THE GREAT DEBATE...LAW AND GRACE

[passinthru]

I Timothy:[SUP]4[/SUP] Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.
[SUP]5[/SUP] Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
[SUP]6[/SUP] From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
[SUP]7[/SUP] Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
[SUP]8[/SUP] But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
[SUP]9[/SUP] Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
[SUP]10[/SUP] For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
[SUP]11[/SUP] According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
[SUP]12[/SUP] And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
[SUP]13[/SUP] Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
[SUP]14[/SUP] And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
[SUP]15[/SUP] This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
[SUP]16[/SUP] Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
[SUP]17[/SUP] Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
[SUP]18[/SUP] This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
[SUP]19[/SUP] Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
[SUP]20[/SUP] Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

 

[kennethcadwell]

WATER Baptism is a precious thing. Recently a water baptism was taking place and a man who no one knew came over off the street and asked to be baptized. Praise God! A few years ago during a prison ministry meeting we baptized 30 plus inmates. Praise God. But for anyone to say that someone is not eligible through the blood of Jesus to be with the one who they just accepted as savior for eternity is heresy! I did mention it earlier, my brother,that when one accepts Christ sincerely into their life they are at that moment technically baptized into Christ. I trust that you , who I feel has a sincere desire to please God, will trust God to show you that adding to God's plan by a work is heresy. This is a sin that should be confessed and turned away from. Please do not harden your heart to this.

You just wrote in post 2573 :
"I did not say what you just said, as I leave all death and life situations up to the Lord. And if the Lord decides to have mercy on that person which I think He will, as what was shown by the thief on the cross."


1 Corinthians 14:33 | Read whole chapter | See verse in context For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

James 3:16 | Read whole chapter | See verse in context For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.

Once again I am not adding anything, as to say baptism by being immersed in water is not needed would be taking away from His word. Which God in His Word says that is just as bad;

Deuteronomy 4:2
Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Matthew 28:19-20
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 10:47
Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?


Peter makes a point here that no man can forbid what the Lord commanded by baptism..................

 

[passinthru]

Just to clear up post 2573


Originally Posted by kennethcadwell

Yes the law was not perfect because man is flawed.
The law could not save or change any man by themselves, for we all fall short of the glory of God.
Now under a new more glorious covenant we have the remission of sin given to us by our Lords blood, that is received after repentance and baptism, and then confession on future sins. We also are given the Holy Spirit as a guide and helper to walk in His commandments, as we are no alone this time to do it by ourselves.

passinthru said:

I spoke at a church this morning and a man who was somewhat rough around the edges accepted Christ. He will get baptized in water at some point. But for you to say that this man is destined to hell if he passes away before he is Baptised is heresy.

Posted by kennethcadwell
I did not say what you just said, as I leave all death and life situations up to the Lord. And if the Lord decides to have mercy on that person which I think He will, as what was shown by the thief on the cross.

But at the same time, to be born again is through baptism. And the Lord is the one who said if you are not born again you will not enter the kingdom of heaven, not me. So you can take that up to Him in prayer, for He is the one who said no born again person will enter the kingdom of heaven. Born again is done through baptism, as both Peter and Paul show.
When you are immersed in water you are buried into His death, and then you are raised into the Spirit as a symbol of His resurrection. Then you are given remission of sins, if the person is not given the chance to be baptized before they die I believe the Lord will have mercy on them. But if a person has plenty of time to get baptized, and they still refuse to do it then they are violating a direct command from the Lord.


1 Peter 3:20-21

20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

 

[Mitspa]

Once again I am not adding anything, as to say baptism by being immersed in water is not needed would be taking away from His word. Which God in His Word says that is just as bad;

Deuteronomy 4:2
Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Matthew 28:19-20
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 10:47
Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?


Peter makes a point here that no man can forbid what the Lord commanded by baptism..................

You mean like this? Paul must not have been as religious as you are?

1Co 1:17 ¶ For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel:

Baptism is a type -picture of salvation ...the answer of a good conscience ....

