The Rapture Thief Robs Jesuit Futurism Of The 7 Years Of Tribulation

[John146]

The metaphor of " a thief in the night" simply means unexpectedly. It can apply to the coming of Christ at the Rapture (which is imminent and could happen at any time), or it can apply to the onset of "the day of the LORD". But Peter applies it to the supernatural burning up of the atmospheric heaven and the earth, just before the New Heavens and the New Earth are established.

Yes, the day of the Lord refers to the second coming of Jesus Christ, the millennium. The day of the Lord is a thousand years. Peter would be correct, obviously, in that at the end of the thousand years the Lord burns up the heaven and earth which are now.

 

[massorite]

Bodies are resurrected (made new). At the resurrection. When death is finally swallowed up in victory.
Your spirit man goes to heaven when your body dies, you don't need a resurrected body for that.
1 Corinthians chapter 15 explains in detail.

Rev 6:9 gives us a view of martyrs that have died and dwell in heaven under the alter.
They are asking for vengeance but are told they must wait until the rest of their brothers are martyred.
The bodies aren't given until the resurrection day. (Or "rapture" if you are still physically living at the time)

Well if Christ is our example then we well do what He did which is first to descend into the lower reaches of the earth and He did not raise himself from the grave, God did.
Though your answer is a common one there is no scriptural proof that we go to heaven as soon as we die. You are right about our bodies being made new when we rise from the dead but that would mean that in order for Christ to raise us from the dead we would have to come back down and re-inhabit the grave which means we would come back to corruption in order to be raised from the grave again by Christ and then be changed again to an incorruptible body. That whole scenario simply doesn't line up with any scripture. Besides that "Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." isn't telling us anything about what happens to our soul when we die. However by researching the word "spirit" in this verse we find that it is actually talking about our "breath" (Strongs and the Thayers Greek English Lexicon #H7307). When we are born and fresh out of the womb the first thing we do is draw in our first breath and from that first breath we breath the breath of life which animates and supports our bodies functions including our brain which is put within us by God. But the moment we die and our bodies are no longer working that breath/spirit leaves our body and goes back to God who gave it to us. So if our bodies do in fact turn back to the dust of the earth and the word "spirit" is talking about our breath that goes out of us as we breath our last breath, then the only thing that would be left in the grave would be our soul and salvation is all about our soul. Where will our soul spend eternity? In hell or heaven?
As for the souls under the throne of God, I submit that those souls are crying out from the grave just as the soul of Abel did cried out to God for justice from the grave.
Gen 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
Scripture never tells us that those souls crying out for justice are actually in heaven at all. There is no unseen realm under the throne and the fact that those souls are under the throne shows that they are not worthy enough to be allowed to come out from under the throne and to be in the realm of heaven with God. IE they have not become incorruptible because they have not been raised from the grave. Isn't the earth and everything in it under the throne of God??
Bottom line is that if you were to try and find scriptural proof that tells us "You will go to heaven as soon as you die" you will not find that proof written anywhere in the Word of God.

 

[massorite]

Yes, the spirit, which is life to your body, returns to the Lord the giver of life, the body dies, and the soul which is the inner man goes to be with the Lord. Souls can speak, feel, think, etc...

Those souls under the alter were also given robes to wear.

