The 'ELECT' vs 'Free-Choice'

[Genez]

Problems with Calvinism

Calvinists believe God has pre-determined who will go to hell and who will go to heaven.

Basically, the Calvinist will explain to you that God creates some to go to heaven and some to go to hell. No one has any choice in the matter. Of course this flies in the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ. In fact, it also creates a problem with the Old Testament since throughtout the OT, the Israelites are told to choose. God says over and over again, choose whom you will serve.

God has not shape shifted into something different than how He represents Himself in the OT. According to scripture, God does not change who He is. When Moses asked His name, God replied I AM THAT I AM, present tense. God is constant. He does not change.

For I am the LORD, I do not change; Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob Malachi 3:6

Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. James 1:17

and God is not willing for anyone to die and go to hell. He did not create some humans to go to hell. That is a smear on the character of God.

8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. II Peter 3: 8-9

God did not "predetermine."
God was simply able to determine what the outcome will be once He created all souls in His omniscience.
Calvinists trip over their shoe laces when dealing with that..

The key to this enigma I believe is found here!

When the Lord God in Heaven decided to make Himself to become as a man? (Philippians 2:6-8)
He revealed that the Son has a unique ability to unhitch His soul from the Omniscience of His Deity.

That factor was revealed to us right here.... Luke 2:52.

And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man." ​

God can not grow in wisdom nor stature with God!

That is the golden key!

For if Jesus was able to make Himself be as a man?
Not to be functioning in His attributes of Deity?
In that same manner God could have set forth the Son, in that state of mind,
to create all souls and everything in creation, without knowing who would believe, or reject!
For all things were created *through* Him!

Then after doing that? And having granted every soul their own free will without interference?
Then returned to functioning in His attributes (omniscience) of God as to determine what was to
become of all angels and men that he had created in his mind without the knowledge of who would reject Him.

That is the Key to understanding how God created all to have free will.
For when He was creating all angels and men in his mind? His only desire
was for all of them to know the same love He has for the Father!

Selah! .... freedom!

 

[Genez]

nah. I have had a good number of discussions with him and this is what he does. I have been here longer than my profile suggests because I have left and come back more than once. He has been here since 2018 and I have been here since about then also

his reply was par for the way some Calvinist will respond

he knows full well what he is doing but now he might have an excuse

I was not misunderstood. I'm going to leave the thread because I have participated in enough Calvin doctrine threads to be somewhat sickened by and of them by now

but I should know that when one is gone another will take up the empty place and I'm not playing

Thanks

Calvinists are mechanical thinkers....

Its like fighting robots....

Don't give up yet, please.

 

[Niki7]

You did not have to discuss it with him.

Might be?

He simply could not wait to tell others what he was told is truth, and picked you to drop it on.

Or, he just misunderstood you somehow?

must give a benefit of a doubt until a trend can be established.

I am going to revisit this post...

maybe you should give me the benefit of the doubt and understand I know what I am talking about and who I am talking to and I know what they are really all about

did you not understand the things he was saying? did I write something not from scripture to back up my reply?

quite honestly, I am taken aback how you see things but that is your choice of course. I had asked that people ignore the person who kept causing trouble but you chose to answer and just kept it going. I did not see where you got anywhere.

but now you can continue to argue Calvinsim. Kindly leave off personal remarks to me. I have left them off where you are concerned because I saw you were determined to do your own thing and that's fine.

Personally, I find it so much more condusive to peace and all around a better atmosphere when we do not goad people with our responses such as God will straighten you out. I do not talk to people that way.

As far as Calvinsim goes though, it is a doctrine supposedly from scripture and I will answer from scripture while denyng the false responses.

 

[Niki7]

Calvinists are mechanical thinkers....

Its like fighting robots....

Don't give up yet, please.

did you not read where I have had my fill of debates about Calvinism?

now you say I am giving up? How about you read what I actually post instead of interpreting it

honest to pete

 

[Genez]

did you not read where I have had my fill of debates about Calvinism?

now you say I am giving up? How about you read what I actually post instead of interpreting it

honest to pete

The best answers can come right about when it gets like this.
How do you think the Jews felt when their backs were to the sea and saw pharaoh and his army of chariots relentlessly heading towards them? God's solution appears when we think its hopeless.

 

[Niki7]

The best answers can come right about when it gets like this.
How do you think the Jews felt when their backs were to the sea and saw pharaoh and his army of chariots relentlessly heading towards them? God's solution appears when we think its hopeless.

what are you talking about?

let me make this plainer. I did not appreciate the way you were talking to the fellow who was banned...but that was your choice

nothing you said led to him being banned even if you think so. I thought you were out of place but I am not responsible for you.

