The Rapture Event

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Jesus said" Jerusalem shall be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled."

Christ returns when the times of the gentiles are fulfilled. At that point the mystery of God, ie the temple (body of Christ), will be complete and the 7th trumpet will sound, which signals Christ's return and the resurrection.

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet, for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1 Corinthians 15:52​

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But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he begins to sound, the mystery of God will be finished, as he has declared to his servants the prophets. Revelation 10:7.​

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Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Colossians 1:26-27​

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You also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. 1 Peter 2:5​

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Once the temple is completed, ie, the last living stone is added to the temple of God, no man will be able to enter the temple until the wrath of God has been poured out on mankind

And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled. Revelation 15:8​

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[randyk]

The postrib position leaves no room for a separate focus of God to do what he declared in romans to gather the Jews.
Jesus said" Jerusalem shall be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled."
That is the cut off point.
At that POINT God turns to the focus of the covenant Jews ( the subject of romans 9,10,11.)
The trib is framed in that concept.
( the purpose of the gt is to plow the Jews and bring them home. They will see rev14:14 (Jesus ) and know he is the Messiah they are , and have been waiting for.
Rev 14 is the Jewish Gathering.
So many,many things the postrib rapture theory COMPLETELY leaves out.
It is uncanny ,the NECESSARY OMISSIONS needed to believe in a postrib rapture.

Yes, Dispensationalism has a special focus on the Jews in the last times. In my Postrib view, the Jews are in fact dealt with--only a little later. They go through the troubles of the "Great Tribulation" period, as do all nations. But when Christ returns he will return to the Jewish People, to restore their State forevermore.

So I don't really think Pretrib and Postrib are that far apart. Each nation does have a separate destiny, and this would include the Jews. All the nations of Europe have had their day to come to Christianity, and each of them have had their day of backsliding and apostasy. And so, I believe all these Christian nations, along with Israel, will be brought back to God at the Return of Christ.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

But when Christ returns he will return to the Jewish People, to restore their State forevermore.

How? God's people are either resurrected or translated when he returns, the bowls of wrath are poured out on the world and then Christ and his people descend to a destroyed world to rule and reign over what's left.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

And so, I believe all these Christian nations, along with Israel, will be brought back to God at the Return of Christ.

They, as the rest of the world, will be utterly destroyed (think global nuclear war and worse). Whoever is left by God's mercy will become the nations of the world under the rule of Christ and his resurrected/translated people

 

[randyk]

How? God's people are either resurrected or translated when he returns, the bowls of wrath are poured out on the world and then Christ and his people descend to a destroyed world to rule and reign over what's left.

Well, there isn't just one single Postrib perspective on this. My own perspective does not interpret the things you mention the way you do. Just as the plagues that come upon the world in the last days destroy only a third of the world, so there will lbe many who survive until the Coming of the Lord. Many of these are young and have not had time to know the Lord. And many others are old and simply did not hear from faithful witnesses in a time of backsliding and apostasy in the Church.

So when Christ comes there will be lots of people entering into the New Age, just as we all passed into a New Millennium after 1999. The Gospel will continue its ministry, although in a New World in which the Gospel will no longer be restrained by the Devil and his angels. People will still be resistant to God's Word, just as they are in the present age, because they will still be mortal and they will still have their own internal Sin--they don't need Satan for that!

So we simply see things differently. Israel will be the last of the nations to become Christian, which will take place *after* Christ returns. The last to become nations of God, ie the Gentiles, were "last," and Israel has been "first." But now the Gentiles have been the "first" to become Christian nations, and Israel will be the "last" to become a Christian nation.

Incidentally, it is common for people to mistakenly read into the sense of "universal judgment" the Revelation speaks of, and think it is so comprehensive that all is destroyed. But the OT Prophets used these same kinids of universal declarations of judgment and applied them only to local kingdoms and empires, which at the time covered vast stretches of the earth.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

So we simply see things differently. Israel will be the last of the nations to become Christian, which will take place *after* Christ returns. The last to become nations of God, ie the Gentiles, were "last," and Israel has been "first." But now the Gentiles have been the "first" to become Christian nations, and Israel will be the "last" to become a Christian nation.

