THE GREAT DEBATE...LAW AND GRACE

[Brainfreeze]

Amen and you would think a guy who walked on water...oh wait...He sunk, denied the Lord three times and played the hypocrite with the Gentiles when the Jews came around.....I think Paul knew way more than Peter did.....and had a more complete understanding!

He's human, .. He was made whole with the Holy Spirit though, and Paul taught him right and he accepted what he knew was right with humility, like we are all called to do.. The Spirit guided them both into all truths..

 

[Hizikyah]

Amen and you would think a guy who walked on water...oh wait...He sunk, denied the Lord three times and played the hypocrite with the Gentiles when the Jews came around.....I think Paul knew way more than Peter did.....and had a more complete understanding!

Ohh so now the disciples and Paul have rankings.... wow.

So they can be ranked but Messiah is not above them all?

 

[dcontroversal]

I agree with what you say here.

But we HAVE to look to the Messiah as Savior and RULER.

All I can do is speak on myself, I believe if I don;t make Him my Ruler as He has made Himself my Savior, I will be in trouble.

If one truly studies what the Messiah said, I thank many would have a different doctrine than what is commonly accepted, JMO.

Among many other things Messiah said this,

Luke 6:46, "And why call Me; Ruler! Ruler! and do not the things which I say?"

Mattithyah 5:19, "Whosoever, therefore, will break one of the least of these Laws, and will teach men so, he will be called the least in the Kingdom of Yahweh; but whosoever will do and teach them, the same will be called great in the Kingdom of Yahweh."

Mattithyah 22:36-40, "Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the Law? Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Its in Scripture... It all there


Mattithyah 7:23, "But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."

Ignore? Not me.

You know that I teach and believe we are to follow the word of God.....What was it that ratified the N.T. and when was it Ratified? And notice...those who teach and break will STILL BE WHERE....although considered the LEAST?

 

[Brainfreeze]

I agree with what you say here.

But we HAVE to look to the Messiah as Savior and RULER.

All I can do is speak on myself, I believe if I don;t make Him my Ruler as He has made Himself my Savior, I will be in trouble.

If one truly studies what the Messiah said, I thank many would have a different doctrine than what is commonly accepted, JMO.

Among many other things Messiah said this,

Luke 6:46, "And why call Me; Ruler! Ruler! and do not the things which I say?"

Mattithyah 5:19, "Whosoever, therefore, will break one of the least of these Laws, and will teach men so, he will be called the least in the Kingdom of Yahweh; but whosoever will do and teach them, the same will be called great in the Kingdom of Yahweh."

Mattithyah 22:36-40, "Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the Law? Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Its in Scripture... It all there

Mattithyah 7:23, "But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."

Ignore? Not me.

Your dead, HizikYah... We live through the living Holy Spirit.. Rules don't apply to Spirit living, they apply to the carnal thinkers and doers..

 

[Mitspa]

I don't know what the debate is about personally. I mean we need both. If we did not have the law which shows us what sin is then we would not need grace. No law no sin no need of grace. But because we have the law which shows us what sin is and how far we have fallen from God's expectations then we by all means need grace. Jesus died to pay the price of the broken law for us.

So again I ask Why the debate?

This is the most discussed issue of the New Testament and it completely changes the way God deals with man and who can have fellowship with God...This issue is why Paul suffered so many beatings at the hands of the Jews or at least by those stirred up by the Jews...this issue is why Jesus called the hypocrites of His day vipers and children of the devil....Until someone really understands the standard and judgment of the law against us, they cannot really understand the beauty of grace and how great a covenant God has given us in Christ.

 

[dcontroversal]

Ohh so now the disciples and Paul have rankings.... wow.

So they can be ranked but Messiah is not above them all?

I never said that and it is obvious that Paul knew more than Peter and the average believer...NO WHERE DID I PLACE PAUL ABOVE JESUS AS THE WORDS THAT PAUL TAUGHT WERE THE WORDS OF JESUS AND EQUALLY THE WORDS OF GOD....when not PAUL would make distinction.....quit adding words or ideas that I did not say HIZ!