Well if Christ is our example then we well do what He did which is first to descend into the lower reaches of the earth and He did not raise himself from the grave, God did.
Though your answer is a common one there is no scriptural proof that we go to heaven as soon as we die. You are right about our bodies being made new when we rise from the dead but that would mean that in order for Christ to raise us from the dead we would have to come back down and re-inhabit the grave which means we would come back to corruption in order to be raised from the grave again by Christ and then be changed again to an incorruptible body. That whole scenario simply doesn't line up with any scripture. Besides that "Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." isn't telling us anything about what happens to our soul when we die. However by researching the word "spirit" in this verse we find that it is actually talking about our "breath" (Strongs and the Thayers Greek English Lexicon #H7307). When we are born and fresh out of the womb the first thing we do is draw in our first breath and from that first breath we breath the breath of life which animates and supports our bodies functions including our brain which is put within us by God. But the moment we die and our bodies are no longer working that breath/spirit leaves our body and goes back to God who gave it to us. So if our bodies do in fact turn back to the dust of the earth and the word "spirit" is talking about our breath that goes out of us as we breath our last breath, then the only thing that would be left in the grave would be our soul and salvation is all about our soul. Where will our soul spend eternity? In hell or heaven?
As for the souls under the throne of God, I submit that those souls are crying out from the grave just as the soul of Abel did cried out to God for justice from the grave.
Gen 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
Scripture never tells us that those souls crying out for justice are actually in heaven at all. There is no unseen realm under the throne and the fact that those souls are under the throne shows that they are not worthy enough to be allowed to come out from under the throne and to be in the realm of heaven with God. IE they have not become incorruptible because they have not been raised from the grave. Isn't the earth and everything in it under the throne of God??
Bottom line is that if you were to try and find scriptural proof that tells us "You will go to heaven as soon as you die" you will not find that proof written anywhere in the Word of God.

 

[Phoneman-777]

OK Millerite! For someone who loves to call people Jesuits and likes to ridicule their eschatology may I remind you....
The Millerites were members of a religious sect who became famous in 19th century America for fervently believing the world was about to end. The name came from William Miller, an Adventist preacher from New York State who gained an enormous following for asserting, in fiery sermons, that Christ’s return was imminent.

At hundreds of tent meetings around America throughout the summers of the early 1840s, Miller and others convinced as many as one million Americans that Christ would be resurrected between the spring of 1843 and the spring of 1844. People came up with precise dates and prepared to meet their end.

As the various dates passed and the end of the world did not occur, the movement began to be ridiculed in the press. In fact, the name Millerite was originally bestowed upon the sect by detractors before coming into common usage in newspaper reports.

The date of October 22, 1844, was eventually chosen as the day when Christ would return and the faithful would ascend to heaven. There were reports of Millerites selling or giving away their worldly possessions, and even donning white robes to ascend to heaven.

The world did not end, of course. And while some followers of Miller gave up on him, he went on to play a role in the founding of the Seventh Day Adventist Church.

Now that we understand who started the eschatology of SDA we can can call each other names on equal grounds. And for your arguments to discount the Millerite eschatology and distance yourself from it, I have a greater argument for why premillenial theology has its roots in the scripture rather than the Jesuits.

Laying that aside and interpreting the Heavens rolled up like a scroll...

12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

And so we see there IS a progressive nature to these judgements that have a start as it relates to the heavens rolling up like a scroll and yet there continues to be actitivities on earth and a final destruction of the heavens later after more trumpets, and bowls etc..

And I meant no offense by calling you a Millerite. I am trying to make a point.

A pretty accurate account of history, if I may say so...but did you know that "Great Disappointment" was actually prophesied? The book that was sweet in the mouth, but bitter in the belly was the book of Daniel that was unsealed at the Time of the End when the sweet thought of the return of Jesus coming back to "cleanse the Sanctuary" was discovered by the prophecy of Daniel 8. They, however, were disappointed when He did not come, and that disappointment was "bitter", after which the angel said that God's people were to "prophesy again before many nations, peoples, and tongues."

Let's clarify the difference between Jesuits and Millerites:

The Millerites were confused by a wrong interpretation of what was the "Sanctuary" that was to be cleansed and misinterpreted the "Earth" to be it, which Jesus would come to "cleanse" with fire at the Second Coming..and honest mistake to say the least.

After the disappointment, they concluded the date was correct, but that the EVENT was wrong...and having discovered the Heavenly Sanctuary in which Jesus was ministering, they finally understood that it referred to Jesus moving from the Holy Place to the Most Holy Place to wrap up the final phase of His Ministry - which was the Judgement, which the OT Sanctuary exemplified. The teaching of the 2,300 Days and 1844 is spot on accurate, according to the template of Historicism.