I have no clue what situation you are referring to. I think you might be looking to attach yourself to someone again and tell them which way is up.

I assure you that I am not that person nor do I have a situation going on.

smh

 

[Genez]

what are you talking about?

let me make this plainer. I did not appreciate the way you were talking to the fellow who was banned...but that was your choice

nothing you said led to him being banned even if you think so. I thought you were out of place but I am not responsible for you.

I have no clue what situation you are referring to. I think you might be looking to attach yourself to someone again and tell them which way is up.

I assure you that I am not that person nor do I have a situation going on.

smh

well then? .... have a NICE DAY.... Sorry you choose to feel that way.

 

[Niki7]

well then? .... have a NICE DAY.... Sorry you choose to feel that way.

sorry, but you do not tell me how I choose to feel

and this thread has lost its way and does not need to be devoted to Calvinism

it served a purpose and it was a single minded purpose even though it went all over the place

you chose to ignore the rest of us saying we are not going to co-operate with a certain person, so you helped that person to continue

see, I would normally not point that out, but here I make an exception

I will have the day the Lord has blessed me with. Thank you.

God is good. All the time.

 

[Genez]

sorry, but you do not tell me how I choose to feel

and this thread has lost its way and does not need to be devoted to Calvinism

it served a purpose and it was a single minded purpose even though it went all over the place

you chose to ignore the rest of us saying we are not going to co-operate with a certain person, so you helped that person to continue

see, I would normally not point that out, but here I make an exception

I will have the day the Lord has blessed me with. Thank you.

God is good. All the time.

Have a nice day.... And, you hope you read more carefully to realize I was only making a suggestion.

 

[Genez]

I am going to revisit this post...

maybe you should give me the benefit of the doubt and understand I know what I am talking about and who I am talking to and I know what they are really all about

The door swings both ways ..

Give me what you asked for as well.

 

[John146]

Isaiah 65:24​

​

Before they call I will answer;​

while they are yet speaking I will hear.​

​

God alone has this capacity and ability...
Its foreign to our ways of doing things.
That is why we need to grow in grace and knowledge,
so we do not walk around in a daze trying to adjust
without knowing what's going on.

Isaiah 55:8​

​

The Lord says, “My thoughts are not like your thoughts.​

Your ways are not like my ways.​

False doctrine finds its appeal in the ways and thoughts of men being attributed to God....

grace and peace ........

God responded to the prayer of Hezekiah and many others.

 

[Genez]

what are you talking about?

let me make this plainer. I did not appreciate the way you were talking to the fellow who was banned...but that was your choice

nothing you said led to him being banned even if you think so. I thought you were out of place but I am not responsible for you.

I have no clue what situation you are referring to. I think you might be looking to attach yourself to someone again and tell them which way is up.

I assure you that I am not that person nor do I have a situation going on.

smh

What brought that on?
I never made such a claim..

If I had? Show me, please.

 

[Genez]

did you not read where I have had my fill of debates about Calvinism?

But there was something else that was shared that you had not seen before...

Something that you have not had your fill of yet.

You misunderstood my intentions.

I did not want you to go back over the same old threadbare arguments to drag you back in...

This post takes a different tack... https://christianchat.com/threads/the-elect-vs-free-choice.214939/post-5296758

No one here has presented it, and no CALVINISTS has an argument against it.

It resolves their conflict...

 

[Genez]

God responded to the prayer of Hezekiah and many others.

Yes.... But what Jesus told the disciples was to pertain to the Church age.
We do not function the same way as OT believers. They did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit like we do.

"For it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose." Philippians 2:13​

When we are controlled by the filling of the Spirit? If we are being filled?

We are being led into what God wants us to pray for.

OT believers did not have that ability granted to them. They just prayed what the felt, even though when we pray we may feel what we are to pray for.

​

 

[ForestGreenCook]

pardon me there Forest, but you will never understand how sure a person's actual salvation is until you understand how they got there in the first place which is not through an OT prophecy given through Ezekiel.

Again, I know you are a Calvinist...and your main intent around the forum seems to be to attempt to indoctrinate any and all because let's face it, this forum can be, to some people, an ideal place to get on a soapbox and put themself on blast to a captive audience

the UNSAVED person does not understand spiritual things....does not mean a person is prefilled with the Spirit of God so they can accept Christ.



and here we have Calvinism at it's best worst. A dyed in the wool Calvinist will tell you that non-Calvinists believe they save themselves because they are not saved through irresistable grace, but here, we see who really teaches that a person saves themself.

no Forest. we are not filled with the Holy Spirit in order to enable us to accept Christ. that is not to be found in scripture anywhere whatsoever. the Holy Spirit seals a person when they accept Christ.