I simply don't understand your logic on this. The land of Israel will be the most Christian place on earth when the lord returns because that's where all of his people will be. Is that what you mean?

 

[randyk]

I simply don't understand your logic on this. The land of Israel will be the most Christian place on earth when the lord returns because that's where all of his people will be. Is that what you mean?

No, I apologize if I'm not very clear. Dispensationalism tends to see a "7 years period of Great Tribulation* as being the time when Israel is turned back to God. By contrast, my non-Dispensationalist view sees a *3.5 year period* in which Israel's rebellion is judged and brought to an end.

It is when Israel's judgment is completed that Christ Returns to deliver what remains of Israel to defeat the Antichrist and Israel's enemies, and to re-establish them as His People and His Nation (they will join many Christian nations in becoming the last Christian nation in history). All of these former nations of God will be restored when Christ Returns, in my view.

I'm not saying you have to agree. I'm just hoping this clarifies my position, wrong or right?

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

No, I apologize if I'm not very clear. Dispensationalism tends to see a "7 years period of Great Tribulation* as being the time when Israel is turned back to God. By contrast, my non-Dispensationalist view sees a *3.5 year period* in which Israel's rebellion is judged and brought to an end.

It is when Israel's judgment is completed that Christ Returns to deliver what remains of Israel to defeat the Antichrist and Israel's enemies, and to re-establish them as His People and His Nation (they will join many Christian nations in becoming the last Christian nation in history). All of these former nations of God will be restored when Christ Returns, in my view.

I'm not saying you have to agree. I'm just hoping this clarifies my position, wrong or right?

FWIW there really are no Christian nations except for perhaps Russia, the government of which openly champions Christianity, but even that's a stretch IMO to call it a Christian nation. But they're about as close as it gets in the current era

 

[randyk]

FWIW there really are no Christian nations except for perhaps Russia, the government of which openly champions Christianity, but even that's a stretch IMO to call it a Christian nation. But they're about as close as it gets in the current era

I've had this argument many times before, and I still think it's ludicrous. Consult any dictionary or encycloopedia, and you will find there is a reality called "Christian nations," whether they represent good, doctrinally-orthodox peoples or not.

When God chose Israel He knew what He would get--a stiff-necked people, as He said using His own words. God is gracious, and insists that not just a few individuals in a state be Christian, but that the entire society behave in a Christian manner, in the interest of justice and social compassion.

In our day, Christian nations appear on the way out because like Israel we've abandoned our Christian heritage in the West. Yes, Russia still claims to be a Christian nation but obviously is a vestage of its former self, though it has never been entirely Christian any more than any nation has ever been "fully" Christian.

But I think we should be agreed that God *wants* entire societies to live by His commandments, and obey His Spirit?

 

[Psalm1]

Yes, Dispensationalism has a special focus on the Jews in the last times. In my Postrib view, the Jews are in fact dealt with--only a little later. They go through the troubles of the "Great Tribulation" period, as do all nations. But when Christ returns he will return to the Jewish People, to restore their State forevermore.

So I don't really think Pretrib and Postrib are that far apart. Each nation does have a separate destiny, and this would include the Jews. All the nations of Europe have had their day to come to Christianity, and each of them have had their day of backsliding and apostasy. And so, I believe all these Christian nations, along with Israel, will be brought back to God at the Return of Christ.

Forget "dispensationalism"
The bible is my "go to"
The bible says 144k firstfruits are in heaven in Rev 14. That is roughly mid trib.
No wrath yet. That comes AFTER Rev 14.
Rev 15 Starts the wrath poured out.
it is clear that the firstfruit JEWS are gathered to heaven during the trib.
That is a clear fact.
It is also clear it is a fulfillment of Paul's prophecy in rom 9,10,11, that they will be grafted back in THROUGH JESUS. ( NOT some default act of his coming as you are inferring)

 

[randyk]

Forget "dispensationalism"
The bible is my "go to"
The bible says 144k firstfruits are in heaven in Rev 14. That is roughly mid trib.
No wrath yet. That comes AFTER Rev 14.
Rev 15 Starts the wrath poured out.
it is clear that the firstfruit JEWS are gathered to heaven during the trib.
That is a clear fact.
It is also clear it is a fulfillment of Paul's prophecy in rom 9,10,11, that they will be grafted back in THROUGH JESUS. ( NOT some default act of his coming as you are inferring)

You sound very hard-hearted in your response. "Forget Dispensationalism?" It is a major player in interpreting these things. "It is a clear fact?" No, it isn't. Visions that do not say what you're saying does not make *your opinion* a "clear fact."