Jesuit Futurism, however, is a colossal violation of Scripture. A 2000+ year GAP inserted between the 69th and 70th Weeks with absolutely no direction in Scripture for doing so, insistence that the Antichrist arises OUTSIDE of the church when the Bible over and over proclaims that its rise is WITHIN the church, insistence that a rebuilt Jerusalem temple is the "temple of God" when no such blasphemous temple would ever be referred to as such by God and when a perfectly good interpretation of what the "temple of God" is - the church - is available to fit the prophecy to a T...these are just a couple of the many reasons why the Adventists changed their beliefs when full understanding came, while the Jesuits continue to teach errors.

BTW, before you hate on the Millerites too much, please remember that the disciples spent 3 1/2 years with Jesus day and night, and at the end of that time, they STILL didn't understand about the Cross and the events that would happen afterward, right? Did they not, too, suffer a Great Disappointment concerning the First Advent of Jesus? What's more, if not for the Adventists, the Christian world would STILL be teaching that we are in the "1,000 years of peace after which Jesus will come" and be totally unprepared for His soon return, right?

What's important is that we learn from our mistakes, and not stubbornly stand by them, despite the evidence against it, as do the Jesuits.

 

[Absolutely]

The context demands the "day" is a literal "day" and not a thousand years. Do you really think it's going to take a thousand years to resurrect the saints? Are those saints that "are alive and remain" going to be waiting around kicking up dust while God takes a thousand years to get all the dead saints resurrected and transported up to Him in the air before the living saints finally go up after them?

Mary said "I know that my brother will live again in the resurrection in THE LAST DAY", not "the last thousand years". No, the Lord will come as a thief and raise the dead saints and then the living saints at the same time, as the Earth is crumbling around them, until finally nothing is left down here but the hunk of rock...unless it's going to take the Lord a thousand years to get the job done...

I know the postrib rapture talking points

Every one is a cliche.

DOTL
First trump
Last trump
Tim lahaye
Jesuit
McDonald

Pretrib rapture is easy to defend

 

[Absolutely]

The metaphor of " a thief in the night" simply means unexpectedly. It can apply to the coming of Christ at the Rapture (which is imminent and could happen at any time), or it can apply to the onset of "the day of the LORD". But Peter applies it to the supernatural burning up of the atmospheric heaven and the earth, just before the New Heavens and the New Earth are established.

Yes ,thank you.

Refreshing to see a bible come into the mix

 

[massorite]

Yes, the spirit, which is life to your body, returns to the Lord the giver of life, the body dies, and the soul which is the inner man goes to be with the Lord. Souls can speak, feel, think, etc...

Those souls under the alter were also given robes to wear.

Yes that is why the rich man was in hell with eye balls a tongue and could feel torment.

 

[John146]

Well if Christ is our example then we well do what He did which is first to descend into the lower reaches of the earth and He did not raise himself from the grave, God did.

What do you mean by Christ is our example? Paul tells the body of Christ that absent from the body is present with the Lord. It is far better to die and be with Christ than to live. The body dies, but the soul goes to be present with the Lord.

 

[John146]

Yes that is why the rich man was in hell with eye balls a tongue and could feel torment.

Yes, his soul was in hell.

 

[Absolutely]

A pretty accurate account of history, if I may say so...but did you know that "Great Disappointment" was actually prophesied? The book that was sweet in the mouth, but bitter in the belly was the book of Daniel that was unsealed at the Time of the End when the sweet thought of the return of Jesus coming back to "cleanse the Sanctuary" was discovered by the prophecy of Daniel 8. They, however, were disappointed when He did not come, and that disappointment was "bitter", after which the angel said that God's people were to "prophesy again before many nations, peoples, and tongues."

Let's clarify the difference between Jesuits and Millerites:

The Millerites were confused by a wrong interpretation of what was the "Sanctuary" that was to be cleansed and misinterpreted the "Earth" to be it, which Jesus would come to "cleanse" with fire at the Second Coming..and honest mistake to say the least.