 

[kennethcadwell]

11 But when Peter came to Antioch, I had to oppose him to his face, for what he did was very wrong. 12 When he first arrived, he ate with the Gentile believers, who were not circumcised. But afterward, when some friends of James came, Peter wouldn’t eat with the Gentiles anymore. He was afraid of criticism from these people who insisted on the necessity of circumcision. 13 As a result, other Jewish believers followed Peter’s hypocrisy, and even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy.


…15and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,

Paul did not rebuke Peter for giving a false gospel message.
Peter was rebuked for trying to push the OT mosaic ordinances on the new converts. These written ordinances do not apply under the new testament.

Good try though, but this what not talking about preaching a wrong gospel, it was about should new believers following old traditions.

 

[dcontroversal]

if the president pardons a man who murdered(broke the law).....and the man after being pardoned does not murder anymore (break the law)...is he now earning his pardon by not murdering anymore (breaking the law)?
In the same way we were born again into the kingdom of Christ and given a new sin free start....created a new creature unto good works...that is doing what we ought to do... our reasonable sacrifice...it is not earning or acquiring anything....

This view is flawed based upon two things...

1. The pardon has been issued and given based upon what the president did and not what the man had done.
2. The pardon is past tense and is not issued based upon what the man may or may not do....

 

[Hizikyah]

I don't know what the debate is about personally. I mean we need both. If we did not have the law which shows us what sin is then we would not need grace. No law no sin no need of grace. But because we have the law which shows us what sin is and how far we have fallen from God's expectations then we by all means need grace. Jesus died to pay the price of the broken law for us.

So again I ask Why the debate?

I think the real underlying issue is after one has accepted the Messiah what is the path.

I would say reading, praying, and contemplating on the Scriptural life Instructions to glean true understanding.

Others would say that reading those Instructions and contemplating on them is legalism and so very evil....

 

[kennethcadwell]

Amen and you would think a guy who walked on water...oh wait...He sunk, denied the Lord three times and played the hypocrite with the Gentiles when the Jews came around.....I think Paul knew way more than Peter did.....and had a more complete understanding!

Yet Peter was the one who Jesus put in charge of the church, not Paul. (Matthew 16:18-19)
Paul's commission was just to spread the gospel message to the gentiles.

 

[Brainfreeze]

I never said that and it is obvious that Paul knew more than Peter and the average believer...NO WHERE DID I PLACE PAUL ABOVE JESUS AS THE WORDS THAT PAUL TAUGHT WERE THE WORDS OF JESUS AND EQUALLY THE WORDS OF GOD....when not PAUL would make distinction.....quit adding words or ideas that I did not say HIZ!

Yahshua could only explain to them the best He could to any human.. THE HOLY SPIRIT wasn't there yet, Paul took to the Spirit more quickly and understood YAH not better but more easier then most..

 

[kennethcadwell]

Your dead, HizikYah... We live through the living Holy Spirit.. Rules don't apply to Spirit living, they apply to the carnal thinkers and doers..

Your right rules don't apply to us who walk in spirit, because we are to walk in His teachings/commands out of love for Him.
Making them a everyday part of our lives, and not look at them as a set of laws or rules.

 

[newbirth]

SO..if the punishment of the law has been alleviated I have two questions....

1. What was the reason behind the punishment to begin with?
2. If the punishment has been done away with, what is the point of the law?

(1)the wages of sin is death...the law was not to punish but to keep you from being punished....it was a guide to keep people from doing wrong.....(sin) only those who broke the law were punished....

(2) The punishment was not removed...but those who are become dead in Christ cannot be harmed by the punishment...the law has no power over the dead...the law is alive and well for those who are not in Christ...that is why if one steps out of Christ the law is there ready to hold him prisoner...and condemn him because of sin...

 

[Hizikyah]

I never said that and it is obvious that Paul knew more than Peter and the average believer...NO WHERE DID I PLACE PAUL ABOVE JESUS AS THE WORDS THAT PAUL TAUGHT WERE THE WORDS OF JESUS AND EQUALLY THE WORDS OF GOD....when not PAUL would make distinction.....quit adding words or ideas that I did not say HIZ!

How do you say Paul is higher than Peter, but then equal with Messiah?