But if you're unwilling to debate, and are settled on your views, there's no sense discussing is...

 

[Psalm1]

You sound very hard-hearted in your response. "Forget Dispensationalism?" It is a major player in interpreting these things. "It is a clear fact?" No, it isn't. Visions that do not say what you're saying does not make *your opinion* a "clear fact."

But if you're unwilling to debate, and are settled on your views, there's no sense discussing is...

You sound very hard-hearted in your response. "Forget Dispensationalism?" It is a major player in interpreting these things. "It is a clear fact?" No, it isn't. Visions that do not say what you're saying does not make *your opinion* a "clear fact."

But if you're unwilling to debate, and are settled on your views, there's no sense discussing is...

Here is Rev 14.
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

(The firstfruits before the throne in heaven.)

Which part of that verse is not a fact?

Saying the book of Rev is irrelevant does not make for any discussion.

What are you some forum policeman diagnosing my heart?????

What kind of baloney is that????
You do not know me or any intentions of myself.
In fact all you are showing me is you are trying to deflect from any discussion at all.
You are so busy framing Rev as irrelevant, and me as some "low charachter", you can't even enter a discussion.
What is wrong with you????
Troubles at home or something??????

 

[randyk]

Here is Rev 14.
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

(The firstfruits before the throne in heaven.)

Which part of that verse is not a fact?

The vision indicates that the 144,000 are with the Lamb on Mt. Zion. We do not *clearly* see what that means, whether it is taking place "during the Tribulation,* or who the 144,000 are, symbolic or real?

In my view, this is anything but "clear!" Go ahead and take a shot at what you *think* it means! But the information you give me does not make it clear to me.

 

[Psalm1]

They, as the rest of the world, will be utterly destroyed (think global nuclear war and worse). Whoever is left by God's mercy will become the nations of the world under the rule of Christ and his resurrected/translated people

Not possible.
The mil will be next after the 2nd coming.

 

[Psalm1]

Christ returns when the times of the gentiles are fulfilled. At that point the mystery of God, ie the temple (body of Christ), will be complete and the 7th trumpet will sound, which signals Christ's return and the resurrection.

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet, for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1 Corinthians 15:52​

​

But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he begins to sound, the mystery of God will be finished, as he has declared to his servants the prophets. Revelation 10:7.​

​

Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Colossians 1:26-27​

​

You also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. 1 Peter 2:5​

​

Once the temple is completed, ie, the last living stone is added to the temple of God, no man will be able to enter the temple until the wrath of God has been poured out on mankind

And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled. Revelation 15:8​

​

​

[/QUOTE/].


Jesus said" Jerusalem shall be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled."

That is romans 9,10,11

Jesus said" Jerusalem shall be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled."

That is romans 9,10,11

 

[Psalm1]

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FAQ: What is the purpose of the rapture?

REPLY: It's primarily an evacuation.

For example Rev 16:17-18 predicts a global earthquake so overwhelming on
the Richter scale that cities all over the world will collapse at once.

Something like 2,829 lost their lives when the World Trade Center was
demolished by a terrorist attack in 2001. Well that was only a few acres of
New York City. Just imagine the body count when all of Manhattan comes
down at once. along with other major cities like Los Angeles, San Francisco,
Mexico City, Paris, Moscow, Beijing, Tokyo, et al.

The carnage will be beyond belief; and that's just one of the many life
threatening events set to take place.
_

No
The rapture is Gathering of the bride vividly depicted in Matthew 25.
All rapture verses are peace time, Normal life ,and commerce, so it cannot possibly be anything but a pretribulation rapture.