After the disappointment, they concluded the date was correct, but that the EVENT was wrong...and having discovered the Heavenly Sanctuary in which Jesus was ministering, they finally understood that it referred to Jesus moving from the Holy Place to the Most Holy Place to wrap up the final phase of His Ministry - which was the Judgement, which the OT Sanctuary exemplified. The teaching of the 2,300 Days and 1844 is spot on accurate, according to the template of Historicism.

Jesuit Futurism, however, is a colossal violation of Scripture. A 2000+ year GAP inserted between the 69th and 70th Weeks with absolutely no direction in Scripture for doing so, insistence that the Antichrist arises OUTSIDE of the church when the Bible over and over proclaims that its rise is WITHIN the church, insistence that a rebuilt Jerusalem temple is the "temple of God" when no such blasphemous temple would ever be referred to as such by God and when a perfectly good interpretation of what the "temple of God" is - the church - is available to fit the prophecy to a T...these are just a couple of the many reasons why the Adventists changed their beliefs when full understanding came, while the Jesuits continue to teach errors.

BTW, before you hate on the Millerites too much, please remember that the disciples spent 3 1/2 years with Jesus day and night, and at the end of that time, they STILL didn't understand about the Cross and the events that would happen afterward, right? Did they not, too, suffer a Great Disappointment concerning the First Advent of Jesus? What's more, if not for the Adventists, the Christian world would STILL be teaching that we are in the "1,000 years of peace after which Jesus will come" and be totally unprepared for His soon return, right?

What's important is that we learn from our mistakes, and not stubbornly stand by them, despite the evidence against it, as do the Jesuits.

Lol
The historicist position refuses to see that very dynamic of getting it wrong.

Pssst....the church fathers looked through a prism of a destroyed and scattered israel.

Israel becoming a nation reset the prophetic clock.

Add to that that pretrib rapturists were heretics to the Catholics and burned them and their writings.
Burned entire villages.

 

[PlainWord]

No
I said the opposite.

So you are saying when we die today, we are immediately taken to heaven as complete spiritual beings possessing, body, soul and spirit?

 

[PlainWord]

Yes, the spirit, which is life to your body, returns to the Lord the giver of life, the body dies, and the soul which is the inner man goes to be with the Lord. Souls can speak, feel, think, etc...

Those souls under the alter were also given robes to wear.

Souls can speak, feel, think, etc...

If souls have all the senses, what do we need a body for?

As for the "souls" under the alter, are you saying they were disembodied? You do know that it is common to refer to people as souls, right? "On April 15, 1912, Titanic sank, 1,517 souls were lost." When a plane goes down, it goes down with x number of souls onboard.

 

[PlainWord]

Yes, his soul was in hell.

Do souls have vocal cords to talk, optical nerves to see, inner ear bones to hear and regular nerves to transmit pain? Do they have a tongue to drip water on?

24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’

I read about one person with a finger and another with a tongue. Since these "souls" already have all their body parts with all their sensory abilities, what would be different about them after the resurrection?

 

[Phoneman-777]

The metaphor of " a thief in the night" simply means unexpectedly. It can apply to the coming of Christ at the Rapture (which is imminent and could happen at any time), or it can apply to the onset of "the day of the LORD". But Peter applies it to the supernatural burning up of the atmospheric heaven and the earth, just before the New Heavens and the New Earth are established.

It can only apply to the one or the other, because it says the "day (singular) of the Lord" comes as a thief. And that is where Jesuit Futurists run into trouble due to their having separated the two events by the 7 years that are sliced off in Daniel 9 and sent down to this period at the end.

However, Protestant Historicism has no problem applying this "thief in the night" description to a single day because we teach what the Bible teaches: that the saints are "caught up" to Jesus at the same time on the same day when He comes in the clouds at His glorious Second Coming

 

[Phoneman-777]

If souls have all the senses, what do we need a body for?

As for the "souls" under the alter, are you saying they were disembodied? You do know that it is common to refer to people as souls, right? "On April 15, 1912, Titanic sank, 1,517 souls were lost." When a plane goes down, it goes down with x number of souls onboard.

