has been taught for 1800 years is just not true, as if all of a sudden people started believing the resurrection is future 200 years ago. Not true.
ADDITION: To answer your previous post while I am at it, to the death is swallowed up in victory verse you posted. The answer truly is resurrection resurrection resurrection. Because death and hades are thrown into the lake of fire. Not to mention once you have a glorified resurrected body you will no longer die.
Again what you are doing is gnosticism on the low, claiming that this death is about some spiritual separation, the gnostics used exactly the same phrases. The flesh is evil inherently, therefore we who believe in a literal physical resurrection are carnally minded fools who need to open our spiritual eyes.
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You are using two terms interchangeably - Rapture and Resurrection. The Church throughout history believed, and still believes in, the Resurrection, as do I incidentally. None of those guys you mention taught a rapture.
Just to be sure we are speaking in the same way. The rapture as I understand how you understand it, occurs AFTER the resurrection. It is the literal catching up of the living Church after Christ returns (ed) whereby people float up into the sky and their physical bodies are changed into glorified spiritual bodies and everyone (as in resurrected dead and transformed living) go to heaven and await the future world-wide great tribulation wrath of God whereby He uses Satan to fool people and kill people.
Did I get this right???
FYI, you did not fully answer my question which I'll address later.
Just to be sure we are speaking in the same way. The rapture as I understand how you understand it, occurs AFTER the resurrection. It is the literal catching up of the living Church after Christ returns (ed) whereby people float up into the sky and their physical bodies are changed into glorified spiritual bodies and everyone (as in resurrected dead and transformed living) go to heaven and await the future world-wide great tribulation wrath of God whereby He uses Satan to fool people and kill people.
Did I get this right???
FYI, you did not fully answer my question which I'll address later.
1 Thessalonians 4:15 KJV
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
If we that are alive and remain at his coming wont prevent those that are asleep, then why aren't the old testament saints risen.... Are we PREVENTING them?
If they're not waiting on those alive when Christ returns, then what are they waiting for, why can't they be changed already.... why do they have to wait on us?
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
If we that are alive and remain at his coming wont prevent those that are asleep, then why aren't the old testament saints risen.... Are we PREVENTING them?
If they're not waiting on those alive when Christ returns, then what are they waiting for, why can't they be changed already.... why do they have to wait on us?