In Christ you also were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and when you believed. The Holy Spirit is the down payment of our inheritance, until the redemption of the possession, to the praise of his glory. Ephesians 1:13-14

The natural man, according to 1 Cor 2:14, cannot receive the things of the Spirit, until he has been quickened to a new spiritual life, thinking them to be foolishness.

Jesus gives us the example, in 1 Pet 3:18, when he died for the sins, of those that God gave him, He was quickened by the Spirit.

In being born again, as explained in Ephesians 2:1, we are quickened when we were dead in trespasses and sins. The Holy Spirit is a quickening Spirit.

In Ephesians 1:13-14, only God's sheep hear his voice (John 10:26-29). Those in Ephesians 14, who were already quickened by the Spirit, and are now confirmed by the Spirit of promise of their inheritance of eternal heaven

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Problems with Calvinism

Calvinists believe God has pre-determined who will go to hell and who will go to heaven.

Basically, the Calvinist will explain to you that God creates some to go to heaven and some to go to hell. No one has any choice in the matter. Of course this flies in the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ. In fact, it also creates a problem with the Old Testament since throughtout the OT, the Israelites are told to choose. God says over and over again, choose whom you will serve.

God has not shape shifted into something different than how He represents Himself in the OT. According to scripture, God does not change who He is. When Moses asked His name, God replied I AM THAT I AM, present tense. God is constant. He does not change.

For I am the LORD, I do not change; Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob Malachi 3:6

Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. James 1:17

and God is not willing for anyone to die and go to hell. He did not create some humans to go to hell. That is a smear on the character of God.

8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. II Peter 3: 8-9

It amazes me as to what lengths a person will go to to affirm their belief that their good works is what saves them eternally.

If only they would interpret the scriptures correctly, and realize that the scriptures do teach that the good works of those that already have the promise of an eternal inheritance can save=deliver them as they sojourn here on earth.

Salvation=deliverance, saved=delivered, and save=deliver, according to Strong's concordance

2 Pet 3:8; "his promise=divine assurance", according to Strong's concordance. We have to go back to 2 Pet 1:1 to find out to whom Peter is talking to, and it is to them that have obtained like precious faith. Peter is warning them the importance of repenting when they commit a sin, even including himself by using the word "us-ward". Telling them that when they commit a sin, it separates them from their fellowship with God, temporary, until they repent. Perish=death=separation.

James 1:14-15 - But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

nah. I have had a good number of discussions with him and this is what he does. I have been here longer than my profile suggests because I have left and come back more than once. He has been here since 2018 and I have been here since about then also

his reply was par for the way some Calvinist will respond

he knows full well what he is doing but now he might have an excuse

I was not misunderstood. I'm going to leave the thread because I have participated in enough Calvin doctrine threads to be somewhat sickened by and of them by now

but I should know that when one is gone another will take up the empty place and I'm not playing

Thanks

This kind of comment is typical when a believer in eternal deliverance by works cannot harmonize the scriptures. I have empathy for them, because I was also blinded to see the truth, until I denied my own ability to understand it at the age of 72, and realized that no one is capable to understand the truth of the scriptures until the Holy Spirit within a person reveals it.

 

[Genez]

It amazes me as to what lengths a person will go to to affirm their belief that their good works is what saves them eternally.

They think good works will save them because they do not know the one who is to save them.


grace and peace ............

 

[Genez]

The natural man, according to 1 Cor 2:14, cannot receive the things of the Spirit, until he has been quickened to a new spiritual life, thinking them to be foolishness.

The natural man can not know heaven is real.
He can not understand the Deity of Christ.

But, the unregenerate man can know one thing.

That he is a sinner.

That is where salvation begins.

After salvation?

Then comes the spiritual truths that the natural man can not comprehend.

Its embarrassing how simple it is.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

The natural man can not know heaven is real.
He can not understand the Deity of Christ.

But, the unregenerate man can know one thing.

That he is a sinner.

That is where salvation begins.

After salvation?

Then comes the spiritual truths that the natural man can not comprehend.

Its embarrassing how simple it is.

I agree that the natural man can know that he breaks the laws that man has made, but he does not believe that there is a spiritual heaven, or anything else that is of a spiritual nature.