If they were all led by the Spirit how is Paul know more than Peter?

Do you like Paul's writings more?

and not only did Paul keep the Law, he said there is no distinction between Jew or Gentile, not two ways but one way.... So if the Law was a goner, and Paul was still doing "Moses" Law, which he was in Acts, would Paul be "tangled in the Law" and thus fallen?

I get told im wrong, yet Paul did it, why nothing about him being wrong?

Romans 7:25, "Thanks be to Yahweh, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of Yahweh, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin."


Acts 21:24, "Take them, and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads. Then everyone will know that those things they were informed about you (forsaking the Law), were lies, and that you, yourself, walk orderly, and keep the Law."

 

[Mitspa]

That part right there then that I highlighted would be the problem.
Paul did not clearly teach the gospel, and Peter came behind him and wrote an epistle to explain this to those who had a hard time understanding him. Peter and Paul both combined made a point that they can not, nor can anybody else come and teach a different gospel, or a different Jesus then what Jesus had already given us.
All Paul did was confirm to the gentiles what Jesus had already taught, nothing new or different. And this way of thinking of going by a misunderstanding of Paul's writings over what Jesus taught is what has been dubbed as Paulinians, and this style has been proven false by many biblical scholars over the years.

Well of course your just trying to change the discussion...but the scriptures declare in clear terms that all men will be judged by Pauls gospel and if any man preach any other gospel than what Paul taught the are accursed....This is written just before its recorded how Paul rebuked Peter and the others for straying from the truth of the gospel...but you can just ignore those warnings if you like?

 

[dcontroversal]

Yet Peter was the one who Jesus put in charge of the church, not Paul. (Matthew 16:18-19)
Paul's commission was just to spread the gospel message to the gentiles.

Peter wasn't put in charge of anything and this is your Catholic roots coming thru.....I suggest a GREEK study of the words pebble and stone as applied unto the verses you are alluding to.

 

[Hizikyah]

Well of course your just trying to change the discussion...but the scriptures declare in clear terms that all men will be judged by Pauls gospel and if any man preach any other gospel than what Paul taught the are accursed....This is written just before its recorded how Paul rebuked Peter and the others for straying from the truth of the gospel...but you can just ignore those warnings if you like?

Men will be judged by Pauls gospel....

Here is what Jesus Christ (Yahshua) says;

Mattithyah 16:27, “For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His Malakim; and then He will reward every man according to his works.”

Yahchanan (John) 5:28-30, “Do not be astonished at this-for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice, and will come forth. Those who have practiced righteousness will be resurrected in order to live; and those who have practiced wickedness will be resurrected in order to be damned."

 

[Brainfreeze]

Yet Peter was the one who Jesus put in charge of the church, not Paul. (Matthew 16:18-19)
Paul's commission was just to spread the gospel message to the gentiles.

For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

 

[Mitspa]

Yet Peter was the one who Jesus put in charge of the church, not Paul. (Matthew 16:18-19)
Paul's commission was just to spread the gospel message to the gentiles.

Have you read past Matthew? Have you read Galatians? And this sounds like some of that RCC stuff...its known that Peter did not even rule the Jewish Church. but James had the rule.

 

[dcontroversal]

How do you say Paul is higher than Peter, but then equal with Messiah?

If they were all led by the Spirit how is Paul know more than Peter?

Do you like Paul's writings more?

and not only did Paul keep the Law, he said there is no distinction between Jew or Gentile, not two ways but one way.... So if the Law was a goner, and Paul was still doing "Moses" Law, which he was in Acts, would Paul be "tangled in the Law" and thus fallen?

I get told im wrong, yet Paul did it, why nothing about him being wrong?

Romans 7:25, "Thanks be to Yahweh, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of Yahweh, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin."


Acts 21:24, "Take them, and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads. Then everyone will know that those things they were informed about you (forsaking the Law), were lies, and that you, yourself, walk orderly, and keep the Law."

Do you understand English words....where did I say PAUL was HIGHER than PETER...you do know the difference between..

HIGHER
and
KNEW MORE

Come on dude, start reading more SLOWLY and paying attention to what is said.....!