According to Genesis 2:7, a Soul comes into existence at the union of the Body and the Breath of Life. At death, the Breath of Life (whether that of a saint, a sinner, or even an animal) returns to God, the Body returns to the Earth, and the Soul ceases to be...until either the one or the other of the two resurrections.

 

[Nehemiah6]

It can only apply to the one or the other, because it says the "day (singular) of the Lord" comes as a thief.

No. That metaphor has two applications.

CHRIST COMES "AS A THIEF" (UNEXPECTEDLY) AT THE RAPTURE
MATTHEW 24 & 25:
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh...
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of...
25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh...
Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee... Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. (Rev 3:3; 16:15)

THE DAY OF THE LORD COMES "AS A THIEF IN THE NIGHT" (UNEXPECTEDLY)
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. (1 Thess 5:2)
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. (2 Pet 3:10)

 

[massorite]

What do you mean by Christ is our example? Paul tells the body of Christ that absent from the body is present with the Lord. It is far better to die and be with Christ than to live. The body dies, but the soul goes to be present with the Lord.

You asked "What do you mean by Christ is our example?" Christ died and He first descended into the lower parts of the earth and He did not raise from the grave until God raised him from the grave and just like Christ we will die and we will descend down to the lower parts of the earth and we will stay there until Christ raises us from the grave on Resurrection Day. Paradise is in the lower parts of the earth.
So lets take the whole verse into consideration instead of quoting only half of the verse and assuming it says something that it doesn't.
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
This verse in no way says "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" . Paul is saying that he is confident that we are willing rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. When you quote this verse and quote only half of the verse you change the context of the verse to make it sound like it is saying something it is not. By leaving out the words "willing rather"you changes the verse from saying that we would willingly rather be out of this body and to be present with the Lord. Yes without question I would willingly rather be with my Lord then here on this earth and in my body.
But this verse in no way says that we go to heaven as soon as we die.
The soul dose not go striaght to the Lord and there is no scriptural proof that it goes anywhere other then the grave until the soul is raised from the grave by Christ on Resurrection day.

 

[massorite]

What do you mean by Christ is our example? Paul tells the body of Christ that absent from the body is present with the Lord. It is far better to die and be with Christ than to live. The body dies, but the soul goes to be present with the Lord.

Find in the Word of God where it says that when we die our soul goes straight to heaven. But before you search for it I am telling you that there is no such scripture that says that when we die we go straight to heaven. How do I know that? Because I have spent a long tome looking for it. I am very strict about scripture and I have a line that I draw in the sand so to speak. If it is not written in the Word of God then it is not. If I can't find where it is clearly spelled out in scripture then I never assume that it is true because I consider it to be a sin to assume anything about the Word of God and God never meant for us to assume anything about His Word.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

So you are saying when we die today, we are immediately taken to heaven as complete spiritual beings possessing, body, soul and spirit?

Will you please read my post properly.
And read 1 Corinthians chapter 15 as I suggested. Because the apostle explains in detail.
This is basic. there is no need for all this speculation and it isn't difficult to understand.

Bodies are resurrected (made new). At the resurrection. When death is finally swallowed up in victory.
Your spirit man goes to heaven when your body dies, you don't need a resurrected body for that.
1 Corinthians chapter 15 explains in detail.

Rev 6:9 gives us a view of martyrs that have died and dwell in heaven under the alter.
They are asking for vengeance but are told they must wait until the rest of their brothers are martyred.
The bodies aren't given until the resurrection day. (Or "rapture" if you are still physically living at the time)

 

[PlainWord]

Will you please read my post properly.
And read 1 Corinthians chapter 15 as I suggested. Because the apostle explains in detail.
This is basic. there is no need for all this speculation and it isn't difficult to understand.

Will you please read my post properly.
And read 1 Corinthians chapter 15 as I suggested. Because the apostle explains in detail.
This is basic. there is no need for all this speculation and it isn't difficult to understand.

I'm not asking because I don't understand. I am asking for your interpretation of these passages:

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

In your view, is there any part of our physical body that is used in our spiritual body? Are any molecules of our flesh body found in our spiritual body?