 

[passinthru]

post 2582"

I,passinthru wrote:
WATER Baptism is a precious thing. Recently a water baptism was taking place and a man who no one knew came over off the street and asked to be baptized. Praise God! A few years ago during a prison ministry meeting we baptized 30 plus inmates. Praise God. But for anyone to say that someone is not eligible through the blood of Jesus to be with the one who they just accepted as savior for eternity is heresy! I did mention it earlier, my brother,that when one accepts Christ sincerely into their life they are at that moment technically baptized into Christ. I trust that you , who I feel has a sincere desire to please God, will trust God to show you that adding to God's plan by a work is heresy. This is a sin that should be confessed and turned away from. Please do not harden your heart to this.

Please take your time and copy and paste or whatever but as it was responded to it looked like you said what I said.

 

[newbirth]

Yes the law was not perfect because man is flawed.
The law could not save or change any man by themselves, for we all fall short of the glory of God.
Now under a new more glorious covenant we have the remission of sin given to us by our Lords blood, that is received after repentance and baptism, and then confession on future sins. We also are given the Holy Spirit as a guide and helper to walk in His commandments, as we are no alone this time to do it by ourselves.

Philippians 4:13
I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Those who say they still can not keep and follow the 10 Commandments, put restrictions and limitations on God, and are not showing love to the Lord our God. As the first and greatest commandment declares........

why do you say the law is not perfect? man is flawed because of Adam not because of the law...the law simply point out man's flaws...and it does a pretty good job...

 

[passinthru]

KENNETH the way you are reposting things make it seem like I said what you said...please look at it and fix it. Thanks

 

[Mitspa]

post 2582"

I,passinthru wrote:
WATER Baptism is a precious thing. Recently a water baptism was taking place and a man who no one knew came over off the street and asked to be baptized. Praise God! A few years ago during a prison ministry meeting we baptized 30 plus inmates. Praise God. But for anyone to say that someone is not eligible through the blood of Jesus to be with the one who they just accepted as savior for eternity is heresy! I did mention it earlier, my brother,that when one accepts Christ sincerely into their life they are at that moment technically baptized into Christ. I trust that you , who I feel has a sincere desire to please God, will trust God to show you that adding to God's plan by a work is heresy. This is a sin that should be confessed and turned away from. Please do not harden your heart to this.

Please take your time and copy and paste or whatever but as it was responded to it looked like you said what I said.

He does this all the time....another one of those who claim to uphold the law not to bear false witness.... He cant help himself ...the strength of sin is the law.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Just to clear up post 2573


Originally Posted by kennethcadwell

Yes the law was not perfect because man is flawed.
The law could not save or change any man by themselves, for we all fall short of the glory of God.
Now under a new more glorious covenant we have the remission of sin given to us by our Lords blood, that is received after repentance and baptism, and then confession on future sins. We also are given the Holy Spirit as a guide and helper to walk in His commandments, as we are no alone this time to do it by ourselves.

What did you clear up, as in my original post did I say somebody was destined to hell like you claimed.
That was you reading more into what I said, as I do not condemn others. What I do is warn believers just like Paul warned us about sins, and told us exactly what we have to abstain from. And Paul said these things multiple times, so if sins can not be imputed on believers before they are repented or confessed of as Mitspa teaches. All those warnings by Paul to believers were worthless then. Paul even warns Timothy who was another apostle that he can still become impure again do to sin. Now that can not be possible if future sins are automatically covered before confession of them.
That teaching of future sins already forgiven and covered before confession is contradictory to the bible, and makes Paul out to be a liar.........

 

[kennethcadwell]

why do you say the law is not perfect? man is flawed because of Adam not because of the law...the law simply point out man's flaws...and it does a pretty good job...

Because of mans flaws the mosaic laws could not save or change the evil nature of man, so in a way it was not perfect and found with fault.
Only what the Lord did for us could save us from our ways, and the Holy Spirit that is now with us to guide us keeps us walking properly in order to keep His commandments.

 

[passinthru]

why do you say the law is not perfect? man is flawed because of Adam not because of the law...the law simply point out man's flaws...and it does a pretty good job...

Amen! The law was the schoolmaster to show how man was not capable of keeping it. The practice of the law also got flawed by man. Religious pride is a tough nut to crack. Decent people do dumb things due to deception which is human. Jesus went after the money changers, He was constantly on the case of the religious zealots of the day....he was hassled by them for vaious things like healing on the Sabbath and so forth. We see the same human nature in the church today and even here.

 

[Mitspa]

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

what part of "will not" impute sin do you not understand?


Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

1Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

 

[Mitspa]

Got get my thread back on track....the debate is law and grace! not baptism!

Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


1Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

 

[passinthru]

What did you clear up, as in my original post did I say somebody was destined to hell like you claimed.
That was you reading more into what I said, as I do not condemn others. What I do is warn believers just like Paul warned us about sins, and told us exactly what we have to abstain from. And Paul said these things multiple times, so if sins can not be imputed on believers before they are repented or confessed of as Mitspa teaches. All those warnings by Paul to believers were worthless then. Paul even warns Timothy who was another apostle that he can still become impure again do to sin. Now that can not be possible if future sins are automatically covered before confession of them.
That teaching of future sins already forgiven and covered before confession is contradictory to the bible, and makes Paul out to be a liar.........

Look at the posts above and you will see that who posted what is confusing. You'll see what I mean.

 

[kennethcadwell]

He does this all the time....another one of those who claim to uphold the law not to bear false witness.... He cant help himself ...the strength of sin is the law.

Well I am sorry but baptism is not the work that is spoke about when it comes to salvation.
Those works that are not to be done is those that are done to earn salvation, or those done to try to be saved by keeping all the 613 mosaic laws that do not save either.
Repentance, baptism (born again), forgiveness, and doing for other in need (works of love) were all commanded by the Lord. And none of them did He separate from salvation, so what give us the right to do so. We don't have the right !!!

 

[Mitspa]

well start a baptism thread! This is a law and grace thread

 

[kennethcadwell]

Look at the posts above and you will see that who posted what is confusing. You'll see what I mean.

Yeah, I know I saw that.
I was just responding to the part that I did not condemn nobody, and the other thing I did not do is add or take away from what He said. I showed from scripture that baptism commanded in Matthew 28:19 and Mark 16:16 is immersion in water, and Peter makes that clear in Acts 10:47.

 

[newbirth]

Because of mans flaws the mosaic laws could not save or change the evil nature of man, so in a way it was not perfect and found with fault.
Only what the Lord did for us could save us from our ways, and the Holy Spirit that is now with us to guide us keeps us walking properly in order to keep His commandments.

you have to think things through bro...you would be saying Christ fulfilled an imperfect law....and men would be judged by an imperfect law...that is injustice....and God gave the whole of Israel an imperfect law and asked them to be perfect...

 

[passinthru]

What did you clear up, as in my original post did I say somebody was destined to hell like you claimed.
That was you reading more into what I said, as I do not condemn others. What I do is warn believers just like Paul warned us about sins, and told us exactly what we have to abstain from. And Paul said these things multiple times, so if sins can not be imputed on believers before they are repented or confessed of as Mitspa teaches. All those warnings by Paul to believers were worthless then. Paul even warns Timothy who was another apostle that he can still become impure again do to sin. Now that can not be possible if future sins are automatically covered before confession of them.
That teaching of future sins already forgiven and covered before confession is contradictory to the bible, and makes Paul out to be a liar.........

Okay now To address this post.
Man who says he has no sin is deceived. When we have known sin we should confess it ....if we do not we will not be able to live within God's will as he desires us to. Unconfessed sin can have serious consequesnces in this lifetime although it is not a ticket to hell! Did Paul have sin? Yes. He said he did. "
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.[SUP]8[/SUP] But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
[SUP]9[/SUP] For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
[SUP]10[/SUP] And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
[SUP]11[/SUP] For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
[SUP]12[/SUP] Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
[SUP]13[/SUP] Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
[SUP]14[/SUP] For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
[SUP]15[/SUP] For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
[SUP]16[/SUP] If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
[SUP]17[/SUP] Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
[SUP]18[/SUP] For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
[SUP]19[/SUP] For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
[SUP]20[/SUP] Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
[SUP]21[/SUP] I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
[SUP]22[/SUP] For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
[SUP]23[/SUP] But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
[SUP]24[/SUP] O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
[SUP]25[/SUP] I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

[newbirth]

Amen! The law was the schoolmaster to show how man was not capable of keeping it. The practice of the law also got flawed by man. Religious pride is a tough nut to crack. Decent people do dumb things due to deception which is human. Jesus went after the money changers, He was constantly on the case of the religious zealots of the day....he was hassled by them for vaious things like healing on the Sabbath and so forth. We see the same human nature in the church today and even here.

have to agree with you here.....